S1E98 · Jordan Verdouw: People, Place and Complex Beauty

Hey legends, welcome back to the Virtus Performance Podcast. Today we're at episode number 98, getting ever so close to episode 100. Getting very excited to raising the bat with the crew for the Christmas special, which are to be confirmed which date we'll do it, but it will be up on iTunes, Podbean and Spotify for your Christmas morning commute. So you get a bunch of idiots talking about the year. Hopefully it will be nice and entertaining. Big thank you to everyone for listening, for you guys taking the time out of your very important schedules to listen to me chat to our guests.

Today's guest I am very fortunate to have back from Burundi, a little country in East Africa. He's been there for the last seven months. This guy is probably one of the nicest, greatest, most genuine humans you'll ever meet. He won't tell you that himself. He's sitting in front of me giving me the bird right now. We've just had an exceptional conversation around life, around complex beauty, time, curiosity, people, place. Just one of those conversations that will make you a better person I think, if you listen, maybe. Anyway, give me some feedback. If you like it, please share, subscribe, do all that kind of stuff.

If you don't, share, subscribe, do all that kind of stuff. It doesn't really matter. Be amazing. Here we go. Here's Jordy. So don't even say your name. It's Jordan Verdout everybody. Hello. Hello. My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Hi, ladies. Jordan, mate. Welcome. Is it on? It's on. It's go time. Yeah. How the hell are you?

Yeah, good. How's your morning been? It's been delightful. Yes, sir. As we just said, a bit of salt water on the skin. Good. And sun rays. Now, I've got lots of things I want to talk to you about today. But I'm going to start with the question I start most of these with. What gets you out of bed in the morning? Well, literally, I have these bird sounds as my alarm. Good. That's the first thing that actually happens. It's got to be significantly better than the honking of an iTunes alarm. I actually couldn't think of anything worse.

Like, even an alarm is quite unnatural. But what gets me out? I think I'm just, I'm genuinely quite an optimistic person who is just very interested in or very appreciative of daylight and colour and life and yeah. Have you always been like that? Yeah, I guess growing up in a family, it's very, I guess, from my dad as well, very observant and very simple in a way. Like values, family and I guess the example is, you could never be driving with dad without him saying, you know, you should be looking out the window. What are you doing?

Look out the window. Stop looking down. Look at it. There's so much to see. Yeah, so I think it's always been kind of curious and just drawn to the simplicity of what a day is. Yeah. Well, when we actually pay attention to it, you realise that that simplicity is actually pretty complex. Like you look outside now and right in front of us, you've got a little garden. Then you look up and it's just like blue skies, sun's streaming in, leaves are rustling. I hope everyone listening to this podcast is in the car looking outside just going, this is pretty fucking cool.

Yeah. I think it's a, you can kind of have both, both approaches. I think it's like a balance. There's times for just simplicity, emptying the mind and resting in it or enjoying it. And then there's times for the curiosity to click in and go down the speed. When are the times that your curiosity kind of like kicks into gear the most? What are you doing? It's easier to make me think. Maybe in, probably actually when I'm comfortable. When I'm in an environment that maybe I've had many simple engagements, you know, just being in there and resting.

And then it kind of allows a platform to, to, to look a little deeper. I do think a little more like I think about times where my mind wanders the most and it tends to be in a place of, of comfort or familiar. And, and maybe it's often, you know, in a natural environment. It's probably a little cliche, but maybe that's just a thing that to be not around concrete is pretty motivating. You've had a pretty big chunk of the last 12 months, not necessarily around concrete. Fill us in on that experience and how to come about all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. It starts a long time ago, but this is like the simplest complex kind of thing. So I've just come back from Burundi, which when I say that name, most people are like, what's that? Not where is that? Cause it's a very small country just south of Rwanda. And, uh, working, I work in the coffee industry. Um, once again, not intentionally. Just never left after working with a roaster here in Melbourne. That seems like a common coffee thing. Like, cause a lot, a lot of people get into fields intentionally and coffee seems to be that like almost a kind of stepping stone to get somewhere else, but a lot of people don't leave it.

