Automatically transcribed, so expect the odd wrong name or word.
- Oh, welcome back. Again, another episode, season four of the Virtus podcast. I keep saying it every week, but we're very lucky today because M, so, we'll give a bit of background for M first. M works at a gym called IFP. M is an osteo by trade. But M used to be an intern here at Virtus way back in the day. So much back in the day that she asked when she got here if we go down the road to do the podcast, which we did five, maybe five years ago, potentially longer. So when the interns say they'll come back and visit and they'll spend some time with us, they definitely are lying.
But I have reeled M back in today, begrudgingly. She looks more comfortable what she did two and a half minutes ago when I told her to sit down. But without, I'm not gonna say it 'cause everyone keeps yelling at me for saying it. M, how are you? - Oh, I'm good, thank you. - Are you sure? - I mean, besides the morning attacks, I'm good. - Morning attacks, what do you mean? - And to be fair, I did visit, I just came to visit Greg. - Well, I mean, I've just come for Greg too, to be fair.
He's not gonna hear that because he hates us and doesn't listen to this, but. - That's fair enough. - Too busy walking, I guess. - Yeah. - Who are you, M? What do you do? So you're an osteo, you work at IFP. If you were to summarize M Wallace, introduce yourself. What would you say? - I'd pretty much probably say what you said. I'm an osteo by trade, I did SNC before that. I currently work at IFP, which is great. So I was there first as an SNC coach and then left for a little bit and then came back in a dual role managing high performance and rehab.
Yeah, and other than that, that's pretty much the crux of it. - What's the makeup of your week look like now? - I'm at IFP from pretty much 10 to six most days. And I manage a couple of rehab athletes. I manage our high performance athletes. And generally I do some outreaching to clubs and educate them on how they should manage their load. And we have some affiliated clubs that we work with that filter some people in for rehab. So then we micromanage them like a high level club would, or that's the idea behind it anyway.
- How did that start? - So I think it started when I originally left IFP for another high performance facility. That's how they ran things at Access in Narrarwarin. And then the boys at IFP called me and offered me an opportunity to come back 'cause they really wanted to work in the high performance space and run like an athlete development program and then work on the rehab as well. And they were pretty much ambushed me in the meeting and said, "What would it take to get you back?" - I'm sure that went down with you. - Yeah, I was like, "Yeah, I just laid all my cards on the table."
And I was like, "Oh, they're not gonna take that. That's a bit much." I was like, "Okay, we'll do it." - That's good. You got the power. That's the best part about it. - Yeah, so it was good. They were super good about it. Yeah, and it was obviously hard to leave the other place 'cause it wasn't bad in any stretch, but it's just a good opportunity for me to take. - What are some of the things you've started to introduce at IFP? That's not something they've done before really. - Yeah, so we have high performance classes where everyone gets their own program based on their sport, whether it's like field court, like moto stuff.
And then we pretty much coach them through their programs and we implement testing on a regular basis. So we've just got all the valve equipment in as well, which has been great. So loving the new toys. So we got a Nord board, some speed gates, and then a dynamo and some force plates. - The little handheld like modifiable one, the dyno. - Yeah, the modifiable one. Tension straps got everything. So good. So we pretty much test our athletes as they come in and then retest them six weeks after, or our rehab athletes will retest weekly.
So it was good to add the osteo side of things with the whole movement screen and mobility first, and then add the performance side of things with all the valve testing equipment, and then be able to redo it every six weeks and make sure we're modifying load as needed. Yeah. - What's your like aim or outcome, like your intention for the program? Like what do you want it to achieve? - Well, I just want athletes to get better, to be honest. And just have more confidence around their performance as well. I think a lot of people under shoot their capabilities.
So yeah, I just want them to be able to get through, their sport or season and go relatively uninjured, hopefully, touch wood. Yeah. And be able to improve their performance and like better themselves. And generally as a side to that, they just become better humans. They're in a good environment more often, like around good people. So, yeah. - Where do you think that intention comes from? Like for you personally? - I'm a very caring person. So I think it's in my nature to help people get better. So generally, that's just where I've filtered to all the time.
I was in SNC, I'm trying to help people improve themselves. And then I went into osteo, I'm trying to help people feel better and get out of pain and help them on their path to rehab to go back to what they love doing. So I think it's just in my nature as the person I am to try and facilitate that. - Nice, 'cause I think like all of us get into that for a specific reason, but we all have our own reasons for why we do it. So like for me, for example, like I got into doing this because I made mistakes when I was a younger athlete.
Still care about people enough, but I was like, I don't wanna have or see other people make the same mistakes that I did trying to be an athlete. - Yeah. - Whether that means that you make it or not, probably not. - Yeah. - You have a feeling of giving it your best shot, I guess. So that's where that kind of comes from. We're gonna touch on, we're gonna talk shop a little later. So a topic for the day, we'll obviously be systemizing the rehab continuum. - Yep. - We'll start with that. - Yeah. - We're gonna talk shop later, but what are you doing in your spare time here?
- Oh, well-- - 'Cause I know you're very business, so I'm gonna make you talk about you a little bit more. And I know you're gonna hate it, but that's the best part about podcast is you can't stop me. - Yeah, I knew you were gonna put me on fire, so. - Oh, hey, not fire. - So I've given up trying to be an athlete myself, 'cause I've-- - Why? - Well, I've said this on other podcasts, I'm a bit of all effort, no finesse, and I don't know if I have the effort to give it anymore, so it doesn't really leave me with much.
- Is that an age thing, or a, and I'm not saying you're old, careful, or horsey. - Trade lightly. - Or horsey. Is that an age thing, or just not gonna get to a point where you want to get to? - I think I just lost the drive for it a little bit, to be honest. We all went through a stage where our sport was everything, and you were kind of willing to give up three hours, two times a week, and then pretty much a whole day on your weekend at least, and then some of your Sunday if you're recovering well, as well.
And I just don't think it's what motivates or drives me anymore. I'm happy to play some offside, fill in some basketball. I shouldn't say that, I'm terrible at basketball, but-- - Hear that, everyone? Emily is up for sale. - Oh, yeah, it can be brought. (laughing) But yeah, like I'm happy-- - Banana bread and coffee. (laughing) - I'll take that. - Yeah, I know. - Yeah, so I think I'm happy to do it as a side, but I don't think I could commit to it how I used to commit to it. So now I'm a little bit boring.
