S5E02 · Simon Cooper

Alrighty beautiful people welcome back to the Virtus performance podcast we're on season five episode number two with the great man Simon Cooper now before I let him talk feel free to watch him while I pump his tires up for the next 30 to 45 seconds squirm for those that haven't met this man those that don't know the context and his uh incredible contribution to this place he's a former podcast host back in 2020 he's a former GM former performance coach former fellow student probably copied off you at some point throughout our uni course uh but

being an integral part of the Virtus family for almost a decade essentially a decade um was our biggest supporter before we opened and buying merch from overseas and all of the good things and and here we are five years on from our last foray into the podcast world Simon Cooper how the fuck are you it's bloody good to be here it's good to have you yeah it's good to be back in the back in the seat uh yeah what's been going on October 2020 was the last time we recorded a podcast together yeah and that

was when we did a 10 episode series on basically things to help you get through lockdown yeah we weren't sitting in the same room we're sitting staring at each other from a computer screen and life looked different it did look different and it looks a lot different now fill it fill the people in because I've obviously been privy to what's been happening but a lot of the people might not be give us a little snapshot into your last half decade half decade yeah um I'm a dad shout out to miles number one number one role

dad husband uh still a student probably um that might not go away yeah yeah I went back to uni for a little bit uh last year which was uh good I ticked another box um but uh you know I think the the theme probably the last definitely over the last five years has been uh I guess more contraction you know we spoke off air just before around expansion contraction and the seasons that we go through and uh the last five years has definitely been more of a contraction focus on self family um you know I've

stepped away from vertice uh in a formal capacity coward still which we love yeah still um hanging around here though picking things up on occasion yes uh on occasion is the key keyword there um yeah so um full-time full-time dad full-time husbands um have taken a a bit of a dive into the risk and safety space which is what I do for my day job at the moment um in outdoor ed which has been a really good learning curve not definitely not something that I thought I would be diving into um you know five years

ago yeah or even three years ago but uh that's been really rewarding uh it's been a really good challenge and it's been nice to uh as I said get back into that learning mindset um doing something different yeah yeah it's it's really interesting to hear you talk about the the contraction space because like and maybe it's just a maybe it's just a self-reflection and what and what maybe the two or three years look like beforehand right but in that five years you've shifted jobs you've progressed through the corporate ladder for lack of a better term

you've you've had a son you've you know learned what it is become a dad you've bought a house you've um you've you know managed friendships relationships business things all all of it you've presented to different groups um so like maybe the yeah contraction from a what it's felt like because it's just like it's a head down bum up time but i think it's been a pretty expansive few years for sure i mean there's definitely been a lot of uh milestones that have been passed along the way yeah yeah in terms of you know buying our

first house getting married um oh yeah we got henry yes we didn't have henry um our first baby uh so there's definitely been a lot of life goals ticked off and i'm sure that we've done some goal setting in the last few years where i can look back and say yeah i've done done all those things which you you know over a five-year period um a lot does can it does and can happen yeah that's only when you sort of look back that you can say yeah i've actually um moved the needle a little bit

um yeah in that time yes but at the time it definitely feels um slow and you know speaking parent to parent the um you know the days are long but the years are short put that on a t-shirt i was just thinking about that yeah it's what um how much miles now i feel like i say that every every week uh he is nearly three which we love yeah whatever the last so like obviously look look through it from maybe a what life was like beforehand lens but what what is the last three years of

being a dad like you know being there for for miles is your number one priority seeing him grow and develop and you know move forward in in his um in his development what's that taught you from a oh yeah from a lifelong health development perspective yeah yeah um it's been well i mean there's a bit to unpack there so i was no this is what it's all evil um i mean first of all so rewarding seeing him grow and develop and you know especially in these early years it's almost daily he does something different or

you um experience something new so i think that has been uh like the biggest learning curve for him and for us as parents to guide him through that um through that learning process and you know experiencing the world um it's been really awesome um challenging obviously and a lot of responsibility i think yeah in uh molding him and helping him guiding him to to grow and i'm sure that you know that will continue for the next ad nauseum for the next six years so it feels like my parents are still doing that to me sometimes

yeah um but i think personally it's meant that uh you know we've had to look inward and not not inward personally although that is a part of it but inward into just like our home and focus on loving and supporting him loving and supporting each other with sal and i and kind of prioritizing what is important to us and it's meant that we've had to give things up like you know probably focus more on our own family relationships than friendships and i guess we're fortunate that we've got a lot of friends going through similar stages