Why do you think that is? I think it's, it's almost like you compare a cafe to, cause we're in the consumer side, so that's where I'll go first, but compare a cafe to a restaurant or um, a gallery or, I don't know, cafes are this space where you can have excellence and you can kind of dive down a rabbit hole of quality. Um, but it is so accessible. It's so approachable. You can go in without shoes, just come from the races. It doesn't matter. Like there's just this melting pot of, of, of people. Um, I guess class is kind of not really seen too much.

Uh, more and more now I think in Melbourne there is still division when you're stuck in million dollar budgets and it does become this bit of a cut and paste or it gets a bit funny, a bit clicky, but I think coffee kind of represents coffee in a way that it's kind of the thing that egos can be dropped and it's, it's tries to be quite real. Um, and like anything, you add a lot of humans to it and things get a little trendy and naturally everyone wants a little sexy consumption. Uh, but I think that's why I love doing the same copy because it's, you've got a motivation for people for connection.

Yeah. I guess you've got that like level of connection with the communities that cafes, especially ones that aren't the copy and paste, the ones that have this have soul and the ones that are, that are built off people's love for sharing things. And then you've got that excellence that comes with wanting to perfect or at least continue to improve a product that, you know, it's certainly something that is very widely available, but the difference between a good coffee and a shitty coffee is, is very easily noticeable once you spend some time over some beans. Yeah.

But even that, like you can, there's probably a lot of people who you kind of almost deny the quality of the thing you're consuming for the quality of the people or the place. Oh, a hundred percent. I really love the word place. Cause that really encompasses people, space and everything. And if that's quality, it doesn't really matter what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's community. Shitty fish and chips on the beach with good crew is just as good as taking anything. Can't be mad. Yeah. I think, yeah. Um, that's, um, uh, mind blank quality. It happens.

Yeah. Nothing wrong with like a big chunk of silence. Cause then everyone can just like stop and look outside and take a breath. Yeah. Look up guys. Yeah. Well, back to then the link with Burundi, the race I was working with here, um, for like, I don't think 80 years kind of part time casual and then full-time post studies. Yeah. Um, one of our producers, one of our suppliers was, uh, a company called one miles coffee based out of Burundi. And I guess my interest, especially, maybe even for this, I mean, like it's, I can't,

I can't just say I've just, yeah, it wasn't irrational, um, uh, which many people seem to think it was at the time like, yeah, 27, you get in late twenties, you just need to change things up. Little early life for us. Just another progression. Yeah. Life's really good. No need to leave. Um, but I just had, I guess, uh, yeah, four or five years ago, I just started to be more interested in what being human is actually about. It's just like, I don't know how to grow food. Like if you drop me somewhere, I would actually wouldn't know how to be human.

I'm just, um, the consequence of the, you know, this system, Western capitalist society that has provided everything I need. And I just have to exist. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. And so it's like, yeah, it's kind of started this curiosity into like, what is it just to, to be a human being like, yeah. Um, and growing up with a few certain constructs and worldviews, it's like, okay, none of these are my own and I don't actually understand how and why they exist. Yeah. Um, and so then when it came to coffee, it was kind of an opportunity to look into supply chains and kind of that same kind of curiosity about like, well, just look deeper.

Like what is this thing that we're part of? And I guess with everything, almost everything comes back to soil and that's been a fascination for me the last couple of years. And I guess in my industry and my profession, that looks like most people who are working with soil are producers and people growing and preparing green, raw product. And last year I, I knew at the start of the year, I was like summoned up with the middle of this year, it's going to be significant. And I just took four weeks annual leave and sent myself to Burundi for two weeks.

I had a connection with this company as well. I do, I've worked with, um, I just said, can I just be a fly on the wall for two weeks? I hadn't been to, I've been to East Africa once before as a 15 year old, but this is a little bit different. Yeah. And, and that was just incredible. And nothing came out of it. It was just, just beautiful people. It was overwhelming at many times and, um, and nothing, yeah, nothing came out. I just remember being like, I just came back and came back to Melbourne. I did another two weeks with my sis in a scandal and then just kind of came back into routine again.