I just go out to the beach, I'll be reading, going for a run, doing fit things. - What do you do for your training now, now that you don't have athletic endeavors? Like what's the makeup of your week look like? What do you like to do? What's the things you avoid doing now you don't have to? - Oh, I just really try and not do bench press, to be honest, but I have to, 'cause I give to my athletes. - I remember M. Wallace bench press phase. - I just don't-- - I was actually looking at videos of you and I when you were down here.
- Oh, no. - On my phone. And God, I hope you can front squat better now, 'cause-- - Oh, that was terrible, wasn't it? That was all sorts of bad. (laughing) It's better. - It's funny you say that, 'cause I was literally coming across it on my phone the other day, just clearing out space for the podcast, actually. - Oh, great. - I was going through all my videos. - You deleted it? - No, I don't think I did. I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna need that one." - That's unfortunate. - Georgia, I'll put it here.
- Yeah, oh God. If you're listening, that's not me. (laughing) - Looks like a very baby M, that's for sure. - Yeah, yeah, oh God, I've grown into better front squats. (laughing) I do three strength sessions a week, generally, that I actually program for my performance athletes. So I'm a big advocate of if you're gonna give something to someone, you need to know how it feels. And then, obviously, how you're gonna coach things that work or won't work. And at least you can sort of then say to your athlete, well, no, I've done it, this is why you need it.
I know it's hard or doesn't feel great or whatever, but it serves a purpose. So I do incorporate those sessions sometimes and you can't ever get angry at who's programming for you 'cause it's me, so it just comes back on me. - We do like Crossfiddy type Saturday, it's hard. Like blanket, it is hard. And the preference is, I don't care that it's hard because I did it on Wednesday, so I know how hard it is. But the last few weeks, I haven't done it on Wednesday. I've done it with them on Saturday and I'm like, you guys can yell at me, but I know it's gonna be hard and you know it's gonna be hard, so suck it up.
- And you're still here. - Yeah, do hard shit. - Yeah, exactly, do the hard shit, sure. Yeah, I-- - They've got a podcast, talking to me. (laughing) - That's how I describe it, actually. - Jazz will like us saying that. - Oh, perfect. - Jazz is very much a character build type person. - Yeah, good. - Because Jazz do something for character building. Normally it's a podcast, actually. - Poor Jazz. - Yeah, poor Jazz. She puts up with a bit of shit for me. - Oh God, that's new. - Well, I mean like, if you're gonna hang out with me five days a week, two different jobs, it's gonna come back.
- Yeah, that's a fair assessment. - I get it. - But other than that, I usually do jump into two conditioning classes a week at IFP. I think I'm slowly losing workout partners through that because I have the same attitude as you. I'm like, well we're here now, so just send it, you know? And they are hard, like the Saturdays as well for us are typically like, you're here for it. So they've been really good. And then I'll generally run like anywhere from two to three times a week. - Nice. - Yeah. - What do you wanna get out of your training now?
You just train for fun. It's a question I get asked all the time, actually. So I'm curious about. - Yeah, I think for the moment it's like, it's obviously has health undertones. Like I wanna be healthy. Like I wanna maintain a good base of strength for all the benefits that come with it. But it is for fun, like it's not for, I'm not looking to improve performance or anything like that. But I did get on the Nord board the other day and it was abysmal. - Oh boy, what defined abysmal though? - Oh, it was not anywhere near the benchmark it should be.
- Above 200? - Just. - Oh boy. - Yeah, it was not good. - Just makes me a little nervous. Above 200 is, well below 200, that's alarm bells, but. - Yeah, it wasn't fantastic, but. - So maybe I should be training for performance just so I don't tear an hamstring getting into my car or something. - Or getting on the basketball court when you get bored after this comes out. - If you've ever seen me play basketball, that's a mistake. Don't let that happen. - I can imagine. I think arms and legs go this way.
(laughing) - I have to watch the ball. - And for people listening, I was pointing opposite ways. (laughing) - Something like that. - What else do you do for hobbies? What do you do? So I like to ask the question, like what do you do after dinner? - After dinner? - Usually, I do a lot of PD stuff at the moment. Yeah, I know. - That's weird. - Yeah, well. (laughing) - I love it. - Takes one to know one. - Yeah, I know. (laughing) Fair bump. - Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I do a lot of PD stuff.
I just really enjoy it. And yeah, I've gotten into reading at the moment. So I'm trying to read at least a few pages in the evening. - Do you like reading? - Yeah, I do actually. But I'm either in a book or I'm not. I kind of can't get through it if I'm not interested. - I think that's common. I mean, I don't know 'cause I'm not a huge reader, but I feel like that's a common thing. - Yeah. - You gotta get through 150 pages and keep going. - Yeah. - If you get through five, you're like, "Nah, I'm out."
- I just can't get through some of them if I feel like they're not. - What are you currently reading? - I just finished. - Business or pleasure? - It's for pleasure, I think. - But is it business? - No, I don't think so. - I reckon it is. (laughing) - I read. - Physiological of elbows or something. - Yeah, that was it actually. You sent you a photo of my room. - I don't know. (laughing) - Yeah, I did. (laughing) - No, I just finished reading the 5 a.m. Club, which was really good. And then I read The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari, which was really good too.
So yeah, just more so than my-- - Give me a 30 second prognosis of both. - Of both. - What's the biggest takeaway of each one? - The 5 a.m. Club was good about sort of owning your morning and setting up a routine that sets you up in good stead for the day. So that was really good without it being too preachy and chuck a story in there to distract you. Yeah, too culty. So that was good. And The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari, that was, I'm gonna get this synopsis so wrong and someone else is gonna read it.
- Doesn't matter who does. - That is not what it was about. - The best part is about podcasting is you don't have to read the comments. - Yeah, great. (laughing) That was more about I think what really matters and what doesn't and just how to be a better person. So, you know, take away all the bullshit of life that most of us get caught up in and then just worry about what matters and your impression on people and how much you go out of your way to help other human beings and how that makes you a better person.
- What matters to you? - What matters to me? - Well, now we're getting deep. - Yeah, I was like, oh, got me by surprise, no warning. (laughing) - Yeah, I didn't send you any questions either, so. - Yeah, no, I noticed that. - Well, to be fair, for a lot of these, I actually don't write questions. I have like areas I wanna talk about and then we'll just kind of make it up as it goes. - Look, I'm just here in the hot seat ready to. - It's not hot, it's cold, the air comes on, you know.
The sun was baking in the window when we were watching. You're back to being stressed and stuff. Georgia Clippett. - Yeah, cut that. (laughing) - Yeah, what matters? - I think just being a good person matters to me. Like, I wanna be the best person I can and then I want to inspire other people to be that for themselves and for the people around them as well. I just think you just have to be a good human and I know that goes around the place here as well, so. - Not a bad thing. - Yeah, not at all.