of life so you know everyone's kind of in the trenches doing their own thing but you kind of come together yes and spend meaningful um periods of time together there's also an understanding in those shared experiences right totally like yeah yeah we can't we we can't go out for bougie boy fridays every friday for you know yeah a wine or a beer and and spend three hours talking shit like it's like when you do carve out that time it's you know they're either few and far between or they're less uh they're less immersive as you'd

like them to be yes i was pretty happy with that but i think also you know we're going through a bit of a phase or a season now where we're starting to come out of our um out of our nest a little bit and try to carve out those times again uh where we can go out and you know um feed our own souls a little bit more rather than just giving yes uh like for example last weekend we went camping we did with the kiddos and um and our and our other son lilford shout

out jared phenomenal and uh sal didn't come along to that one she had a weekend to herself which was the first time that she'd had a weekend um without miles so which like almost three three years on like because you're in it you don't think about those things like yeah yeah you kind of forget like you've had you've had a couple and you know like i've had a few and but then you're like it's so different because you're you're both in need of it's it's this beautiful duality of parenting where you're both in need of

time and space and and separation and an absence in a way but then when you get when you get it all you want to do is be back with them um you know with allowing them to give you the shits and for sure and pull all of your life force out yeah so there is that that balance of being like okay well you know what do i need what does my family need um what do our what does our relationship need and being able to then yeah um you know action those things whilst the treadmill

of existence keeps feeling like it's going a little bit faster every day yeah yeah that balance piece you know it's starting to i feel like we're kind of getting starting to move into that space a bit where we're getting the balance maybe not right i don't know if like there's a right balance yeah um and maybe balance is the wrong word for it but we've talked about in the past it's like that pendulum effect right it's like when you go too hard to one side you you you tend to over correct and go too hard

to the other yeah the goal of life i think is you're never going to be yeah have that balance smack bang in the middle of being able to have that sway of your pendulum as as um as minimal as possible so that you tick the boxes of what's most important for you at that time yeah yeah and that means that you have to be really clear on what is important to you and be able to um and deliberately set time and energy aside for those things yeah um how have you gone at articulating that that

purpose or that meaning for for what is most important for you over the last couple years yeah it's been i think it's been a challenge for sure um you know my training as an example has certainly dropped off to what compared to what i was doing four years ago um and that's not doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily a bad thing um i think you know minimum effective dough is still coming into the gym still moving still kind of ticking that box when i can yeah and if i'm not then i'm trying to do other things

like you know go for walks um and even those it's like the minimums that we've spoken a lot about it's what is the minimum uh either set of actions or tasks that i need to do every day to ensure that i'm still kind of moving forward or at least you know not moving backwards so going for walks and we've got we've got henry the dog so he is a very good reason to get moving you know a couple times a day at least um you know i'm trying to be really deliberate with how much water

i drink and the meals do you have do you have a handful of minimums at the moment you're following yeah is it as structured um yeah is it is it as structured as it has been no definitely not i think um i think journaling uh or even like record keeping is something that i've that's probably dropped away a bit over the last few years yeah and i kind of pick it up every now and then and do it for a little while and then it kind of falls off yeah um and that's kind of okay

i feel like something that i've really been thinking about lately is um the expectations that i put on myself to do things yeah um and that's not just from a health um you know health function performance lens but also from a relationship lens and uh you know career lens and you know what what are the things that i expect of myself that um maybe others don't expect and and am i being fair to myself um what's your like feedback loop for working through that and trying to articulate it because i guess it's so hard because

so much you're like is this imagined or is it real yeah i think um it's something that i've sort of again it's been challenging me lately and particularly in this you know personally we've gone through a period of transition of the last six months where there's been a lot of um unsettledness at home and at work and yeah kind of across the board so um it's kind of it's been a an impetus to focus on this thank you good word yeah so and and again deliberately carve out time to reflect on it so you know

i've got started some therapy um which has been helpful um was was there a uh uh honestly a moment but was there because obviously there's a process of readiness that you have to go through right yeah i think it's something that we've that that we have spoken about and i've been thinking about doing for a long time yeah less so from a um probably for me less so from a mental health perspective and more from a performance perspective i've kind of been on that other end of the the scale where i'm chasing growth and that

high performance and therapy could have been could be a way to um continue sharpening the sword but i feel like lately with all the change that we've been going through it's been more of a a tool to support my own health which then allows me to support the people around me and etc so the yeah definitely the last six months it's been it's been pretty challenging so that's kind of been the um the catalyst for seeking some help yeah um and kind of going external was it difficult like you've always been someone super from my

