S1E36 · RUOK? Suicide awareness with Tom Curtis

My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Hey guys, welcome to the Virtus Performance Podcast. We have a special episode today. I'm sitting here with my good friend Thomas Curtis. Tommy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. Welcome. Tell me why we're here today. We're getting a chat about R U OK Day, which is happening on Thursday.

Which will be today when we launch it. A little bit of an inception, but just talking about why it's important and why it's there. I guess the whole point of R U OK Day is to talk about suicide awareness, but as we were discussing before, it starts hopefully a lot sooner than that. Yeah, I think that's the thing for a lot of people that have gone through it and these awful things happening, some people kind of think, well, if I've just been able to say something and I've been able to say R U OK or help people out.

I think that the crux of the issue is before that, being like a support network and being able to kind of have those conversations early on when someone's going through something can make all the difference. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think like, I don't know, having the conversation, I think is the first question. It's the first thing we need to talk about, but like some people just don't want to talk. Yeah. And I think we've got to be mindful of, well, yeah, we want to have the conversation, but if someone doesn't want to have the conversation

and we push them to have the conversation, it's yeah, it kind of becomes one of those things that it becomes really hard for, you know, support networks to help in that, in that kind of aspect. Yeah. I think, I think everyone kind of responds to different things, so you kind of, you have to look at your friend that you might be chatting to and just think, well, they're notoriously pretty poor at asking for help and they might not respond well the first way. Maybe I need to take him out for a beer or I need to, I need to, um, go and lift some heavy weights with them.

Like everyone is approachable in different ways and you don't necessarily need to say, are you okay? It's just about reaching out and giving someone a kind of, just letting someone know that you're there basically. Yeah. And I guess some people are going to want to cheer you off and some people are going to want to talk about everything and kind of just unload. And that's important to be there for those kinds, those people. But some people would probably just want someone to, I guess, be there or have someone just ask and not necessarily talk about it, but it gives them that, that affirmation that, yeah, there's people here that care about me and want to help.

Yeah. Um, and that's the thing, like, um, I think it's, it's just a really good starting point. Um, and a lot of friends kind of, they're not good at having those difficult conversations and, and it can be a difficult conversation, like when someone's quite obviously going through something, um, you don't really know what to say and stuff. But, um, yeah, I know, like, um, definitely for me, um, you've always been a really good person for that. Like, um, the second anything happens, you'd be right on the phone and it doesn't need to be a really serious thing.

You just say, God, I know you've, you've got a lot going on at the moment. Are you okay? Yeah. Like how are you dealing with it? It's good to have someone that will kind of, that will be on it like straight away. Whereas, um, it doesn't need to, I think some people will sometimes they think it needs to be a big, a big, massive, serious deal. Take them out for dinner and talk, like, yeah, sit them down and talk about everything. But yeah, I think it's that constant, uh, presence, um, for lack of a better term of having, yeah, having that presence with your friends and family and people around you to talk to them when there's stuff going on.

Bye wave. See you wave. I've just ruined the podcast, haven't I? I was trying to be sneaky there. I'd love to see if you guys are okay. You okay? We're good, mate. See you guys. We're good. Thanks, mate. Thanks for asking. And I guess, like that kind of joke, you'll, are you okay? Is kind of, it's probably a good thing to get the conversation started, but it's, it's something that, I know it probably annoys you a little bit where people, you know, gets to September 14 and everyone goes, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?

Yeah, it's, and that's, I guess one of the things that sometimes can be a bit frustrating is that people make light of it and, and, and it's, and that's fine. Like it's, it's a conversation you kind of, you bring it to the surface and it's really important to do that. But at the same time, like, um, it's really important to actually look into why this is a day and why it's becoming, because it's quite a serious thing and you don't want to be in a position where, um, like after the fact. And that's, I think

one of the scariest things for me, having friends and family who have dealt with depression and suicide and, and coming back on those issues and kind of, and going, Oh, well, I wish you like, you don't want to be at that point where you wish you could have done something. You want to be proactive and you want to kind of, you want to do things. So that I think that's why it's so important. It's so important to me. Um, and it doesn't have to be on the day and it's obviously it's the worst day cause like, I mean, it's, it's such a, but it's there for a reason.

And I think having the com, like I said, the conversation, but with the wider community talking and starting to talk about mental health and depression and things like that, it's starting, starting and it's not definitely not there yet, but it's starting to become a little less of a taboo topic. Um, which, which is only a good thing, but yeah, I think it's still got a fair way to go. Um, I've certainly been like, I had a pretty, pretty good run with not having any friends or family have, have any of these directly have any of these issues.

Um, but the last, you know, five, four or five years, it's something that's kind of rid its, rid its head way more often than, than anyone wants. Um, you know, fingers, fingers crossed, it doesn't keep happening and things like that and things like this can actually get people talking about it. But yeah, it kind of slaps you in the face when it's, when it's close to you and that's kind of when it gets holy shit, like, you know, what could I do? And that's the, that's the worst thing, if something horrible does happen and someone does take their own life, it's that, what could I have done differently?

Yeah, there's a lot of guilt, there's a lot of guilt and, and at the end of the day, it is great. And I think we've made leaps and bounds in the last five to 10 years with, with mental illness, not just depression, just mental illness on the whole, but, um, it's becoming more prevalent as well. So it is important that we start talking about it because I feel like, um, in the past, it's been a very, it's been a very, like, you can't admit it because it's very, like, it's, it's just the thing that no one talks about.

And if someone does pass away. It's the shame and embarrassment and all these kind of things. Yeah. And, and even, I mean, if you want to get into it, like the, where that comes from, like the church, it was very, very, um, like, oh, you're going to hell and this kind of thing. It's, it's a very kind of like, no one wants to talk about it issue. And now I feel like it's gone the other way, like everyone wants to talk about it, which is fantastic. It's just, we need to make sure that productive kind of conversations and we're not just kind of acknowledging it without really dealing with the issues.

Yeah. And I think once, now that your awareness is there, I think the two things that probably needs to continue to grow, cause it's definitely growing is, is the education around why, like why things like depression and anxiety and, and mental health exists and why people feel the need to go down the suicidal route and things like that. And then as a matter of, if we, if we understand and, you know, we use the quote all the time, if we, if we know better, we do better. If we actually can understand as a society, why

these things happen, then we can start to take action around, you know, whatever part of that we need to, you know, I know that from a neurotransmitter point of view, it's, it's a chemistry issue in our brain, which is why depression and anxiety and things like that occur and more likely to occur in some people. And I guess the big change I see is that, hey, it's not you as a person that's an issue or the reason why you're feeling like that. Like it's, it's genuinely a chemical issue in your brain, which is why you're feeling like that.