I was like, what is going on? I was like, there was something was supposed to happen in the middle of the last year. And it's funny timelines. Timelines just never, you know, like why plan it? Never happens what you expected anyway. Yeah. And a few months later, a kind of a conversation picked up with part of the team from over there. Just like, Hey, we need someone to, to help us next season with our quality and some with some sensory experience. Yep. And so, yeah, just kind of pursued, well didn't pursue that actually. I was kind of like, Oh, that's a bit of a sidestep or backward step and unknown.

And why would I leave life so good? Um, I have community here. The finish is pretty amazing. No reason to leave. And then I had another, another friend who had asked me, it was another part of our world. And again, I'm pretty incredible invitation just to, to be part of something he was doing. Yeah. Um, and I just had this real, I was like, okay, I need to go. I need to go there and see what it feels like. Awesome. Cause I'm pretty sensitive to place apparently. And even as soon as I landed, I was like, this is not where I need to be.

Yeah. I've got 10 more days here and lucky. He's just such a good friend. Um, and it was just funny just to close the door there and then just feel really motivated to start pursuing this opportunity with long miles coffee. And yeah, I guess even that context, uh, there's a bit of subconscious privilege. I think that sometimes happens with being tall and white and I've not had any crazy jobs or anything, but it's just, I haven't actually ever really had to apply a push for jobs. It's kind of naturally. And that's, that's also been just the value of the people.

Yeah. It's a big part of that would be you putting yourself in places and networking because you're genuinely interested in people and creating those connections, which allow opportunities to arise and vice versa. The people I've happened to connect with generous and connecting, but it was just, it was the first time really I had this shift from something being offered to me, to me actually having to pursue. And I think that was so necessary to me because I can easily be quite apathetic or passive. Um, and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm sending emails and I haven't had a response.

So I was in a second email and I'm like, okay, am I sending it? I'm sending it. I want this. I never, I couldn't answer what I wanted. I was just kind of like, what if it's wrong? That was always my kind of mentality, but this is like, no, this is right. I need to push this. And yeah. So then what, uh, nine months after I had visited there, I'm, I'm signing a contract. I'm quitting a job that's kind of comfortable and enjoyable. And that was all sorts of things and feelings and yeah, but the whole time just so natural, just super drawn.

Just like, yep, I'm not, this isn't irrational. This is totally what needs to happen. So it was like, it was obviously like a natural progressive thing, but was there a catalyst that kind of push you over the line or kind of made you or push you to make that decision or was it just a day after day? You just wanted it more and more and more. I think I could easily just be like, nah, day after day. Just want to be, but I look back through kind of some journaling or, yeah, and it is, it

is yesterday, but I think, but there's definitely, there was many times when I was just my, my routine, my nine to five was not tapping something deep. I think it was over within me. There was something that was lacking and it was good and good school, but it wasn't best. Yeah. And it's just like, when there's, when there's, when it's good, but there's, there's, there's a best, there's always going to be something. And I couldn't always name it, but I think you talked to, I guess some close friends or housemates and it was kind of like, there was many conversations about, I just think I need to quit.

I need to quit. And so I guess there was, yeah, it was kind of a day by day, but it's like, it's built up. Like there's so many experiences and to that moment of like, yep. Okay. And I didn't quit before I signed a contract. I was like, I don't know where this could go. And then as soon as I could sign that contract, then I was like, yeah, I can quit. I can, I can move back. But that feeling of sense of place, just like, yep, that was a build up. But it was like, then there was this moment of like, I want this.

And then that moment turned into like, after I signed a contract, this is a dream. I've written many times in the journal, I want life to be extraordinary. And all of a sudden I'm like, it's going to be extraordinary. This is kind of extraordinary. I'm not worthy of this. Or like, I hadn't thought of myself actually, actually pushing through. Yeah. Things going from head to hands and feet, you know? Yep. But yeah. So then, yeah, that led me to seven months in a very different context to this one. Yeah. Well, before we dive into that, I've always been fascinated by people who do pull the trigger on things like that.

Like they quit the job that is comfortable and is, they do well and they enjoy. For that, almost to dive into the unknown of something that could be, could be wonderful, could be that extraordinary thing you're looking for or could, everything could fall in a heap because it's in the unknown. Why do you think now was the time or then was the time to do it? And what, for people that are sitting in a job they don't love or doing something that's just good, what advice would you have for them? Or what thought process would you kind of push them down?