perspective super self-aware super capable of explaining what's going on how you're feeling hey responding to things so like did you have that internal friction of like this is difficult yeah i think so i think the the friction was that my narrative to myself is i am um capable i've got a i've got a great capacity to deal with and cope with stress uh and change and it was maybe a little bit difficult for me to acknowledge that now like it's gone above my capacity to cope so uh so it's meant that i've had to look

at other ways outside of my usual strategies to manage my capacity yeah so i think um you know seeking mental um help with my mental health still trying to tick some boxes for my physical health um creating some space for myself from the things that are stressing me has also been helpful so it's kind of it's definitely like a multi-faceted approach and i think it's like both of those things can be true right you can both be super capable super self-aware sure like yep like you know have the capacity to look after yourself and make

better decisions and all of those kind of things and both need help and or want to engage in help at the same time right you don't necessarily you know it's not one or the other it's not like you know everything's great or uncooked it's you know yeah it's this spectrum of of when we know better we do better sometimes having a level of accountability someone external to our existence to you know discuss things with because yeah like i first jumped on the the therapy train um which is a good train to be on by the

way um it would have been i reckon yeah like 2019 2020 maybe i reckon it was before i do think it was before covid um i had a handful of um of sessions and it was it was through that lens hey everything's going pretty good but i just want to make sure that yeah you know i'm you know optimally looking after what i'm doing and how i am and and i'm able to build my capacity to be more and give more whereas your um i don't have to tell you this but you jumping back you

jumping into it was a catalyst for me um booking a a gpe appointment for a few weeks time as a yeah as the expectations both real and imagined on ourselves and other people and responsibilities of mortgages and real jobs and and dogs and kids and you know there's a lot of legs that are that you are responsible for in my shape or form right as those yeah responsibilities and stresses for like a better term build and grow and develop we need more capacity to be able to give our best um yeah i think that's one

of the things that potentially has the capacity to help significantly yeah again i think it's like that expansion contraction piece where you um expand your container to and your capacity to do things and to manage stresses but then if that becomes overwhelming then you kind of contract and your container almost becomes a little bit smaller so you need to um change your approach and put more tools in your toolbox um and you know gather your allies around you to support you like six buzzwords in the last six years you're like that you just fucking ticket

all the ones yeah but that but that's i think that's that's it it's almost and i think because i've always like whenever we talk contraction expansion and you know for those playing at home essentially it's like usually where majority of our life we're in a contraction phase where it's like all right i need to go insular i need to just focus i need to you know simplify reduce for anyone just seeing the bear reduce reduce um or you're in the opposite which is like that you know i want to grow and i learn i want

to listen i want to read i want to consume um and both are you know uh helpful in their own ways and you know i reckon there's a third phase where it's where it's just like i'm just wanna status quo sure tick the boxes but then the more i think about it especially now a lot our lives are so much more complex um by choice mostly um they're so much more complex that you're almost like contraction expansion um in different areas of our lives like you know we've used the five star matrix over the years

being uh health wealth career relationships and something else shit health wealth career relationships environment environment um being able to measure where we're at in each of those and i think you can be in you know you might be in a contraction phase with with work but an expansion phase with family and you know contraction with training and being able to build a level of awareness through your journaling through your conversations through beers with the boys the most helpful through through therapy whatever it is is all of them are things that help move you forward yep

yep the i think that you need to have a level of self-awareness to recognize what phase you're in in those different areas um because without that self awareness then you end up trying to pour from an empty cup and you quickly run into uh i guess barriers or blocks because of that and you know that and then we get into burnout territory or territory where we can't can't cope um yes and so that self-awareness piece is um i guess something i've been thinking about lately especially having some extra space to be able to reflect on

what i want what i can do and um where i want to direct my energy um and that self-awareness i don't know if that's like a life just something that builds as you move through life i'm sure there are ways i mean there definitely are ways that you can build that self awareness but yeah as your life changes and evolves then your your level of awareness needs to evolve with it yeah i mean my like my experience is there's something about being in your 30s and almost like it's wild hey and almost being in that

space where you're like because in your 20s it's all it's so much of it is expansion right it's like what am i going to do for work what do i give a shit about what's important to me where are my values like you know what do i want my life to look like whereas you know obviously timing doesn't matter some people land land a certain place in their 20s some people's 30s some people's 40s some people's 50s it doesn't necessarily matter but like you would you know you would have had um whether it be conscious

or subconscious thoughts of around like okay like i want to you know i want to marry the love of my life tick done get around her um also tick um i want to start a family i want to you know have four legs that loves me unconditionally i want to i want to have a house a home that i can you know put down roots and you would have had those thoughts and then when you get it you're kind of like okay well i know what's important to me now i know that life is more