- What defines a good human for you? Like, what are some qualities you look for? Or try to instill in others? - Yeah, I just want people to have good values and maybe think outside themselves how things affect people externally before they go and say something or do something. Just have other people's wellbeing in mind first. So I think you just need to create really good values that make your person people wanna be around. - Yeah, what are your values? - Shit. (laughing) - I know, I know. - No, I value respect and loyalty and just integrity, I think, as well.
All that sits pretty high on my list of what I look for in people if I wanna, you know, create my bubble. You know, you're the summation of the five people you are closest to or hang around the most. - Horrifying for me, but anyway. - Yeah, it's a little bit horrifying for me, too. (laughing) - I think that's why we like it, though. - Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, you have to know what they are if you're gonna let people in your space and potentially, you know, have an effect on them and they're gonna have an effect on you.
- Yep. What's, who or what or how do you think, like, you've been defined, like, as am now? Like, what's influenced you to be who you are? Or who? - I guess, well, you have to say your parents, don't you? Like, they bring-- - You don't have to. - Well, yeah. They bring you up and, you know, they obviously instill a lot of that early, like, you have respect for them and respect for other people and show integrity and things like that. So I think definitely them and, I don't know, it's just different people as you go through different phases of life.
You know, you have your school friends where you're sort of one person and then you leave for uni or work and then you have work friends and uni friends that sort of mold you further and then you get into your career and then it's the same again. So, but I've always been in, like, the fitness health space. So, you know, I've been around you guys for a little bit, early days, too, so that probably helped that mold. Out-tinted now. - Bit of both. - Yeah! - Depends on the moment. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. So that
definitely helped that, too, but I don't know if I could go, as a summation, pick, like, one, two, five people that really made me who I am today. - What about recently? So in, like, the last five years, like, when you started here, you were very shy, very not confident, very, like, I wouldn't say sheltered is the word, but, like, closed. - I know what you mean. - Yeah, you know what I mean. And I know you know what I mean, but what about now? So what's made you be a little bit more confident and proud and out there, I guess?
Not out there is probably not a good way of saying it. - Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. I think-- - And this is for me, like, this is a selfish question, because no one else knows what little Emma's like. - Oh, so you want me to say you? - No, no, absolutely not, because that is a horrifying thing for anyone. No, but the change that I've seen you go through in the last kind of, like, five years has been huge. So, like, what's helped you do that? - I think-- - You're saying you're a shit person before that, but, like, you know.
- Glad you told people, glad you told people that part. - Hey, I say lots of nice things about you, thank you very much. - Just not to my face. I got it. - Sometimes, you're right. - Yeah. (laughing) I think, so, I'm someone who, you just have to throw yourself in the deep end and do it. So, like, even if it's uncomfortable, like, you know, at the start, I definitely needed to be pushed into that, which, you know, the internship helped with that. You guys as coaches, you know, throwback to, like, Katie, obviously, you, Cam, Lachie.
- Yeah, big throwback. - Was definitely, definitely pushed that, yeah, huge throwback, but definitely-- - No one left. - I know, still standing. (laughing) - Still so old, yeah. (laughing) - Hey. - Oh, no, I know. - So, yeah, you guys definitely helped with that, and then there was opportunities that if I wanted to take them, I needed to put myself in that situation. So, like, even at footy, you know, I moved into a bit of a leadership role, and then I was trying my hand at VFL, so I just kind of had to be
pushed into those scenarios, and then at uni, you know, you have to do presentations, you have to develop an understanding of things, and I've got two degrees and a huge hextet, so I've done that rodeo twice. - Feels. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, I think that's just set me up for scenarios where if I've wanted to do something, I've just thrown myself into the uncomfortable and just done it. - How did you begin to kind of like cultivate that? 'Cause it's hard to start. - Yeah, I think people encouraged me at first. Like, if I go back again to the internship and you guys, you know, it was like, will you get up and explain what this means?
- Yeah, I don't care what you say, but you're in charge. - Yeah, yeah, and it's just, you know, you can do it, go on, like. - We trust you. - Yeah, it's gonna be fine. And you sort of go, oh, okay, and it starts off in like a small environment where you're relatively comfortable, and then you sort of progress onto other things, and then there's some things that are just straight up uncomfortable. Like, I had to go and present to a football club really recently, and the coach just said, "Hey, can you come down tonight "and have a chat to the boys?"
And you know, it's all these senior dudes who don't know me, haven't met me from a bar or soap, and there's sort of, you know, 40 to 60 of them, and you're like, all right, I'm here to tell you about what you need to do for your athletic performance, what you need to do for your rehab, what you should be doing, you know, to manage yourself in the season and stuff, and sort of have that many people looking at you who don't know you, and you know, you're trying to make a good impression. Now I just do it.
I think I've lost a bit of the factor of, not all of it, but a bit of caring what people think or how they perceive you. So, like, I understand now that that's less about me and more about other people, so I think I don't take it on board as much as I used to take it on board. - And I think when talking to bigger groups and stuff, like 10% are gonna listen to you. - Yeah. - It's like, nah, they laugh, don't care, to an extent. - Yeah. - They don't remember. - Pretty much.
- For some of my words, they don't remember. They go home and eat their dinner and forget that I was even there. - Yep, yep. - What about kind of how did you get started in like the health fitness reason? Because this comes from a background of a little insight that I got, which I did not know, actually. So, Eb told me that your family's not really sporty. - Well, they've all played sport. As kids, they all played sport and they're very competitive. Like, my parents are very competitive, for sure. So, I would have an idea that I wanted to play something or do something and I'd just wanna be all in.
I'd be like, can you drive me to tennis? I'm also thinking about soccer. What do you think about athletics? And they're just like, we can't be everywhere at one assembly. You're gonna have to narrow that down and choose. But, like, my dad played footy and, you know, like all dads, he'll tell you, he was great, but-- - Handed by New Year's Eve. - Yeah, exactly. If it wasn't for his car, he would have made it. - Yeah, I love those ones. - And my mom did, I think, like, netball early days and then got into kickboxing and stuff.
And there was a while there where she was working at Oz Post, like riding her bike, like riding a push bike. So, they've all been relatively fit. So, I think that's where it stems from. But I think the competitive side definitely pushed me to get into that space. - How many siblings do you have? - Just one, just one younger sibling. Yeah, she's younger. - What does she do? - She works at Luna Park, which is ridiculous if you met her, 'cause she's just not a people person or, like, just not into fun and theme rides and stuff.