It's understanding that and knowing that it kind of shifts it from, it's my fault, which I think is probably where people get to. Yeah. And that comes back to as well, like it's a relative issue. Like some people are born with chemical imbalances in their brain and that can mean that they're destined to just deal with these issues. And then some people might have five awful things happen in the space of three months and that will imbalance them and it's not, once again, it's like, like when you're in that head space, you think, oh, it's my fault and it's, and it's this and it's that.

Where you started off as well, it's getting the general community to understand these issues. Like if we understand them, we can start to remedy them. If you haven't gone through these issues, I know it can be quite difficult to, to really understand how someone could get to that point in their life and then if I had a dollar for every time people had said to me that, God, he had such a good life and he had so much going for him. This is just not how these people think. Yeah. And it's not how it works.

And I guess that's something that I've definitely struggled with it in the past in terms of understanding and like I still do, like I still struggle with understanding it. Most of the time, I'm a pretty happy person, like I get angry and grumpy and shitty like most, like anyone else, but for the most part of kind of seeing myself as a fairly happy person. So when you talk to people that have been through it or are going through it and I guess in, with my job and what I do, it's a conversation that I have

way more than I guess I used to and that I am comfortable with, but I've like, for lack of a better term, I enjoy having that conversation because it gets people talking about it and to actually hear, I guess, from the horse's mouth, how people are feeling and people that are in the middle of it fighting against that kind of darkness, you start to understand and appreciate the depth of what they're going through. And it's not just a, "Hey, they had heaps of money. They had a girlfriend. They had a car. They had a house. They should be fine."

Yeah. And that is 100% correct. And I think one of the big things that everyone needs to kind of remember is like, and I get frustrated when I hear some of those conversations where people get angry, but at the end of the day, if you've just lost someone, you've gone through a range of emotions, you're angry at them because you feel like, and that's the thing, grief goes in many different ways. And if, for example, Chester Bennington had five kids or whatever, and everyone's just going, "How dare he do that to his kids and things?" Yeah, and like, "Oh, how could he do this to his wife and his kids and things?"

And then putting the blame on him. It's like, it's just, unless you've been in that position where you've gone through that and you've felt those thoughts, like you can't fully grasp just how desperate he must've been. And I think that's one of those things that we need to, it's okay to feel angry at someone for that because it's just natural, but we need to remember that, yeah, he had some awful things going on in his brain, and we need to kind of, yeah, look at how to fix that. No one wants it. Yeah, and it's a tough question.

It's how do we fix it, but how do we manage it to a point where, or before the point where people feel as though that's the only option. That's their go-to. And we don't have an answer, which is, I guess, why we're here. And it's a matter of talking about it and discussing it and figuring out, well, what can we do to reduce the prevalence to start off with and then to move forward. And I think all of the awareness with Are You Okay Day and things like Beyond Blue and all those organizations do, it's

helping and it's part of it, but it's getting everyone to a point where they're able to talk about it and there's not that shame and embarrassment and head-in-the-sand mentality that's probably been prevalent of late, or five, six years ago. And I think the traditional, "Oh, the first way to get better is admitting you have a problem," is true. And one of the best things about, you might just think, "Oh, I've been really bummed out lately," and you're in the onset and you're going, "Oh, well, it's just a phase and I'm just a bit down at the moment, it's fine."

If you've got someone, if you've got that support network, you've got people making sure you're okay, you can start to get out of it. Whereas if you're trying to deal with things by yourself and you're not willing to ... Yeah. You get insulated and you go around in circles in your head and it just keeps compounding and compounding and compounding and then people find themselves in trouble. And I think people try and fix the problem they've got or the problem they feel they have. And I think trying to fix it is probably the worst way of maybe attacking it because, hey, here's a solution.

And I guess I'm someone that's fairly logical in the way I go about things and KP will be the first person to tell you whenever she's upset about something, I go, "Cool, what do I do to fix it?" And it's just a really simple ... In my head, it's just like, "Oh, well, this is the way you upset, this is how you fix it." And she's just like, "I don't want you to fix it, I want you to help me deal with it and help me understand it and be there for me while I do it."

And yeah, I struggle with that sometimes, but I guess I'm aware that I struggle with that. Yeah. And yeah, as soon as we kind of get past the, "Hey, this will fix your problem," and just be present, be there and be someone who everyone can talk to, it starts to open up doors for improvement. Yeah. And I mean, having gone through some of these issues myself, I think the biggest thing for me was working on little bits of the time, like we were just chatting before about, you're looking to the things that can compound it and I go, "All right, well, I'm not sleeping that well.

I'm going to fix my sleeping." Yeah. I'm not exercising that much, which has kind of ... It can help start exercising, being a son more. All these different things, they might seem stupid and insignificant at the time and no, my nan died, I don't need to get more son, I don't need to exercise, I was fine before this. Well, every little thing that you can do to make it go away will always help. So, I think that was one of the big things. A lot of people think, "I'm in this rut and it's going to take over, eventually it's going to stop because- Time will fix it.

Time will fix it. And it doesn't always, sometimes it does, but you need to have that willpower to kind of just start making little changes and things that can kind of get you out of that rut. And once again, coming back to are you okay day, it's the best chance for you to go, "Well, Tom's been in a bit of a rut for six months, I might chat to him." Instead of just going, "Oh, it might be a bit awkward." Yeah. If you're worried about the awkward conversation, just take him out for a ... Go to the movies, go for a beer, do something that you know they'll enjoy.

Yeah, you don't have to actually dial in on that, let's talk about that, we have to talk about that. Yeah. And being there for someone is probably just the support they need. And then when they're ready to talk, they'll talk, if they are ever ready to talk, because some people just don't want to talk and I think that's okay as well. But yeah, there's different ways of showing you're okay. Yeah. It's one of those, and it's such a hard issue to deal with because it is not the same for everyone. It rears its head in different ways and it's such a ...

I mean, we're getting better at talking about it, but there is no easy way to talk about it. You can't just go up and ... You know when someone's not doing so well and you know, and sometimes people just don't want to be around it because they're like, "It sucks." Yeah, and there's certainly times where you can't look back and you're like, "Wow, I should have said something a couple of weeks ago," or, "I should have mentioned something or I should have asked," or something like that, but I think when you've got a gut feeling that something isn't quite right or something's up or something like that and something's out of character for someone, then say something.