difficult both real and imagined like you know you have real responsibilities and then it's almost like you almost have to relearn a lot of the lessons that you learn in your 20s again in terms of like okay what do i need right now what's important to me where am i putting my time and energy because you know there's no you know you've got significantly more to do now significantly more boxes to tick from a responsibility standpoint but still the same 168 hours in the week you know there's you've got to figure out it's almost like

there's more choices around like yes or no um you know what do we used to say like you say say yes to one thing you say no to everything else and saying no to one thing gives you the capacity to say yes to anything else yeah yeah um it's the loop right like we're just going through endless iterations of the loop in order to progress and move move forward put that on the wall um you know we are immensely privileged to be able to have said that we can we've ticked those boxes and um clocked

it oh for yeah like grateful yeah to have to be in the position where we are where we can you know have this conversation and yes um so i guess that that perspective is really um useful to hold but you're right at the same time we need to continue setting goals and continue you know moving through the loop goals problems diagnosis design yeah it's just it's just that having the capacity for feedback um yeah that allows us to either continue on or do something differently that allows us to to be better like like with vertice

hitting 10 years you know a couple of months ago a month or so ago get around us um wouldn't happen without you so thank you um like it's it's given me a like a reflection piece on like like so many lessons i've had to relearn six or seven times or maybe two or three times for most of them and you know around what's important things like that and it's almost like you said before you kind of feel like you're coming out the other side of the parenting um space not parenting space but the parenting um

struggles because it's always difficult right the problems just change as they get bigger the problems get bigger but the i the way i feel like we're a couple of years ahead of you guys in terms of like lucy's almost six billy's four i almost feel like the it's easier that you do get some capacity back sorry if anyone's in the trenches right now i promise you you'll feel like you get the capacity back we see you yeah it's days where you're like this is never going to be the same again and it isn't but it's

you almost like come out of it i feel and this is the like um the times of struggle upon reflection will strike you as the most beautiful it's it allows you to kind of get out the other side and go okay well i know how much more capable i am now um i know how much you know i still have days where i'll crack the shit to the girls or get grumpy at myself or not do the thing i said i would do but the capacity to overcome that reflect on it move forward i feel

as though for me and you know i've seen it for you is so much so much more um and now you know i feel i feel like i'm going through a little renaissance great renaissance with my own health and well-being now that i've got a little bit more space it's like you know it's it's so much easier to stay ready than to get ready so being able to build that capacity back health and well-being wise like there is a a trade-off it might be less time with the girls or it might be less time with

kp after the girls go to bed or it might be less time at work but yeah like these yeah for me the last 12 months has been like a you know i need to carve out time for myself because otherwise like i'm a worst dad i'm a worst husband i'm a worst worst boss i'm a worst coach of vertice if i'm not looking after myself both from like a physical perspective but also from a mental perspective and like the expectations piece because if you're setting this expectation that i need to be in peak performance peak

shape yes uh and i keep failing at that then you know you're beating yourself up um it's not helpful for you it's not helpful for the people around you and so it's about it's kind of the balance piece of like setting realistic expectations and realistic goals with uh the practices that will help you reach them yeah right yeah and i think the like the feedback loop that we've used for a long time is those four questions from yeah from old mate cam swab um like what does winning look like what do we need to be

good or better at uh what do we need to do and then how we know like how we know yeah because essentially what what we're talking about is they're like what does winning look like like most people don't know exactly what they want or they don't take the time and this is my opinion having many conversations with a lot of you guys they don't take the time to cut to figure out okay what is it that i'm actually working towards is it you know fitter faster healthier is it more space is it better time management

you know all these things and and then you when if you know where you're going and you have a pretty good idea of where you're at the what do i need to do oh sorry what i need to be better at or good at goes okay well i need to be better at you know integrity doing what i said i would do or showing up to the gym or yeah um you know or carving out you know what my week looks like on a sunday and then the doing is easy because you just like i

said before you know hit your sessions drink your water hydrate like we did a podcast episode on the big rocks um you'll be able to search back which is essentially just like and it's almost annoying that this shit that we've been talking about for 15 years not easy simple simple is is the most important stuff it's like nail your sleep and yes there's controllables and uncontrollables which is a whole other conversation but now you sleep manage your stress levels so that the stress is a is good stress you know make sure you've got the adaptation

side of that hydration nutrition um you know time with people you love and then essentially like you're 80 of the way there from having the capacity and the container to be able to do and be what you want yeah yeah really personally the real challenging piece it's not an information problem like you know coming back to we've spoken about this before around you know loken gilbrick and shout out adaptive versus technical challenges it's not an information problem we have all the information that we need to just our chatty chatty muy muy what you need to