- Extroverted. - Yeah, yeah, she's very, very introverted. And if you heard her speech at my 30th, that would be very apparent. - I could, I could imagine. - Yeah, it was half a roast, but she was trying to be nice. - Yeah, yeah. - She had too many drinks and she was awkward. - It's an unintentional roast of trying to be nice. - Yeah, but I got it and my friends were mortified. They were like, "Who is this young girl?" - I love that. - It was good though, it was so funny. And she works at a restaurant now too.
So she's done, she's more creative than me. So she's done a creative writing and editing course and stuff like that. So I think she's just trying to get into that eventually. But yeah, she's not sporty even a little bit. So it's quite polar opposites, which was great for all our teachers in high school. - You were the siblings that weren't really siblings. - Yeah, you can demonstrate tennis 'cause you're related to M. Wallace and that she's just hated me for it. Yeah, she's like, "I've got no hand on it." - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, exactly, exactly.
- So there's three things I wanna talk about. Athletic life, there's educative, it's a good word. And then personal life. So from an education point of view, have you always been naturally pretty switched on and book smart? - Or at the start, I'm gonna say no or yes and no. I was really bad with something if I wasn't invested with it like I did not wanna spend any time on it. Some stuff at the start, like math, I was like, "Oh, no, I'm not interested. When is this gonna help me?" But then other stuff, I was always interested in biology and PE and I put all into that.
So I think I'm very motivated to invest in the education stuff if it serves me. But I wasn't great if I didn't see the value in it. - Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. How did you find high school from an education point of view? - Ooh. - Is it to an extent shapes a little bit of the path in what you do? - Yeah. - 'Cause for me, I didn't know what sport science was until I got to year 11, so. - Yeah, well, pretty much the same for me, I think. I was always around, sport was always my thing and then I liked obviously the training aspect and exercise stuff and biology, I liked too.
So I think it was the same at careers day when they were like, "Oh, this is a thing you can do." And I was like, "Oh yeah, I'll do that." - Sounds fun. - Yeah, it sounds like something I'd wanna do. - I think that's 98.9% of sports science students. Sounds fun, I like sport. - Sounds fun, yeah. Oh God, there's the math again. Pops up pretty quick. - It's funny you say that because I really, really enjoy math and like that technical side of things and numbers, but I didn't do math in year 11 or 12.
- Yeah, right. - Didn't need it. I did chemistry instead, so I did the other side of numbers. - Yeah, right. - Industry. - Yeah, nice. What's on, just while we're about 23 minutes in, if anyone can hear any background music, Jazz is playing some fat bangers downstairs. I don't know what's going on, but I walked in today and Jazz was, I don't know Jazz's, I can't be bothered, it's early mood, but I think I experienced it downstairs and it was manic, it was giggly, it was crazy, and then there's some bangers playing downstairs. So you hear that in the background, that's Jazz being Jazz today.
- She hides it well. - Yeah, she does, she does. What else about high school? What did high school look like? What did life look like? Not look like. Life like. - Yeah, look like. - Let's not bring up those memories. (laughing) - High school, so I went to Hampton Park, just like public high school. - Did you grow up that way? - I grew up in Cranbourne, but it was just easier, like commute-wise with like family and stuff to go there. So I did originally start in the, I don't know if you wanna call it enriched math and English class, but I don't know how much-- - Advanced, accelerated.
- Yeah, I don't know how accelerated it was, but we'll call it that. - Spade to spade. - Yeah, exactly, exactly, I'll take it. And I sort of, I was always involved in sport, like school sport, team sport, and then eventually into senior school, I moved into house captain, things like that, a sports captain, things like that. So I was always good with the educational side, or mostly good with the educational side, everyone goes through year nine, you know? - Oh, year nine. - Where it drops off a bit, yeah. (laughing) - The one that teachers hate, you know.
- Yeah, exactly, the feral group. - Makes sense looking back there, yeah. (laughing) - Exactly, but then sort of came out of that and I guess got into some leadership roles even from then, like quite early. But yeah, I was always doing school sports or at athletics and things like that, yeah. - What about away from school at that time? Like what were you doing in your spare time? Like friend group, like weekends? - Oh, I was, yeah. - Still sporty, like obviously, but. - Yeah, so I still played, I still played footy for when I was 16, so that was my Saturdays or Sundays whenever they were at that time at some probably stupid time in the morning.
- What was that like back in, I'm gonna say back in the day, but. - It was back in the day, you can say that. - It was to a extent, 'cause it was like early-ish inception of women's footy. - Yeah. - Yeah, so what was that like? Looking back now, seeing the explosion that it's kind of gone through. - Yeah, so I had the idea, I didn't even know where I got the idea, but I had the idea I wanted to play footy, like I wanted to start playing footy and then found out there was actually a women's team, or like a youth girls team in Cranbourne.
And I went down, I actually, I practised first with my dad. - Of course you did. - Because I didn't want to look like an idiot. - Of course you did. - Yeah, so I was like, "Dad, you need to teach me how to kick." So like, obviously he did, he helped. He was pretty excited that I was going down to try and play footy. And the first session I went down, I remember Jess Wallace was there, so shout out Lockie Wallace's younger sister. - No, not shout out Lockie Wallace, shout out Jess Wallace. - I'm shouting out Jess, but I'm saying the association.
Anyway, 'cause everyone asks me if I'm related to him. - Yeah, true. I was actually gonna ask that later, like, are you annoyed by this question? - No, I'm not, but I'm also not related. I'm past it now. And like even- - I'm past it now. (laughing) - And some of the girls I played with from youth girls into senior, they're now playing AFLW 'cause they were just really good. - Sure. - Yeah. And I sort of, they had played with the boys and developed proper skills and went on that path. But it was great to play footy with them at the start.
And you know, we were, well, I was not very good at the start, I was terrible. 'Cause you go from no contact sport to someone hitting you and you're like, "Oof, I don't know about this." - This is different. - Yeah. But yeah, then we sort of got to a stage where the club got a VFL license and then we were playing higher level footy. And that was an eye-opener for sure. You're playing some pretty stacked teams and losing by a lot. (laughing) But it was so good to see, you know, our friends all slowly like move up.
As it sort of started, there was the two teams that would just do an exhibition match. And then it moved into like more teams. So then more people got drafted and- - 2011, '12-ish? - Yeah, maybe not that early, maybe a bit later than that. I knew there was like- - 2012 maybe. - Yeah, there was like a few years of it where they were sort of doing it, you know, it was very infrequent and then it built from there and then it really exploded from there. So yeah, it was good to see everyone get their opportunities and get to do what they're good at.