Yeah. And if you don't talk to them directly, talk to their partners, talk to their friends, talk to their family, someone ... Because most people, I guess, would have that one person that they'd talk to. Yeah. On that kind of ... That health and that importance of, I guess, getting to see the sunshine and eating well, from a chemical point of view, we talk about all the neurotransmitters, so dopamine and serotonin and all those kind of things, and if we're eating shitty and we're not putting the right kind of fuel in our body, our body's not going to produce the right amount of those neurotransmitters.

So that's going to create an imbalance and an issue which can lead to those problems. That work at Virtus, we use kind of a 10-point scale in terms of holistic well-being because being well, for lack of a better term, being healthy and happy isn't just one thing. It's doing the little things, like you said, really, really well over and over again. It's just an accumulation of those. We use sleep because if we're not getting enough sleep, we're not getting rested and we're not improving. We use stress because stress is something that I guess is demonized and looked at as stress is bad.

Stress is a good thing because it challenges us to improve and work on things. That feeling of stress and I've had a big day at work, geez, I feel good because I've been able to challenge myself to improve, I think that's really, really important. The hydration side of things, simple, and people might think that this is arbitrary, but 70% of our body's water, if we're not hydrated all the time, all of the processes and functions and everything that happens isn't going to help us get to where we want to get to. What else do we use?

We use getting out in the environment and sunshine and coming back to nature. We use relationships and purely because that can be a bigger source of stress and I guess conflict for a lot of us. We use movement as a big one, I guess, being a gym and we do a lot of things that isn't just training, but being a gym, first and foremost, we see the importance of movement every day in terms of helping someone's mindset. It's not just going out and smashing yourself, but it allows you, for me, it allows you to get,

if you're stuck in your thought process and you're going around in circles, and like I said before about compounding and compounding and compounding, it allows us to get out of that, out of our body and out of our brain and just kind of into our body and the feeling, anyone to train for half an hour, 45 minutes to their level, they're going to feel good, I guess, the whole you never regret a workout kind of thing. It's cliche, but it's true because very, very rarely will you leave a run or a session or something and feel worse than you actually did.

As soon as we can start to look at the things we can do and take action and yeah, I can get a little bit more sleep, yeah, I can eat better, stop having KFC on the way home, that wasn't directed at you, start drinking a little bit more water, you know, stop having six beers a night, like they're actions that we can take and that we can help our friends and family and people around us take to start improving those little things. Yeah, I think that's a really important point as well. Not KFC, whatever, I'll

go down with that sinking ship, but that's the thing, you've got to find your vices and you might read a book, but I think that's where we get into some really trouble because you might go, well, I have six beers and I feel a bit better and you go, well, that's the only time I felt good lately, I'm going to have another six beers tomorrow and that becomes a bit of a habit and you have to look for healthy vices, you work out a prime example of that, it lets you release all of that stress

and that pressure, but it kind of gets your blood pumping and physiologically it'll start you moving again and it's a good productive thing and sometimes you get sucked into that and then it's a bit of a band-aid for the issue, like drugs and alcohol and those kind of things that people use as vices, yeah, you feel better for six hours and then after. It's the sugar hit, it's the bam, that feels great straight away, like you have a chocolate or an ice cream or anything like that and that's fine, but in moderation because if you

keep feeding yourself those refined sugars and those really palatable foods that give you that shot of energy and happiness and that dopamine dump and things like that, then it's all short lived, it doesn't give you that long term satisfaction, which is the same thing as your drugs and alcohol as a vice of hey this will numb the pain or this will make me feel good for a small period of time, what about when you wake up tomorrow morning and you feel like shit and you're kind of back in the same spot. And finding the balance

between enjoying yourself and then looking after your long term health and well being is really important because if you keep going down those paths, like I said before, it just adds up and adds up and eventually something's going to break and that can be through a whole range of different things, we can lash out, we can make shitty decisions, we can, yeah, it's hard and it's why we're talking about it because this is the best way to do it, everyone's going to look at it a little bit differently. Yeah, and that's the thing I guess

if you kind of listen to some of the conversations that people will be having on Thursday and I guess even what we're talking about now, you might be- It's Thursday. Yeah, it's Thursday today, you kind of, you start going well, like if I'm not dealing with this then it can kind of help you to deal with people that are, if you're currently going through things then you can start to go well, people might want to help me they just don't understand how and if I reach out then I need to kind of look at how

I do that because it can be intimidating, like definitely had like friends and such come up and if you go up to someone and say I've got a lot going on right now, I really need to chat, like that's really intimidating because all of a sudden the person that you're going to can say oh shit, if I said the wrong thing then it's going to come back to me and obviously they might be a lovely person, they just kind of don't know how to take that and you kind of need to pick your moments and-

And pick your people and pick the way you approach it because I guess for the most part the majority of people that have been down that hole have kind of been able to pull themselves out with the help of the people around them so it's definitely, you don't want to be an island, like you want to be finding the people that can help but you know if yeah that's it, you don't want to have the conversation with the wrong person or the wrong conversation at the wrong time and you know you get someone who's having

a shitty day themselves and we all get caught up in our own shit sometimes which you know isn't the best way to deal with it but we all get caught up with our own shit, it's just the way it is and we don't necessarily think straight away about other people's stuff. So you get to get someone on the wrong day and use that as your last resort and then you kind of you're up the shit, you're up shit creek because you don't know where to go from there and I think it's trying to find those

little conversations to have before you get to that last resort, that's kind of the most important thing which is hard and you know we spoke about it beforehand and you spoke about kind of happiness and sadness and anger and things like that. We want to be able to feel those things because you know you don't understand what happiness feels like until you've been sad and you know there's you know happiness, sadness, everything in the middle, in the middle there's indifference and how you feel, we want to be able to feel either side of that spectrum

because it gives us, it allows us to enjoy the good times but it allows us to be aware of the shitty times and say well it's not always going to be like this. Yeah and that's the thing and there's a big difference between sadness and depression, I think that's, since that conversation's come up it's really hard because someone might have a rough two weeks and have a shit time at work and not really having a great time in their relationship and they might go I'm self-diagnosed as depression and it's very very different but then sometimes