do yeah chatty g wasn't a thing when we no imagine if it was that would be during covid yeah um so it's not it's not an information problem it is a um is an action problem really right and that's the challenge to hold yourself accountable to delivering on what you want to and say you're going to do and i think you know and that's the the hardest thing that i struggle with um yeah so it's about putting structures and systems in place to uh outsource yeah and that's all and probably another element of that is

almost like which i think i think and and the more i reflect on it and a lot of the conversation i've had lately have all been centered around like you know making sure that the the reason you're doing it is the right reason or the the thing that you're wanting to do you've got a really clear justification for it um you know i've been using the i've been using the analogy a lot lately of like before we cut down the tree make sure we sharpen wait make sure we spend some time sharpening the axe but

i think almost the most important part of that is like make sure you're cutting down the right tree because so many of us have these assumptions around what we want and you know a lot of them are uh driven by societal expectations around you know maybe uh around certain wealth things or you know like new cars or big jobs or fan you know all of these things and we end up carving out too much space for the hunt for those things and not enough time for the things that actually fill us up like personally you

know you see you have that like comparison trap which i think i'm pretty good at most of the time because you know i've thought about these things and we've had these feedback loops through through the conversations but you're almost like you know can you look at oh what's this other person doing or what's this other dad doing or how are they doing this or things like that and it's really hard to you know there's almost a dissonance between like if we don't have this self-awareness of like what my life looks like versus what i want

it to look like um and you know that gap is almost like for some people it's it's fast it's it's um you know here's what i want to be or here's where i expect to be but here's where i'm at where in reality like we have everything we need right here right now um if we just shift the perspective to like you know we mentioned at the start like how far you've come over the last five years yeah what's actually happened um you know everything costs twice as much and takes twice as long as you

want it to yeah and when we realize that and we go okay well fuck life's actually pretty wonderful when i am present show up for myself and yep and move forward yeah what's it saying you overestimate what you can do in you know in three months and underestimate what you can do in a year yeah yeah so it's like create those big ambitious audacious goals for yourself and uh reverse engineer that to where you are now um and i think that's a good process to go through to yeah identify you know because you've got these

two anchors you know the the thing that you want the person you want to be and you've really clearly if you have really clearly identified or articulated what that is then you can work your way backwards what it what is it that you do to better articulate what that is personally the the outcome yeah the outcome being almost like what it is that you want which doesn't necessarily have to be you know a particular thing or a particular outcome it can be a an ideal i don't know what i want no one knows what they

fucking want um happiness sleep but and this is almost like the the part i love about this conversation like is the unknown of all the like you know the the articulation of of that because it doesn't matter what you say it's like you know sure you can have anything you want not everything you want make your choice and get on with it because hypothetically if you go i want the you know i want the fancy new car okay you know what do i need to be good or better at saving some cash maybe you know

and you know what do i need to do i need to you know have a plan on saving the x amount of money that takes by the car and then the how will i know well i'll have ticked off those certain certain milestones and you get to the end of that and you're like fuck i really didn't want the car but the process of becoming and doing those things and carving out those actions as long as we live day to day in a way that is supported by our values that you know it aligns with

you know what what is what our principles are and you know is allows us to be the best version of self and it doesn't matter if you get there and you're like i didn't like the car you know insert any arbitrary goal goal there but i think it's like it's it's being it's about being and this is the self-awareness conversation that'll probably come up every time we have one of these conversations but the more self-aware you are the better you are at understanding yourself and the better you are at reflecting on you know the thoughts

that i've got occupy and i got i got i fell into a little bit of a little bit of a rabbit hole alan what's rabbit hole last week existential which we love around um around consciousness and and the self and you know i got into the the um and you know look look this diagram up because it's fascinating the uh the um the jungian um carl jung his his uh his diagram of self which is essentially you know you can look it up now if you want to look at it but essentially like you know

where our subconscious beliefs and conscious beliefs meet you know where our ego sits and what our self is because you know and i mentioned and i had a little chat to nina about this last week around like being the observer of your thoughts rather than being observed and what you know the the analogy i like to use is the is the you know sitting by a river watching watching your thoughts go by you know if you need to you know dive in and explore them you can if you don't you know you don't you don't

have to and being able to carve out like here are the positive ones here are the ones that i know and for me my feedback loop is like is this useful or is this helpful yeah yeah whereas you know a lot of the conversations i would imagine you have at work you have with different groups you present to around you know change in communication and leadership and things like that and you know so many people just absorb get absorbed or in those negative feedback loops or the this is why i can't do it yeah and