Yeah, it was great. - What did you, I know kind of the background of this question, but do you ever think that was a possibility for you? - I tried, I thought, I'll give it a go. But I don't think I had the time available to try and develop the skill that I needed to do 'cause the fitness was fine. The awareness was okay, but I think, like I was kind of good at, you know, the skill side of things, but not good enough for someone to be like, she's got a really good kick, you know, like your awareness, you know, in the midfield is elite, so.
- What did giving it a go look like? - I tried out at Sains first, so. - It was my first year. - Yeah, yeah, so first year. - So I've got some insight that I'm gonna provide you in a minute there. - Oh no. (laughing) So I tried out there. - Panic, panic, panic. - I tried out there and like I said, I sorta, I wasn't where I needed to be to make the team. So I went back and played local. And then I think I tried again, it sank to another year, got invited
back and did another pre-season there and got further, but it was still like, you know, by that stage, there were already girls that were in the programs and then it was harder to try and like get on a list. And then I went down to Box Hill for a full pre-season and I got offered to stay on as part of like a development squad, which is like, you train with the team, but you'll play with your local team. And I think that was a real eye-opener for me at that time, 'cause I was sort of trying to manage studying osteo.
I was working at the gym morning and night, and then I was trying to play footy and obviously train at Box Hill. So I just sorta said to them, like, I don't think I can commit to that. Like I was tired. (laughing) - Is that a hard decision to make? - Yeah, it was, 'cause you sorta need to, I knew I was spreading myself way too thin and I knew that just something had to give. And like in terms of, it might've been different if they were like, you're on the list, but you know, you need to improve to play consistently.
Then I might've said like, okay, we'll just try and make this work for a little bit longer. But being in development, it's probably, it was probably better that someone else got a chance who's a little bit younger and probably doesn't have as many commitments so they can actually get through. Whereas I was sort of at the back end of my playing age. It probably wasn't worthwhile. - What, did you try and fill the void with something else? - I went back to local footy, which was, it's hard when you've trained at a level and then you go back to local and you're in that middle space that's just like, yep, okay.
- I can highly relate to that. So that's the reason I actually stopped playing sport altogether. - Yeah, okay. - Playing higher level to local and going, I don't want this. - Yeah. - Like literally I was like, I can't do this. - Yeah, that was my last year of footy. - I'm someone who like, I'll do something to get better at it and want to be not the best at it, but as best as I can be. And when you go sometimes from a high level to a lower level, like I didn't want to do that at all.
It's just not interesting. Like it's not stimulating or instilling like higher performance and I was like, yeah, I can't do this like, I'm done. I'm just gonna call myself, washed up and I'm just gonna drift off into the box. - That's what I did. - Yeah, so nice. - I think it's hard when you've kept meeting constant challenges and then you have a standard that you want to uphold. And then it's just hard, particularly in a large team sport to try and get that same stimulus consistently. And it's nobody's fault, it's just how it is obviously.
There's a lot more resources the higher you go. - Yeah, I understand. But I sort of found that too. I was just not really in it. - Yeah, it's one of those things that you find yourself getting more frustrated at the things that shouldn't be frustrating. - Yeah. - So you just drive yourself around in circles and go, I can't do this anymore. - Yeah, pretty much, that's pretty much how it happened. - How'd you get down osteopath from sports science? - So I did my clinical exercise in sports science. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go into EP.
So I thought I just need a year off study and then I'll make up my mind from there. In my year off, I went to Europe for nine weeks. It was fantastic. - Europe. - Yes, very good. - Did you like South Croatia or something else basic? - Oh yeah, I was like 25. Of course I did. (laughing) Yeah, so I did that. And then I sort of didn't know if I wanted to come back. I knew I wanted to do more than just exercise science. But then I didn't know if I wanted to get into physio or if I should do something else.
And I sort of spoke to a few people and they really raved about their osteos and they said they loved them. Like it's such a holistic approach. And I thought, well, I'll go to an open day and see what it's actually about. And I thought it was great. Like the way they approach things, you could still treat like a physio if you wanted to, but it's a bit more holistic and I know-- - Moving is medicine. - Yeah, and I know Greg talks a lot about like regional interdependence, which is a lot of the basis of like how osteo is as well.
So I, yeah, I went to an open day and then I went to RMIT and Vic Uni, the only unis that offer osteo in Victoria. So I enrolled at both seeing which one gave me the better timetable and had the better options and then unenrolled in the other one. So I ended up at Vic Uni for you to do my osteo degree. - How was that? - Yeah, it was challenging. It was hard. - I remember that period for you being like, ah, I didn't just manage. - Yeah, it was just chaos. Like I was just trying to get through.
And I remember I was still trying to play footy while I was at uni. And I think it was like second or third year. And then they made like the interleague team. So I was playing local footy and then doing interleague training. And then they wanted me to be captain of the interleague, like the inaugural interleague team as well. I was still working at IFP in the mornings and the evenings. So that was just chaos. And I remember one of my exams, we had to draw some nerve pathway or something. - Oh, that old one? - Yeah, I just wrote.
- I think we've all seen that question of an exam. It's some stage during health and fitness sports. - Yeah, exactly. - Continuum. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I just remember writing on the page like, I'm sorry, but I don't, but I don't know. And the teacher called me and he was like, you're better than this. I don't know what this is, but you can't have this on. - I love that. That's such a, you like, nah, I've done it. - Yeah, I was just like, I'm sorry. I apologise on the page though. So it makes up for it, doesn't it?
Yeah, so I was trying to do a lot and obviously too much. 'Cause he's like, you need to like decrease your load a little bit because it is full on. Like the course is, the course is a lot more than I think people think it is. Yeah, it's just one of those two cents. - Oh, it's the basketball. - Yeah. (laughing) - Anyway, how's you? - Oh God, I've lost me now. - Good one, Banksy. - Yeah, come on Banksy. Let's use obsessive balls. - Yeah, I saw that. I noticed it earlier. - Oh, that's crazy, that's crazy.
Motor neurons, not drawing. Sorry, life crazy. - That's right. - Implode. - Yeah, exactly. - Continue. - Yeah, so it is full on, but I'm guessing physio is the same, but it sort of asks a lot. So you meet the demands, like if really wanting to be in it. I know the dropout rate's pretty high early on. And then again, before the masters. So osteo was hard in general. You've got a lot of assignments, and you're trying to do hands-on learning, and a lot of biology learning, and I know we had wet labs as well.