that might be enough to trigger someone to go into like a spiral and go into that so it's really difficult like it's very static and it's very like it's just at the end of the day like you've kind of got to work on those things that are like making you sad and like if you think you're depressed then you can't sometimes and like we're talking about reaching out like sometimes you've got to get professional help and your friends can't cut it and like you might wish they could cut it but at the end of the

day like they're not trained to deal with these things and they might try and they might want to help you and they might want to do the best they can by you but at the end of the day it's a very heavy issue and people train for years to try and like discuss these things and they're the kind of people that you need around you and you need your friends to kind of show you a good time and help you out but at the end of the day some like especially severe depression needs to be

treated and I think that is one of the biggest issues especially in my experience like you want to get out of it yourself and you want your friends to get you out of it and you don't want to because it's a big step to go and see someone and go into that environment but it's where you'll get the best help it's the best possible way to kind of get yourself out of that so it is really difficult like it but the like the more we talk about it the more that we kind of we start

to remove that stigma around yeah and seeing a psych or seeing a professional seeing a doctor or you know because if there's something going on and you don't necessarily want to go see a psych or someone like that just go to your GP and say doc I'm not feeling well or like I think there's something going on and you know they'll refer you out to whoever they feel as though he's going to help you best you know like I had a chat with a mate a couple weeks ago he's been going through some stuff and

it was just and he said I saw a psych the other day like awesome how'd that feel yes it was actually really good like genuine surprise yeah and I guess yeah because there's that there's still that stigma around it and and I don't know one of the one of the goals I have for Virtus is to eventually get a psych that we work with or on-site or something like that so that we've so it's seen as a normal thing yeah like you know you come come tell one of your friends that you saw a physio

it's just it's just another another day you saw the doc because you were sick um but you you know you saw a admirer because you needed a massage like all those things are seen as so normal when if someone said I went saw a psych it's not doesn't have the same connotations it has a completely different different way of looking at it yeah and and that's that's exactly right I think the stigma around mentioning the word depression has gone yeah I think that now we're at a point where this step yeah we're on to the

next step and now that's kind of going well you you cut your knee open you need stitches you go to the doctor you gotta fix like now like you have a ton of issues going on or I mean depending on the person like we're talking about relative like you could have family passing away dog died your relationships going shitty or it might just be you're having a bad time at work and it's not getting better and that can kind of trigger you and I think one of the biggest things is people going oh well like

I'm having a shit time at work that guy just had like three family members passed away and he's got no grandparents like how dare I feel sad and that I can't go and speak to someone because my suffering doesn't count well it does because because it all all it means is that it's it's relative to you like you're not having a good time and you kind of need to acknowledge well yeah but yeah those people having a really tough time and and they might be dealing with it on the surface a lot better than you

are but it doesn't take away from you yeah if you've got a problem you've got a problem does it mean the way you're feeling is any less significant not at all that's that's really important because some people can have you know world caving around them and bounce back and be be okay yeah some people can have something that seems insignificant or seems a little happen and they feel as though their world's falling apart so I guess it's it's taking everything that happens on its merit and and not kind of having that threat of comparison come

in because as soon as you start comparing your feelings with someone else's feelings and for a larger part what you have with someone else then it starts to then it just compounds and I think that's one of the big reasons why yeah what we're not able to discuss and talk about it and things like that it's like yeah my problem isn't big enough your problem is still your problem and you need to respect it for what it is yeah and and one of the worst things that can cause a slide because that might be the

case and you're kind of already not doing well and then something bad might happen to you and then you're already in that low point then it's just and and if that's what's holding you back from getting held then it's really important because like it might be a really insignificant issue that just compounds and then it gets worse because then you're like well it's getting worse and I'm still coming from the same place so like I still can't be upset about it but it's getting worse because I haven't talked about it so I think that's the

way that it's going I think we're breaking through that stigma and we're getting to the point where we're getting to the crux of the issue it's just we need to like keep moving forward and keep looking at where we're at and where we're going and I think for you obviously with yeah with with the gym and stuff it's it's a way that you kind of push your business and it needs to be the same way for everyone doing anything you kind of you look at where you're going and you try and move forward and you

don't just kind of go oh you know what everyone's talking about it now like 15 people shared a photo that says are you okay like we've done our job like what's the constant conversation and discussion and an awareness and and all these kind of things because then that and talking to your friends about it and talking to your family members about it and even if there's nothing going on directly at that time you have that conversation with someone who's in a great space at the moment three years down the track they might be in a

shitty headspace and they kind of remember back to that conversation and go yeah i can talk to them about that what like for you what are the what are the ways that you were able to get out of feeling like that and what are the things that you do now to stop yourself from sliding back or so one of these so one of like i've probably had maybe two or three times in my life i've kind of i've dealt with these these issues and the first time i kind of i didn't get help because i

had this really big thing in my head where i was just like i'm this ego problem where i was just like i'm like i'm tough i can deal with this kind of thing i'm not gonna ask for help um and i kind of managed to dig myself out of it with like working out or studying psychology at school at the time yeah it's like started exercising started doing things um like fixed my sleeping and things like that like i said kind of worked on those issues second time i kind of it was a little bit

worse it was a little bit more kind of um more issues going on um and i kind of did the same thing and it wasn't working i was exercising i was doing all the things i did before i was like um and i couldn't sleep and i couldn't fix my sleep and i was and a lot of things were going on i just couldn't get past it so i've gone well what i'll do is um i might like open up to friends and things like that didn't really work for me um and i kind of

went well look i've got to do something more proactive i've got to take the next step bear in mind this was a long time coming like i had spent months and months dealing with this and not really getting very far so i decided to go and speak to someone um which is the best thing i've ever done and you kind of and and it's one of those things and everything you said is so true like you kind of go i like um i can't let anyone know that i went and did that and all this

kind of stuff and i didn't tell anyone just kind of did it and like you said you go in there and i had no expectations at all i've gone no one knows me better than i know me like i'm the only one that can fix my problem blah blah blah and they just managed to kind of like make you see things rationally and and it just helps out so that was the way and then yeah from then on you kind of realize well if i'm going that way yeah it's all well and good to fight

it out and have you have your friends and stuff but if you can't dig yourself out of it you just need to kind of swallow your pride and and just kind of go look because now it's not for me it's not it's not an issue you just get back there you'll know that that's an option and that's someone somewhere you can go yeah and and like you said the doctor analogy is perfect like it's and and what you said is fantastic because it needs to be that simple and like you might still not it might