you know we've studied enough potentially asterisks to understand that the way neuroplasticity works is you know you know where your energy what is it where your energy goes the goodness flows i just made that up but if i can put it on but then like if you focus on the good shit in your life life becomes more like there's more space for attention to that and vice versa if you're like you know my life sucks this is shit i'm you know i'm getting getting older i don't have time for myself i'm you know getting fatter

i'm getting slower all of these things it's like well it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy but i think you know i don't know where i'm going with that but i think what you are your thoughts is what i'm saying and being able to build out the self-reflection to examine um you know to to add more quotes to the to the pile for today is like an examined life is not worth living oh put that on t-shirt i think that was uh seneca but i could be wrong the thing that came up for me discuss yeah the

the probably the biggest thing that came out of me came out of me come gone what do you got came up for me there was around values and um that's probably another thing that you know values underpin a lot of our decision making our goal setting they're the things that um drive our actions so if we're really clear on what our values are then that supports in that decision making process yeah from an individual and from a group perspective as well right like from an individual perspective it drives how we show up um in our

family in relationships in our work and then in a group let's say it's our workplace or our team we're in part of then that drives our collective approach to making decisions to creating culture to building something that people want yeah um and want to be a part of i want to contribute to yeah i like i see and i think the the kind of the trident of values great use of trident is i think my brain is super visual so i just like i just have pictures in my head and like i just thought of

like a three-prong and i was like fork sounds lame let's do trident good like there's there's thoughts there's it might be four four there's thoughts there's um and beliefs i think they're two different things um there's decisions and then there's behaviors yeah it's like the four there's a four four that's not a trident anymore is it fuck it's a quadrant that doesn't make any sense it's a four these four things like if we like all of those are both enhanced by um delivered by like you know adhered to by knowing what our values are knowing

what's most important to us and then and then you know so you know our values support how we how we show up for each of those things like you know actually this is a question of and they're all questions without notice technically hey we're going to talk about some things um like what are your could you articulate to me what your values are at the moment and then yeah just make sure but then also how they might have changed or shifted since since we last had a chat yep i think um so i've been thinking

a lot about this lately i've been thank god been doing a bit of a deep dive into brene brown's work um her and adam grant did a great uh podcast series on brene's new book strong ground recommend i just chewed through those um but i talk a bit about values and it made me think a bit more about whether i can articulate my values now as to um compared to when i last did a bit of an uh an assessment or a elicitation of uh values which was probably a while ago and i've actually got

a note on my phone that's pinned at the top which is my values and principles put that on t-shirt and i try to look at it regularly just as like a reminder and also as a um a prompt i guess for again decision making for how i go about uh my life and the i had six values and two emerging values um and i think that um the values the six that i had i don't know if i i think there's too many actually i think um like it's spreading too thin between these words or

feelings that maybe don't add a lot of value um or insight to how i want to show up um and they do mean something to me they still definitely do mean have meaning but yeah but i think i think there are two so and i'm pretty sure that brene brown talks about this with adam grant is there's two types of values right there's our terminal or core values it's like for sure yeah the ends it's the end thing it's the it's the way you land when you chew down each of your words so you might

have six words but and those words as uh transient values or as you know whatever the i actually can't remember the the term um even though i presented on it like three weeks ago to our interns um those values that then facilitate the growth or the the connection to the other values like like for me i use i say people and place are like two of my values right like i want to spend time in places i love to be places i can contribute to with people that i you know that make me want to

be a better version myself that can also contribute to that thing right like people in place then they're for me they're transient values because the uh underlying the underlying terminal value for me is is love and you know to love and be loved and then you know probably an element of like um an element of uh what's the word i'm looking for like like you know being able to put your roots down and being like you know and it's community but it's almost like environment like you know like vertice for me um is a you

know it's four walls you know a bunch of equipment like you know in reality it doesn't necessarily matter but it is a space that facilitates like the connection to place um which you know i might have to redo my values and figure out like because like it's probably just love as well yeah um or maybe it's like the stability or the like you know the contribution might be it for sure yeah yeah yeah so for me it's like contribution it's love and then like the growth and development side you know it's these conversations it's training

it's you know time with the girls that's they're the three things that um underpin my decision making and i know yours are relatively similar yeah um things just came up then there's so i think my values have certainly changed since becoming a dad yeah and uh the decisions that i've that i would have made five years ago is a different about i would make decisions now um i was just looking at my note i had two emerging values yeah i actually can't remember when i first wrote this down no i don't know how i don't