And then you have OSCEs too, so you have to do in-person exams where someone just makes you talk the whole time, and you've got to show them you have the skills. And some of them were pretty hard. Like resits are pretty common in osteo, especially if you crack someone's neck, and you've got someone who almost is an exorcist and turns around all the other way. You're like, "I'm not gonna be able to do this." - Whoopsie. - Yeah, sorry if I know. But yeah, so got through it. So not too badly. Yeah. - What was the biggest challenge aside from the workload?
- I think some things I didn't find valuable, which is going back to like, this is obviously traits I had in high school. I found it very hard to put in things that I don't value or don't see any value from. So they were particularly pretty hard to get through, but then I think I learned to structure my time in terms of what I put effort into and what I don't. I was sort of like, "I'm gonna do enough here "to just get through on this, "'cause I don't think it provides much for me "in the future."
Yeah, and then I'm gonna put a lot of effort into this, 'cause I think it will have a huge return. - Yeah, and it's nearly impossible when you're a student to get value out of everything. It's not designed to get value out of everything. It's designed to cater for the 80%. - Yeah, exactly. - 20% of what you're actually interested in is what you can go and do. So clinical for me was like, "I'm not doing that." It was the same as me. I was like, "I'm happy to put in very little effort "and probably send in some assignments late, "but I'm okay with that."
Doesn't matter because I'm really interested in that, and that's what I'm gonna go down. - Yeah, pretty much. - It's a bit prioritizing too. - I think uni undervalues that to an extent. - Yeah, a little bit, I think so, I think so too. - All right, we've got about 20 minutes left. - Okay. - Just before, 'cause you gotta drive back to single road Cranbourne. - Yeah, yeah. (laughs) - What about rehab interest you? So we're gonna shift to, we're gonna talk shot for 20 minutes. You get a nerd out here. This is your permission to nerd.
- Thanks. I think, like most people will say that during the rehab space, you're like the problem solving aspect of things. And I think that paired with just the person I am wanting to care for people or help people, it just molds in quite well. Like I-- - It'll be tough because you kind of did this one a little bit, set up and goes, "All right, talk shot, let's go." - Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, exactly, I'm committed. So no, I find it really rewarding, I think, taking people from initial injury. And I am a bit of, I shouldn't admit this, but I'm a bit of a control freak.
So I like-- - You remember that? - Yeah, so-- - You like your thing done your way. - Yeah, so I like seeing people from like pre and then helping them develop a plan of how they're gonna get through. What's that gonna look like? What's their end stage? What are their goals to get there? And then how am I gonna facilitate that and how are they gonna achieve that? So I think I like being able to follow them from the start and then help them all the way through their journey to get to a point where they're back doing what they love or like just say trust their bodies again is a huge thing as well, yeah.
- Which is why I wanted to talk to you about systemizing the continuum because I know that you love that shit. And I know that you probably didn't know that, I knew that about you, but that's why we're here. So what's it look like from like general overview broad, like start to finish, like in your world, how do you go about systemizing start to finish? - So I think initially, I like people to come in and have a conversation as early as possible. So I want people to know what it's gonna look like. So I
think that's the biggest thing is you have to set out what the expectations are because if you initially say to an ACL or something, you're devastated. So initially you're like, this is it, I can't play sport anymore. You go into a catastrophizing mode. Like what do I do? Who do I see? And do you hear that with some young people that they go to the GPs and they're like, oh, do you have a surgeon? Why would I have a surgeon? Like, who would I know to go see, you know? So I think I like getting them in early and then just taking away that unknown.
So setting the expectations and them knowing that, okay, there's a plan, there's a process. I know how it's gonna look good and bad. And then I know what's gonna happen out the other side of it. So I think that's the first thing I like to tick off from a starting point. Yes, you're still allowed to feel pretty average about it. Like it's significant or even an insignificant injury. Like if you're sort of around a finals time and you wanna play, like it's pretty devastating. So I think just setting the expectation for people at the start allows you to then build the system from that, that they can actually achieve or excel or at least know how it's going to look.
- What are your like base expectations? Like what are your common ones? Do you always seem to bring yourself back to? - In terms of expectations from the person? - Both. - So I have pretty high expectations from myself, firstly, to be able to provide this person the care that they need. And if I don't think I'm the person for that, I will send them elsewhere. So I think that's first what you have to recognize. Like, is this something actually for me or is this something that needs to go further than me? Or do I need to involve someone else in their care?
I think the other thing is like, I will tell the person what the process looks like, but then what's also expected from them in the process for it to go smoothly. So, you know, if someone's early, like post-op for say ACL or something like that, you know, there's expectations of what they have to do across the first two to four weeks to set their rehab up well, so that they're where they want to be in, you know, four months, six months, nine months. So I will explain that to them quite clearly so they know what the expectations are and then what it looks like if they're meeting them or not meeting them.
- What if someone doesn't meet them? - Well, I mean, I used to get quite stressed about that. So I think I would definitely project onto people and be like, you're not doing as much as you need to do. You're not going to be where you want to be, but like, yeah, I'm like, what are you doing? But some people just don't care enough about it. And I think I've stopped taking that on board as being my responsibility to make them care. You can only give people all the information and then they can do what they want with that.
But if you just set out the expectation of you, if you're coming in the gym two times a week, you're not going to, you know, this is your volume. This is someone who's coming in like, you know, six times a week. - There's 168 hours in a week and that's three of them they're using. - Yeah, exactly. As opposed to someone else who's using 18. Like you're not going to be on the same time continuum in, you know, your goals and outcome measures and return to run, train, play. And then you can't then get upset. And that point is not there for you because you're not meeting the benchmarks that I've clearly set out for you.
- Yep, what are your metrics that you use to start with? What do you work off? Generally, let's say it's just like a lower body injury. That's a bit easier, I think. - Yeah, well generally I think like most people are the same and you want to restore their range of motion. You know, there's restrictions around some things, but you want to restore it to best of ability and then make sure you protect the area so it can actually heal properly and you're not putting extra stress on other things around the area or putting them under loads or stress that will affect their motor control.
So you're trying to sort of maintain some neurological input, get them some stimulus, but nothing that will annoy the joint or the area that's healing and then sort of work through to get their range of motion and improve their range of motion. - Yep. - Oh, hey Baxie. - Hello Baxie, just let yourself in. - Yeah, why not? - No worries, Kiel. - And then sort of from there you want to lose as little capacity as you can in everything. So for me generally I try and maintain their load or stimulus around the other things.