never get to the point where you kind of will say oh i just went to the psychologist like blah blah blah won't be as as accepted as physio but if it's i think the service is there yeah then it won't be so like i've already like i've got like plenty of friends that are that are seeing people and and like not at the time when i was but now i'm at a point where and for me it's not weird like and they kind of and for them it might be like they tell me and they

go oh like um i did this and um oh you probably think i'm crazy and they go no like not at all you like it's it's the best and most efficient way of dealing with the issue so i think um it's fantastic that it's starting to kind of yeah and i guess something that's been uh in like the widespread media this year has been afl players and the afl community in general has been incredible within the last couple of years pumping up awareness and improving the awareness for is afl players taking a week or two

off when they feel as though they're struggling and then you hear that ignorant call of of their their afl players they got everything going for them they get paid well they get to kick a footy around as a job what would they have to be depressed about and i think that's kind of where we're at at the moment where part of the society is is embracing the importance of it embracing the need to look after yourself and look at mental health in a very similar light i know they're completely different but in a very similar

light to how we view physical health and you know if someone said i'm gonna saw hamstring i'm gonna miss four weeks some guys i've got depression i'm gonna miss four weeks like it's like wait what like they're two yeah it's it does seem a little uh a little foreign and a little alien that we look at those two things the same way but i think in a way it's probably important that we do um start to at least start to figure out what that looks like yeah yeah how we actually you know objectively measure that

a player needs some time off i don't know i don't know how we do that but and that is one of those really difficult things and one of the other things apart from the fact that the comments about oh why is buddy franklin he's got just into campbell and he's got a million 1.2 million reasons to be happy like at the end of the day it's not as simple as that it's kind of for him it might be missing a game once once again relative like if you miss out on the grand final like it's

the port Adelaide boys last night like i mean six months ago but um like they five days ago i'm just counting but like that's the thing for them that's uprooted they've spent their whole year just pushing for this one end goal and they've had it all stolen away on the last given night like that for someone would be gut-wrenching and for them that like yeah they're rich and they've got this but that's their that's their thing so i think um it's it's really it is an ugly conversation that you can have when these sports stars

will kind of come up and they'll come out but then one of the other things is well this year with such an influx of players doing it people are going oh he's not depressed he's just oh it's drugs or it's this or it's that they're on their last strike and things like that it's really difficult and it's seen as a cop-out still yeah it is a massive cop-out and and they kind of like because tom boy and travis cloak all these players that come out and they've gone oh well they haven't ever done it before

and now all of a sudden we've got like we've got 15 players this year that are all depressed i think it's a cop-out and it's like well how do you differentiate like i'm 100 certain that like some of these players have got it and whether the other ones don't or do like then it's not differently or better or worse yeah but like no one wants to be sitting on the bench and not playing and when you look at this yeah and they're like the symptoms of depression um like being lethargic and and not being able

to leave your bed and things like that like yeah apart from the fact that you've been next to useless at football like you you you have no energy you wouldn't be playing your best footy like it's it's in the club's best interest and it's great like what the bulldogs have done yeah i think it's in the best interest because quite accommodating and god if you look at the swans with buddy franklin yeah in the middle of the final series just said no he's more important than the game and that'll come back tenfold because players will

know that they've got that support network around them and they've got now they've got club psychologists and all sorts and yeah that's fantastic because that's going to get them back on the park quicker it's going to make them feel a whole lot better about themselves they're going to play better footy so definitely even for even for work i had um conversation um about someone taking um days off for mental health yeah mental health day and and the boss kind of kicked up a bit of a shit and said that it wasn't it wasn't like a

a worthy reason yeah for a sick day and they kind of i think they for whatever they got fired or whatever and it's been through the courts and it's like at the end of the day like if you're not happy and you're not kind of you're in this position where you're at work and you're depressed and things like that your work output oh your productivity just spirals and some of the best like my company do a lot of work for um oh oh so i can plug them yeah but um yeah um yeah and then

um but mainframe so um they do a lot with their employees in terms of um hr and kind of working with them and they're so they're just killing it and it's like you show people a little bit of like support and a little bit of kind of you give them a little bit and they'll grab grab on to it and it's one of those things if you work someone to the bone um and they've got things going on at home and they've got all sorts of things that's their productivity is just going to be like

in the dumps because they've just got no sort of satisfaction whatsoever and if you go to work and you're happy and it's one of the things you push at vertice and one of the things that my boss pushes at work and if everyone's happy then they're going to do a better job yeah 100 and it's just a better environment to be in so yeah and i think when everyone's in that environment and they're able to be supportive and be a fun place to be people are more likely to want to go to work and they're

more likely to want to spend more time at work they're more likely to want to do all the things that make a good employee and make and makes a good environment because like you know the environment you know we look at the people around us as one but then the environment and your timing if you're in a positive uh supportive environment all the time or at least the majority of the time you're going to feel supported and you're going to feel like you can do what is right and i guess when we're talking about vertice

greg has been amazing for that in terms of just bringing awareness to it like if he doesn't feel up to and i'm sure he won't mind me saying this because he said it on podcast before but if he doesn't feel up to to go to training for a day and to coaching for a day he'll take that off and he'll reschedule and he'll and it'll move people to a time when he's been able to recharge his batteries and something that me as a as a boss and a manager is something i'm getting a lot better

at is understanding what different people's needs are and you know we've got kind of half our staff are kind of introverted and they they need alone time and and them time to recharge and then the other half of our staff are more extroverted and they kind of get their energy from other people and i think when we start to be aware of that and be aware of the different types of people and and where they get their energy in then we can start to go well yeah cam's probably going to be better off around people

and getting up and about and i know i'm certainly like that but you know greg might be better off being at home and relaxing and same with katie and like i'm aware of that and we're all aware of that and we know that yeah we know what helps each other get up um and i think that's really important just just as an awareness point of view for for any bosses managers people who are in a in a place of leadership is part of leadership is understanding the people that you're leading and i think if you

understand the people that you're leading you're much better equipped to lead and to you know from a business point of view when it all comes down to dollars and cents and bottom line and if you're able to lead and understand what people need that's just going to help the bottom line at the end of the day yeah um and yeah it's some given some take yeah it's a business point of view it's a sporting club point of view it's it's everything when it's all output measured yeah yeah and even just being a good friend like