have like the date the date but um was courage and fun good and i feel like that fun value has really uh has emerged just by being a dad and you know playing all the time and especially miles is such a play-driven boy it's that that overrules everything so um i also have some dad principles that i wrote down go on um share them with the class there's a couple if if you if you're out for it of course um and i wrote these down this is how i feel about your dad principles i wrote

these down um before miles was born oh that's cool and i haven't changed them that's that's really cool number one tell me about this number one always be up for a game of dinosaurs it's never too much effort oh good and the way that rings true right now donut t-rex is the favorite right now so um is he ready to watch uh jurassic park put him in i reckon he's ready to go just um fast forward through through a few bits yeah you know raise our family in a house full of kindness fun and love

good put your damn phone down i need something be there when they look up yeah um be a sherpa so guide my kids walk the path beside them say i love you without expecting them to say it back good there's a few in there but it's good yeah so again pinned at the top trying to look at that often i'll come back to my values i think um yeah there's certainly a couple of these which still ring true but they don't have the same they don't have that like real resonance that kind of speaks to

me on a really deep level um i think without looking at them anymore i think at the moment you know growth and development is definitely something i value but isn't something that is driving a lot of my decision making at the moment there's almost like a contraction piece to that totally whereas the play and and fun and joy and love love massive massive expansion i think service is always going to be something that is um um really true to me service to but the context changes service to my family service to my community um so

that and future mayor of boynton for those players absolutely wow never say never put that on your bingo card um leadership yeah is something that you know i care about a lot and like which is something that we've spoken about a lot over the years but like give us your definition or um you're like you know how that's showing up for you in your life and how it's resonating for you at the moment um again i'm on the briney brand train at the moment so her definition of leadership is the courage to see the potential

in others and then to develop that potential so i really love that um definition i don't think it's like the definition for me and i don't think i have a definition i think i've thought about this a lot last few years there's no real like one definition of leadership for me i think it is absolutely dependent on context everyone can and is a leader in a diff in different ways i think um courage is a big aspect of that i think um integrity is a big part of that yeah and um and care i think

um yeah i think care that's that's probably a contender for the uh for one of my terminal values and we you know with miles we talk about kindness a lot and that is like a um what is it like a transient value of care yeah because that is it's almost like the transient values can be just actions and and yeah how you actually facilitate that that terminal value yep um because the you know to use your example before of being of being there when you know when he looks up like that's a that's an action

for love and and you know getting space for him to be you know who he who he is becoming and i think um you just triggered something there which is maybe the easiest way to recognize uh a value is when you're not in alignment with your values yeah which is like if you're not being kind and that really hurts you then you kind of know you're operating outside of your values and that is something that means a lot to you yeah so uh it's just a different lens or a different way to look at decision

making in life and yeah and you can almost look at that you know like there's the really you know micro like action right then example um of doing the thing or not doing the thing but then there's also the you know maybe like zoomed out um you know macro uh like you know big like am i living my life the way i want to live and i think that you know words like purpose and um and mission and you know all of those things and i think the where you know we've spoken over the years

but like where do what gives me my what gives me energy or what fills me up or what but also what takes it away and you know you mentioned burnout before and we haven't spoken about it yet but it's almost like and and yes we can work too hard and do too much and and be doing what we love and still burn out but i think for the most part burnout is a symptom or an outcome from not living by your values and not um being able to facilitate the shit that's most important to you

day to day um and we can live outside of that for reasons that have nothing to do with us it can be you know because we have to do abc for for our family or we have to do you know we have to we have to live a life that isn't aligned with the kind of person we become but we also have the capacity for change yeah i love that um for those playing i could used to do a seminar for our for our community called the power of change so if you want him to

do it again he will just you just need to ask um which was a brilliant aspect of like you know how do we action change because ultimately our job as coaches and you know leadership is to be able to facilitate behavior change and to help people move from where they are to where they want to be and i think that if we realize that we're either not living in a lie in um allegiance to our values or we're not doing the things that fill us up then we have the capacity to change but there is

a massive amount of friction in in changing and in actually carving out the the space to feel like we're capable of making that step yeah yeah i think it it comes you know full circle back around to like practices and actions that will take you in the direction that you want to go and um i'm sure there's some sort of model out there which is around like the actions the environment that you're in the people you surround yourself with that facilitate the change that you want to create for yourself yes well it's almost that like

you know i love the like transfer theoretical model of change as like a really simple like what stage of change you actually in for that particular thing right like most people and you know you've you've done it for reasons that i would like to think aren't because i hated it but you've shifted jobs out of this place into the corporate world and you know you've facilitated a lot of change being both in your in your roles you've been in over the last few years and as a coach at vertice but you know fundamentally there needs