So like you can still train upper body, you can still maintain some aerobic capacity and there is some good research articles and outcomes in maintaining aerobic capacity whilst in early rehab and the effects that has for healing. So that's generally the things I'm trying to work around is restore their range of motion, try and maintain or restore their function and then try and lose as little functional capacity as possible during that stage without doing anything to harm the injured area. So you want to protect that joint site. - Yeah, what are some like common, not mishaps, but areas of kind of like confusion that the body goes through like in early stage?
- That the body goes through? - Yeah, or mind. - Yeah, so I think there's a fear response. Yeah, which is normal. And then with that fear response, obviously there's the inhibition of motor control. So you do adapt to ways of moving and you change how you move or how you load. I think that's a lot of what happens, which isn't necessarily mishap, that's very normal. And it's like our job to try and decrease the amount of that that happens. So then they rehab set up for success later. I think another thing is some people get to a point where they're like, it feels good, I'm gonna push it.
And I've definitely had that before where I've had someone go, my knee feels really good. I'm four months down the track of ACL. I'm gonna go for one kilometer time trial on concrete. - No, no, no, let me in, let me in. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm like, the next day they're like, my knee's pretty sore, I don't know what I've done. Yeah, oh my God, I've ruined the graft. And I'm like, no, it's actually a lot stronger than that. But as a, however, weight rugby player, you can't be sprinting on concrete after a one iron box squat because your knee felt good 'cause now this is where you are.
So I think sometimes people get a bit overzealous, which is, it's great that they're at a position that they feel good, but you need to probably reinforce it. Yes, I know it's going well, but that doesn't mean we just send it at the first opportunity we get and so. - If you were to define like your philosophy of your approach to rehab or your systems, yeah, I know you love this. - Oh God, the philosophy question. - I actually don't think I've asked someone's philosophy yet. - Yeah. - It might be the first one. Seven or eight episodes in.
- You've asked twice. - That's impressive. - And I still don't have a good one. - Now looking back and reflecting, that's impressive. - Oh, good work. - Philosophy on systems, what does it look like? - So I spoke about this in another podcast briefly. I think the first thing is you have to meet the person where they're at and that's what I was talking about, expectations of what they're actually willing to put in. And then like, it is my responsibility, but it is also their responsibility. So I think you can give someone the best plan, but whether they're gonna buy in as much as you think they're gonna buy in is different.
And that sometimes there is setbacks in rehab. You know, sometimes there is little things you can't help or, you know, there is times where you wanna push forward, but you have to pull back a little bit. That's totally normal. So just being willing to accept those, you know, like dips in their rehab process and then be able to push them back. - What are some tools you use to set up your systems? - So I usually like macro cycle plan out someone's rehab. So like from start to finish, what it looks like. So I'll usually reverse engineer rehab programmes.
All right, what is the end stage look like? - How do you track that? - Usually there's some time, there's some time periods of like when you can and can't implement things. But like, it's also, you can use SNC principles to know, like, you know, it's gonna take 12 weeks to make substantial hypertrophy or strength gains like pretty consistent training and what volumes and loads that needs to be and what that looks like. But then you can sort of plan that out or map that out from there. And then I'll usually do them depending on the injury, whether they're days, weeks or month blocks.
And then each block will have a training week in that block and what that week looks like to set them up for success when I'm testing it at the end of that block. - Software wise, how do you track the macro? - I do all my macros in an Excel spreadsheet. So thereby like a phase, the goal of that phase, what we're working on in terms of the goals or the criteria they have to meet, I'll give that to the athlete as well. So they know what they are clearly. And then it's usually like the
correctives I need to give them for the stage of rehab that they're in, what off legs conditioning they're doing, what's their strength focus, their running mechanics. So they'll start really early. So it sets them up to be in good stead to run well when they first go to run and then their return to contact continuum or their skills work as well if it's appropriate. And then I usually program that all at the moment on train heroic, sort of being like phase blocks for most people. - Do you set up templates or like structure wise? -
Yeah, so I had a lot of templates that I worked on when I was at access that were on team builder, but then obviously I moved over to train heroic. So I'm building all those templates again, which is great. - I remember doing that from Excel and Google Sheets into train heroic. - Yeah, so-- - It's an arduous process that if you have interns, it's fantastic. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't have that. - You probably did some of it actually. We might not have had train heroic back actually when you did your internship. - Yeah, I don't know if you did, but yeah.
So now I'm in the process of just, I'm just doing them as they're coming through rather than trying to do it all at once. - What's your exit criteria look like? - For any lower-- - Just on lower body injury. - In terms of return to play? - Yeah, let's go return to train. - Return to train, like gym or-- - Yeah, so running contact, anything like that as well. - Oh, so training, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, just in general, like what do you take someone through to clear them through different stages of their rehab, I think is probably a better question.
- It's quite different through different injuries, but I want them to generally have like an asymmetry measure. So what percentage of asymmetry they are from limb to limb, and then-- - What's your favorite one for that? - For the asymmetry or-- - Yeah, some general ones you use, yep. - We use the valve equipment for that stuff, which is good. So generally it's the dyno to start, or we have some capacity testing for like, you know, single leg squats or bridges or things like that, because you can't, you can get through box squats at a very high load with two legs and cheat.
You can't cheat with one leg. So we try and get them on one leg as soon as possible. So then you're sort of making up for the strength losses and the motor control losses, as well as like them not being able to cheat out loading that leg. But generally, yeah, we will have some sort of functional capacity for single leg loading, some asymmetry gaps that we want to close or limb symmetry indexes of like around 80%, when they're going back to training. Sometimes it's a little bit higher, depending on what you're looking for. We want them to be able to handle impact forces.
So be able to do plyometrics quite comfortably. So whether that's single leg pogo, single leg jumps, drop jumps, box jumps, things like that. We'll generally test that on a force plate as well, just to make sure the symmetry is there. 'Cause you sort of don't want to let them go back in to running. And there's been something underlying that's quite significant. And then you're trying to chase tail when they're back in training and you can't catch up. So that's probably some of the indicators, but I know I'm going to listen back to this and be like, "Oh, I forgot a rank of five things."
- I think it's impossible for us to think of everything in the moment. - Yeah, but that's why I write it down. Like I have to write it down in a macro plan for that reason. - Yeah, hard to say, I'm the same. Like if I don't see it, I'm not going to think about it until I go back and look at something else and go, "Yeah, probably should do that too." What does anything change? Let's say you get rid of a hurdle, right? Someone's not out in their system. How do you communicate and then process that with the athlete?
- So I have had this, like I've definitely had this happen. - I think it's common. - Yeah, I've had it happen where there's been a breakdown of communication with like myself and the athlete or myself and the like medical staff or for whatever reason, there's something underlying. Like I know one of the guys that I was rehabbing at one stage was rehabbing an ACL, but he could tolerate running around the oval one direction. He couldn't tolerate running around the oval in the other direction. - Yeah, I've had this too. - So I was like, you should be tolerating this, like not really understanding.