the more you understand your friends and their needs and things the better friend you can be better relationships going to have in your life and and whether that's your friendships or your relationships or anything like if you take that second and it's like it's hard for some people to do and some people will never do it but if you look at your friend and you take five minutes out of your day and go well he's quite different to me like he is introverted and i might need to kind of approach that differently and and and

you kind of understand it's all about understanding and and i think sometimes we'll just skate over a person's needs and you kind of you pigeonhole and and whatever but if you understand someone fully then you can understand how to help them and you can understand how to kind of like fix your relationship and and another point to that is like just open conversation you need to like it's it's so simple but like if you're like letting things go and you're dragging things down and like holding on to things and and it just results in pettiness

and you'll lose friends and you'll lose relationships and look back in 10 years and go god he was a really good friend but i could never get past that one thing he did yeah and i was just too and then when you actually have that conversation about that thing that happened it's like well everyone's motives were different everyone looked at it a different way well this happened because of this oh no i thought you did this because of this then you know it's just like a misunderstanding it all comes back to communication and being able

to talk about it and things like that no i guess i'm fairly the type of person i am i'm fairly lucky that i never really hold a grudge like um i think six months is about my limit like i just don't like yeah six months maybe seven but like i've got this you know like i'm i think i'm lucky because i don't hold grudges like if someone does wrong about me or something bad happens and i blame someone for it usually a couple of weeks a couple of months later i'm over it i don't care

and we look at how we can move past it um and you know whenever something bad happens there's always that want to blame and to go to figure out whose fault is it and i guess one of the things that's really helped me is that ownership of everything that happens happens to it happens because of you it doesn't happen to you it happens because of you so you know if kp is shooting at me because i've done something or you're shooting at me because i've done something i need to look at myself and how i

best deal with that next time and yes you need to communicate with me that there's something going on and i need to communicate with you and then that starts to open it up and you don't have that thing you're shitty about for five years that you know like one of the things that like breaks my heart and i hate it when you hear about families that don't talk oh yeah because they're like and i know we've gone a little tangent here but if you're a family that don't talk because usually it comes down to communication

and a lack of and a lack of being able to communicate and lack of understanding about each person's problems and each person's struggles and the differences between each people each person and yeah definitely definitely important and it's one of those things and it's like i said it's such a simple thing but it's just it's one of those things that people kind of struggle with and it might be ugly and it might be uncomfortable and people just like skip over it and it's such an important thing um empathy as well empathy is a massive one because

and that's a that's a quality but like not all people kind of some people struggle with but at the end of the day like you start putting yourself in other people's shoes and and it just opens up worlds like um definitely what we're talking about with um depression and i mean and that and are you okay day is just not about depression and suicide it's about a range of mental illnesses it's the accumulation of everything that leads to yeah to that and i think it's understanding that it's not it's not a point a to point

b issue it's a thousand thousand different roads leading into the one issue it's figuring out what are the i'm big on action and making sure that you actually do something about it if you're annoyed talk to someone if you're if you're depressed or talk to someone if you've got something wrong with something someone's done talk to them um and then you're going to be best equipped to i guess talk through it and deal with it but it's figuring out what are the best ways to take action around each of those points to actually get us

to a point where we don't you know that suicide rate starts to drop and people don't feel as though don't feel as though that's the only option or that's the last resort or that's the thing that they need to do because yeah it's uh it leaves a big hole and a lot of um anger and blame and guilt and stuff in its wake because yeah of whatever reason it ends up happening yeah and i guess that's that's exactly why we're having this conversation and why everyone will be having that conversation today on thursday because it

is such an awful thing to happen and it's an awful thing to go through and that's why it's so important that we need to start having these kind of chats i mean we need to go further than just um just that oh there's no stigma on depression some people have depression and like and and still sometimes still people will kind of go oh like that guy that guy's like a depressor or whatever and like some people are very open about it some people you would never know in a million years that they've got that stuff

going on they just keep it under wraps so i guess the strongest and most i guess i don't know what i'm looking for but the people that present that um psyche of of being or conquering they tend to be the people that you kind of you talk to them properly and you have that conversation you're so far out like i can't believe that you've been through that well i think for me um like you mentioned before with greg on his podcast i heard that and i'm just going oh my god but i can't believe that

he's one of the like the most stoic people i've ever met but in a way kind of makes me understand well that's why he's so thoughtful that's why he's so caring and when you have an appointment with him so attentive because he's gone through that himself and he can now like identify with other people a lot better and once you have gone through those issues um you do look at people differently and you kind of go i definitely think it opened up a big thing for me where i'm kind of all of a sudden i'm

relating to people differently because i'm going oh fuck like i didn't really relate very well to him at all and i was quite a dick but in reality like he's got some stuff going on i might not be able to identify with him as a person it allows you to walk a mile in their shoes because you know you've you understand you start to realize and i guess like at the ripe old age of 25 the older but the older i get the more i realize that like people are for the most part good and

they want to do the right thing and they want to be happy and healthy and they want to have friends and family and stuff and and you when it's when you're young it's really easy to kind of pigeonhole people into certain certain areas and oh they're just shitty they're just grumpy when you get a little bit older you start to realize well they've got so many different things going on like i don't know what you had for dinner last night i have no idea what you did yesterday like i don't know what you did yesterday

during the day so i don't i can't assume all of your experiences and things that that just happened yesterday and you've got you know there's 25 years of that that's that's ticked over that i have been present for small parts of it but yeah to try and think that you know what someone's going through or what someone's what's going on in someone's head it's a really simple kind of trap that we fall into that we go oh they're just a dickhead like they've just been an asshole yeah well yeah they've been an asshole but which

is fine but they're being an asshole because of this and there's always i guess there's always a reason for for people's behavior and what we're we're looking to do you know in the general community and in societies we're looking to change behavior towards a positive more positive outcome forever and whenever we're going to get to a point where everyone's you know sing songs and jumping around and stuff like that but i guess it's finding that what are the things that we can connect on and one of the things that we realize hey we don't have

to connect on this but you know well yeah what can we do to i guess move forward as a as a community in a group and and that's why like that's why i love the people that surrounded the people that surround me it's because it's a community and we're all kind of we're all in it together for like a better like a better term and stuff like that yeah um henry alms does a really good bit one of his stand-ups and he and he talks about how he was quite a pessimist and quite negative and

and he talks about that change seeing things over time that kind of made him realize well god like the by acting like that you're just being counterproductive and you just kind of and if you and if you're constantly judging people at face value then you kind of you're not you're not going to make the world a better place you're not going to do anything positive for the world you you're contributing nothing and and he said that made me move away from that and just start making a difference and it's one of those things where you're