to be a you know there needs to be an awareness of what needs to change and a desire to change before we can even start thinking about actually actually shifting shifting that um so what from your perspective do you feel as though is like integral to someone who's like i'm just not feeling aligned with the way i want to live my life and i think i need to change but i don't know what it is there's a few parts to that um there's certainly a uh push or pull um that creates change or that is

the again the impetus for change you're either you're pushing away from something or you're being pulled toward something else um and those are both very they're both valid um i think you know the the my move away from vertice was certainly like a pull toward something else and not a push away from here and the fact that i took a person i still take this yeah i'm sorry that's um you know the fact that i'm still here yeah means that this place is important to me and it was cool because it was like it wasn't

necessarily what we both wanted but it was a massive um it was a massive reason for growth both ways yeah oh absolutely i think like this place is potentially far better than it could be than if i stayed right like maybe the change was i'll tell you the opposite now but outside of conversations with you i probably agree the um but the change was the thing that that um maybe triggered further growth yes um yes and so and there's two outcomes to any big change in this like i think you either realize that it was

what you needed and there's growth or you realize it wasn't and there's growth so it's like any and i say this is a bit of a throwaway line but i think we like and i'm very grateful um and privileged to be in a position when i talk to a lot of people about either you know behavior change from a training perspective or you know we have a relationship and there's the trust to be able to have conversations around like changing jobs or changing you know shifting big aspects of their life yeah i'm yet to meet

anyone that's gone through a process of desiring change and wanting change to then make a big change and regret it wholeheartedly there's always yeah elements of positivity and you know there's things you miss and things things that are different um but the capacity to be like yeah i'm going to do this thing because it's what i align with and what's most important to me now yep later on like the other stuff later on will take care of itself yeah yeah and i think it's a it's a um it's almost like a recency bias thing where

the hard thing is right in front of us so it's and that's the only thing that we see where we can't see um the that the road ahead has benefits or like the the path that we're about to walk on is going to lead somewhere great yeah um and so we need to uh be able to move through the resistance that initial resistance to go on the path and you know one of my favorite quotes is um the travel of the path is made by walking and that's not the entire thing but yeah there is

no path there is no path the path is made by walking so you know taking steps and actually just making progress moving forward sometimes into the unknown sometimes um not but that is uh what creates growth and um or not just growth but you know maybe growth maybe it's stability maybe it's clarity yes um but it it is good for you yes and i think the before we wrap up i think the thing that we need to be or we need to have the capacity to do is then is you know for me it's take

action and then you know take action because you think it's the right thing to do and then you can adjust as you go like i think you know making making no decision is a decision and and staying yeah in what doesn't serve you and you know there's and this seem to let quote that's you know the two most addictive things uh in in our existence are heroin and a monthly salary it's like two things that you know it's really easy to just stay like fine for sure yeah one of uh one of my mates who's

who quit his stable job and you know duels um could his stable job to become a stand-up comedian he posted something the other day and being like like i was in a job and it was fine but there's nothing okay with fine you think of like parking fines and he used a handful of other examples like that's actually pretty good um and but it allowed like it was the thing that he's like this is pretty good but also the capacity for better right yeah what's the opportunity cost of just staying the same right yeah yeah

and you know everyone has different reasons for doing or not doing it but ultimately you know what's the the awful thing is that everyone has their reasons which we've quoted logan's learning learnings a little bit today um but we've all got our reasons to do or not do the thing but you know fundamentally if you're not if you're feeling like there needs to be a shift it's probably the the right the right choice um i've got two questions for you to finish off okay what are you most proud of easy family awesome shout out to

the koopas what a good bunch and what are you most excited for uh i'm really excited to go out for dinner tonight mr vincenzo's with um friend sam who has been living in norway for the last few years and i've get to share some time and space with him good um broadly i'm excited i mean there's a lot to be excited about um i'm excited for excited for 2026 i think it's going to be a good year i'm really excited to reframe that for me it will be a good year thank you stories we tell

ourselves yes no it will be a good year good year um it's yeah i think there's some some potential um opportunities for growth uh which i think i'm at the stage where i'm have the capacity to explore i'm excited to continue watching miles grow into the fun happy little boyies i'm excited to see and watch sally ann build her business um next year which is awesome uh i'm excited to be here more hopefully that's good for morale across the board um yeah i think there's a bit there's there's it's a perspective thing right there's always

lots to be excited about um it's just raising your head and looking up and taking a look around yeah yeah nice well mate it's been a pleasure good from you any uh any more for anymore anything to add to the any any words of wisdom to drop to finish off with uh share like subscribe good i'm very proud of you it's a pleasure as always get around him he's a king