But he also did come to me quite late in his rehab. Like he was already like six weeks in or something by the time he came in to see me. So I was like, maybe it could be something to do with his early rehab that he hasn't done that we've missed out on. But I had to sort of chase up his surgical reports and I called the surgeon and I was like, what's going on? And then he said, oh no, he's had a meniscal repair as well. My God, this information would have been great at the start.
Yeah, but you know, I rang the athlete straight away and I was like, look, you know, 'cause he thought he's had his graft fail before. And then I explained to him, this is the reason the first graft probably failed is 'cause there was something that was missed and it's not intentional or like anyone's fault. It's just, it is hard to pick up. And that's not what's happened this time. Like this time it's just a little bit annoyed because there's been something we should have worked around but for whatever reason you didn't know and I didn't know.
Which I'll take that on board, like I probably should have spoke to the surgeon myself if he was coming in late. But then we just pivot. So it didn't take the running completely away from him. We just adjusted the surface he did on, the directions he did it in and he did more linear stuff. And then we worked on some more strength capacity measures in a range that his knee would like more to facilitate him being able to return. And he's also had, I did say, you know, you've had two recodes essentially quite close together. Like it's gonna be a little bit sensitive to swelling and you know, overloading and stuff.
So I think so long as you communicate it with the athlete and you get them to a point like they understand, they feel okay about it and give them space to actually take it on board first. Like don't just lay all the information on them and then go, okay, great. So I'll see you when you come in next. So you have to actually give them space and say, do you have any questions? Is there anything I'm unsure of? Are you worried about anything? And then talk that through with them. And most people are pretty responsive to that.
- Yeah. - Yeah. Especially if you say like, it's no one's fault. Like don't throw shade on the surgeon or you know, their physio beforehand. It just doesn't do anything for anyone. So yeah. - Yes, two questions before we finish. - Okay. - Question one, what does, what can athletes do now to stop them having to be in your clinical room? What can they do better? - I think people can be a lot more committed to their training. I think a lot of people are underloading. So I think a lot of people overload the running and the conditioning.
I think a lot of people underload the strength training and the recovery. I think there's definitely not enough recovery that people are doing to actually allow themselves to have that, you know, that neurological down regulation to be able to go again. I think everyone's running, you know, up here and we've all done it. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. Everyone's, yeah, okay, cool. - Four years. - Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think a lot of people are, yeah, underdoing the strength training, like appropriate strength training for sport, which looks very different to how a lot of people like to.
- Bodybuilding splits. - Yeah, bench press and barbell row and then forget about their legs. Yeah, yeah. So like generally I think you need somewhere like five sets of volumes of eight to 10 or something at a certain percentage of their body weight to actually make consistent muscular gains and then you lose it if you're not hitting that. So I don't, a lot of people aren't hitting that at all. So that's a good way to not let me see you when you're injured. - 'Cause that's the thing about like a lot of rehab is like, I love hanging out with you, but I don't really wanna hang out with you.
- Yeah, you don't wanna see me. - Especially at science, we say, well, obviously you do, obviously I did a little bit of rehab and now when jazz comes over, it's like, yeah, we like hanging out with you, but we'd rather not. We like when we don't have to do anything this time. - Second question before, or last question before we finish talking shop and then I'm gonna ask you a couple others, but it's okay. - Okay, sorry. - What are you excited about in the rehab space? - I'm excited that it's progressing. So where rehab was to where it is now is, it's a huge difference.
Like it's really growing the expectation of what practitioners know and the SNC part of it is huge. Like people are really starting to nail the outcomes for rehab and how that looks and what people can tolerate. Like it's just, the rehab game is just leveled up and it's great. It's great for anyone. - Less crab blocks and banded EOS. - Yeah, exactly. There's like, there's progression, it's monitored, it's specific, it's safe. It allows- - Technology is coming along. - Yeah, and you, yeah, you get to, you get all these technologies that can measure things really accurately and objectively, which is fantastic.
- Makes our life so much easier and so much harder. - Yeah, well, both, yeah, you're right. I'll take both. - That's why we do it. All right, and we are going to wrap it up. What'd you like about the last hour? What'd you talk about you didn't think you're gonna have to talk about? - High school. - That's an easy one, that gets everyone. - Yeah, so high school, I didn't think. - 'Cause not a lot of these episodes come out yet. They will know when this one gets released. No one quite knows what's coming, which is such a nice place to be.
- Yeah, great. Yeah, I didn't think high school was gonna get brought up. The philosophies and values always get me a little bit, but they're, it makes sense. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate asking those questions, so you're unlucky that I asked you those questions. - Yeah, that's all right, I don't mind them. - Second or last question before we actually finish. Who would you like to hear from? - Oh, who would I like to hear from? - So Campbell is coming on when he gets his shit together. - I heard that. - Yeah, when he gets his shit together.
He's canceled on me three times, but. - Yeah, that sounds about right for Campbell. - I know how Campbell works. - Campbell, I reckon Boone. You gotta get Tyler. - Yeah, he's on my list. - Yeah. Who else? I'm trying to throw you someone left field. - Yeah, give me someone who is not in our worlds, but is in your world. So I have someone I will ask very nicely to talk to in your world. - Oh, yes. - Yeah, go on. - Yeah, yeah, get Ebony Hobson on the podcast. - That's one, because I think it's gonna be entertaining as shit.
- Yeah, or you could get her and Todd together. That would be good. - Yeah, that'd be fun. - Yeah. - I haven't seen Todd in years. - Yeah, the racing game's lifted. - Oh, so much so. - He's gone over to America. - And that's what I want to talk about, 'cause it's a different space. - Yeah, yeah, it'd be good. It's so interesting. All the moto sports I find really interesting. Yeah, so that'd be good. Yeah, other than that, I don't really have another one for you. - Oh, I like that. 'Cause that was the person I was thinking of.
All right, Em, thank you for coming on. - Thanks for having me. - Are you sure? - Yeah. - Not too painful. You look more comfortable now. - I am comfortable. - Do we do a heart rate check? This is a normal for our guests, and we did do one on the start. - 78, I'm actually feeling all right. - That's pretty good. Jazz noise is about 95, so. - Yeah, right. It's not too bad. I'll take that. - Pretty calm and cool. I'll take that as well. All right, Em, thanks for coming. We're out of here.
Another episode of Veritas Podcast. Welcome to Lucy. - Have a good day.