100 correct like people are inherently good and like and and all the problems in the world at least has gone very off tension all the problems in the world at the moment like and people that people are struggling to find common ground at the end of the day people just want to feed their family they want to be happy and they just want to be able to eat food and go to sleep and not feel like they're going to be killed tomorrow and and and at the end of the day like you just need to

find that common ground wherever it is that like if that's the most basic and and and like the only way you can relate to someone that's fine but you need to find ways to relate to different people and um definitely work is one for me like um that i keep striving and trying to get better at but like you don't get along with a guy at work and you might see different see things in a different light like you've just kind of got to push through it and just go you know what i'm at work

like at the end of the day he is a nice guy i just don't like see eye to eye and and you need to work past it instead of just going he's an asshole i don't like him i'm never gonna get along with him yeah because it's the self-fulfilling prophecy like we're talking before if you have a negative mindset oh yeah you're gonna be negative if you have a positive mindset you're gonna start having a better time and get for me and then you like you know better off and you kind of end up in

that you end up going down that route because you're not looking at things the right way and you know for me perspective's everything if we it's really easy like i've had a big day of work and i've got to pay bills and shit rents you know rents 800 bucks more this month because we've got to pay council rates or whatever it is and i get real shitty about that and i'm like well i'm like i'm running a business of you know i've just paid six like six staff like yeah i've got to pay rent but

i still get to go to work tomorrow and work at it somewhere that we've created as a team like you know that perspective kind of makes it all okay um and you know where and we could talk all day about what why the problems are happening at the moment but i've got a theory and i'll try and be as succinct as i can but like one of the things that like the first thing we learn in psychology in school is maslow's hierarchy of needs right so it's what we need and it's like what we need

first and then what makes us happy and things like that so it's we need food water shelves remorse first okay then we need our security and stability we need freedom from fear so we need to know that we're not going to get eaten by a lion when we're asleep at night we need that belonging and love so we need friends family and partners and relationships around us then we need um our achievement and mastery and our recognition respect so that what we're actually doing is is making a world making the world a better place so

we're actually contributing to society and then we need that self-actualization that ability to pursue the things that make us happy and i think the reason one of the reasons why there's so much conflict in the world at the moment is because we've ticked all those boxes and we're so comfortable in terms of for the for the most part and especially in like our circles and things like that and like what's one i guess it's part of the reason why i think a lot of the conflict's happening in the us at the moment is because they're

not the people that are in third world countries they're not arguing with each other as much like of course there's going to be argument but we're so comfortable that we go hey what else can i bitch about like what else can i can i whinge about and it's you know it's almost more the wealthier populations tend to be the ones that log your heads with each other yeah be cool with themselves and with each other because they're able they're allowed themselves that comfort of of knowing that they're going to be able to go sleep in

a nice warm bed every night to be able to chase those things that they think they're passionate about in terms of well they're doing that and i don't like it so i'm going to march against it if they had to find search for water and food and shelter they wouldn't be marching with pickets and you know kind of going back and forth yeah exactly and i think and i think that's that's one of the reasons we're like we're almost we've evolved to a point and we've evolved our society to a point we're almost too comfortable

yeah i think it was it was a massive wake up for me um going to cambodia earlier this year and seeing people there and like they had like a soccer ball that would have been about 25 years old and they had been at the house and they were the happiest kids i've seen in my life and they were like and they were so everyone was just enjoying themselves the people work like all day all night and and it's like they come back and the family time so cherished and stuff and we get caught up over

here in a million different things and everyone needs the newest iphone the newest laptop and tv new car and all this kind of stuff and it's just at the end of the day like what makes you happy it's like your family time your relationships things like that and over there it's all they've got like they don't have like that they're never gonna have an iphone but do you like do they need well we get caught in that like that gratification mindset of well this is gonna make me feel good and back to what we spoke

about before it's that kind of hit of sugar like it's you know jumping on instagram and seeing you've had a few more likes and jumping on facebook and like like i'm aware that i'm on my phone way too much um and i'm doing little things to try and help me get off it and things like that and i i'm seeing improvement and i'm feeling improvement people around me hopefully will hopefully seeing the same thing but um i think i'm getting better at it and but people go for go to those things because it's it gives

us that extra dopamine dump and it gives us that quick it's instant it's instant yeah instant gratification and it's um and i think that's one of the things that helps us fall down like we'd rather sit on our phone and scroll than talk to the people in front of us and talk to people next to us and yeah that's kind of a breakdown in communication like we spoke to before and like i'm not saying this from a from an ivory tower like i'm saying this because i know i suck like i know it's something that

we all need to get better at but i think it's figuring out how we how we do that without kind of throwing the baby out of the bathwater because phones and laptops and all the new things have become such an important part of you know 21st century life that we need to be able to go well yes it's a problem no it's not going anywhere what are we going to do to to kind of help us move through it and move past it and to use it as a positive yeah i think being conscious is

the biggest thing like like it's self-awareness it's the biggest thing ever and um like that used to scare the shit out of me because i was just like why am i here what like i don't believe in god now like what what's gonna what's gonna happen to me when i die once a week yeah and i like had this existential crisis and i was like 20 and i was like what's like what's going on and then you start going well though you want to you want to be a good person you want to leave a

legacy you want to like you whatever satisfies you as what you need to do more of and i feel like everyone if you make friends with someone and you have an ongoing friendship with someone and you kind of both work out and stuff that that feels good for everyone and everyone that builds people up and it makes them feel good so it's important being conscious of where you're at like you don't kind of like you if you always say that you're always sad then then you're always going to be sad i was saying before about

like um social media like a lot of people that go out and go i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy sometimes they're not happy and like it's don't get me wrong like if you're constantly striving to get your happiness from from that constant positive self-affirmation then go nuts because that's you doing you but i think when you i don't know one of the things that if you get your happiness from stepping on others and from throwing throwing rocks at others then that's where you kind of need to go step back look at it and go well

shit this isn't making it all a better place this isn't helping it this isn't serving my community yeah and the people around us this is just making me feel good quickly at the expense of someone else yeah and that comes back to consciousness because i think i've definitely done that at times yeah i think we all have yeah i think and it's that ability to go holy shit i was a dick then and i found it funny but like it's not right and it's not the way i should be yeah and um and i need

to work on that so you never like you can never stop yourself from doing it all and i'm a massive shit talker so i'm never going to stop but you just need to pick it so like you can't go doing that by your tongue no one's yeah and you've got to pick you you can banter with people all day long but yeah my favorite thing like one of my favorite thing in relationships and workplace is that banter and it's knowing that like it's having you know that those jobs at each other which creates can create

an extremely positive supportive environment but when it becomes like nasty and and sometimes it can be it can be thrown across as something that's just jovial and not meant to be nasty when someone takes it as nasty it's nasty so it's going well from both ends the person who said it needs to be made aware that it's nasty and that it's you've gone too far but the person who's copped it needs to go hey that's not on because then like otherwise you don't know and you don't know that there's something something's been said that you're

that someone's not happy about or something like that which which is hard like like that that's that got to communicate everything comes back to effective communication and and we all none of us are mind readers we all assume we know what's going on in someone else's head but we have no fucking clue yeah so i think it's one of those things every podcast i ask a bunch of questions at the end i'm not gonna i'm not gonna ask i'm not gonna ask all of them um i'm just gonna ask a couple of them all to

do with what we're talking about what are you grateful for um i'm grateful for my friends my family um and that's pretty much i'm grateful for a million different things like but most of them stem from those ones because at the end of the day everything i have and everything i've kind of got is from my family um and my friends my friends kind of shaping as a person as my family have but then i mean if you look at why i get to sleep in a comfy bed every night and things like that it's

what mom and dad have given and my grandparents and everyone so awesome yeah definitely everything stems from them i'm grateful for a lot though what is happiness to you happiness for me is in a weird kind of way which might not make sense but it's been content because um i've gone through a lot of like phases of like existential crisis um discontent things when i like something feels wrong and that's for me it's just that comfortable being able to go to work every day and and go to sleep at night and be and be comfortable

okay and obviously we've talked about comfortable can be a bad thing but for me it's just being like waking up every morning being happy to go to work and see friends and do things like that because it's it's kind of it's for me like it's i don't care what i'm doing i don't care if i'm playing video games or if i'm going to the gym if you're content you're happy if i'm content then i'll do it i'll be at work i won't be anywhere or is it if i'm in a bad state then it doesn't

matter where i am i could be playing football i could be playing video games yeah and it just won't be satisfying for me and i think that's that's such a such an important point because that's what you see as happiness so that's what's going to make you happy for like i don't know like i'm similar in some aspects but for me like i like being uncomfortable like i hate it but i like it because i like i like that challenge of being uncomfortable and i'm like i know you do too sometimes i like confrontation yeah

that's that's probably pretty uncomfortable for some people but i think i think when when people like have that have that want to chase that next paycheck or that thing that that success or that happiness that they feels around the corner they're always constantly chasing it and it's like a dog chasing his tail like it's just going around around around you never actually catch it so i think that ability to be content and be happy and kind of like you do you around what you think's happy that's the most important part because as soon as we

start to chase that external validation or that thing that's seemingly just over the hill but it's like it's never actually attainable that's where people fall down and people kind of fall into that that spiral i don't know yeah and you know what i'm like with work as well like i'm a perfectionist when it comes to when it comes to work and things like that so for me that that stress is fine like i i thrive off that and and it makes me comfortable with that stress exactly so for me that that stress isn't like uncomfortable

it's kind of it pushes me to be better at what i do whereas um really the things that make me uncomfortable is like um when a relationship's not going well or or i'm not getting along with the guy from work or if i'm like whatever that kind of stuff weighs on my head or if i'm not happy with what i'm doing if i've been an asshole to someone yeah and like i think that's a big one for me like um worrying about what i kind of so not keeping up with your standards yes and and

for me that's troubled me more than any like outside influences don't have a massive effect on me and and that's why that i've always been different in terms of like dealing with what i've got going on because for me i set my own standards and i kind of if i'm not meeting them that that's a big deal for me and um i don't know whether you're gonna ask the question but um for me one of my the best quotes i've ever heard was um it's a bakowski quote and it's if you're losing your soul and

you know it then you've still got a soul left to lose which is resonating so much with me because i got to this point i was like oh like i'm i'm not keeping up with what i want like i'm i've kind of lost it i've like all this kind of stuff i'm consciously aware of all these things that i'm not doing right and then i saw that and it just spoke to me because i was just like what am i like i'm worried about it so i must still have something in there and i can

and i can flip it around so that kind of made me go well you know what i need to try harder i need to be a better friend i need to be a better like um like family member and things like that so it's it's all the kind of if you get down in the dumps and you get stuck in that right you need to kind of you can't just be negative you've got to kind of work yourself out of it and stuff so yeah good if you could give teenage you one piece of advice

what would it be oh um i don't think i've listened to be honest i'm pretty notoriously bad at listening to advice um i'd probably just say to kind of um being more or being more self-aware when i was yeah when i was a teenager i was very very poor at um understanding myself like i had no idea what made me happy what didn't make me happy yeah and i i hadn't figured it out but i thought i'd figure it out so and it was one of those things and yeah and you know now i think

i've got it figured out but i don't think i do but whatever like it's at the time i kind of gone i'd pigeonholed everything in my life and i've gone this is what is the case with everything and i know everything and i'd probably try and tell myself to be a bit more humble and kind of go you don't know everything about everything you've got a lot to learn and you kind of and you'll get there but um with career was a big one because i just never wanted to be a tradie and i didn't

think i could do it i didn't think i wanted to do it and then for me it was a moment of actualization where i go oh you know what um this is really fulfilling this is really great and um and now yeah doing really well so it's it's one of those things just knowing my place because sometimes i kind of struggled with that growing up awesome happy work any more for any more any more for any more yeah what do you think that's all the questions i got yeah no um oh god i've asked them

all back but we might be here for hours yeah i'm actually doing my own policies interview in a couple of weeks so we'll get all those on um i guess i guess you know hopefully you guys got something out of today it's something that is very important to me and tommy and and yeah i guess at vertice we want to create a facility and an environment where people are comfortable coming in and talking um or just coming in and being being there and yeah like let yourself feel what you want to feel and if you

need help ask and and don't assume that people know how you're feeling because it's yeah everyone's kind of worried about their own shit whether that's the right thing or not so if you yeah if you need help there's you know beyondblue and are you okay and lifeline and stuff like that and just yeah talk to people around you [BLANK_AUDIO]