Yeah. Well, it's just, they're actually like my favourite conversations as well. Yeah. They, and it's just funny that you asked me that because I'm like, "Did I do that? I did that." You did that, yeah. Yeah, they're genuinely my favourite question, that moment that someone has the balls or ovaries to actually make that decision. And I think like maybe there's people who think similar to me, but I know my personality, there's a lot of things from relationships to job decisions to personal things. It's like I can naturally have a mindset of what if it's wrong, which makes me a bit risk averse.

And I'm of some courage and I love people who have an attitude like, "Oh, they're just not that." They don't even ask what if it's right, it's just, just do it. I just don't, that's just not how my brain's wired. I'm a bit, trying not to be risk averse. And when I'm healthy, I'm definitely being more spontaneous. Yeah. I think I, yeah, I was just challenged by a friend a while back and that literally posed that question, like what if it's right? Yeah. And then that I couldn't- So then what if it fails or what if it doesn't?

Yeah. But what if, yeah, what if it's right? Yeah. And then putting equal weight on that instead of, you know, it's like a classic, I'm not a classic, but there's a study that's, you know, it takes a very short time for a bad experience to be kind of imprinted ingrained in your psyche. Definitely. But it takes at, you know, a minimum 15 seconds of a good experience, like non-stop for that to be, you know, like, so we're naturally wired for like, well, I am. Yeah. Like what if it's wrong? Yeah. Like, ah, negative things like protect survival wings didn't work.

Yeah. We definitely respond more fervently to the negative experiences, to the, I guess it's a survival mechanism, right? It's the, okay, well, I want to stay alive or I want to at least want to stay healthy or stay moving forward. So let's not do that. Yeah. But as you would have definitely understand now, and as you made that transition, like those things that are really scary and really exciting at the same time, like they're the things we should be pursuing. Hmm. Yep. I think, and that's something that like, personally, I think I was just realizing that my, my world was very defined and it was quite bound.

Yeah. I would hate to think that. Yeah. And obviously it still is, but I've already known whatever I've seen my own experiences and I can dream about things, but it's only when you actually move your feet or use your hands that, you know, for something new that your world is expanded. I guess there was maybe like a metaphor that I was using to process was like, okay, I've got a palette, like a color, like a painter's palette and I have some colors. And that's all I'm seeing. That's my lens for the world. I can only paint the world with these colors I've experienced and know, and nothing was really, cause I was working hard.

There was a lot of commute, you know, then I started training, which is awesome in this community, which adds a little color or, um, that was better since like, Hey, there's, there's just, there's a lot more color. There's infinite color. And I'm, and me staying here, I'm not going to expand. I'm not going to add any new colors. There's going to be no diversity. And that's not only not a benefit for me or missed opportunity. That's it's good. Again, this is like a good, but what's best. And it's like, okay, I could just live with these colors, but I'm like, no, I don't, I don't want to, there's more, you know, there's, there's all these unknowns.

And part of that experience is like, okay, well, if I am going to go and be in a new context, all I'm doing is adding color. And if anything, actually, and non-reflection, it's like, okay, well, my palette was actually extended too. Um, I can't paint, so it's a terrible metaphor, but, um, it's like actually, it's a great analogy because everyone, like everyone inherently understands color. And then the more color, the more palette you get, the more experience we have. And I think the world becomes a better place with more people, with bigger palette, with more color.

Like if you're able to now paint things with a wider array of colors using the metaphor, cause you can't paint, neither can I, then the, every interaction you have, every conversation you communicate in, every environment that you contribute to is going to be better now because of the experiences that you've had. Yeah. And it's, and it goes beyond, uh, another, why I've tried to coin it because I definitely wasn't a money move, but it's like experiential equity. Yeah. And so actually we need, I need to, not we, I need to put more value on that. And I think I have with this and I need to continue to put a lot of value on experience.

I don't have a mortgage. I'm not about to have a baby. You know, there's some things I can avoid, but you know, I think it even comes down to, and obviously this is, it's definitely a privilege to be able to do these kind of things, but like you're, you're at the shop and you want to buy some butter. You can buy the cheap butter or you get to dive in and dip into the fancy butter because it might change. It's going to add a colour, you know, and you're going to have the next time you have a conversation with someone about cooking or butter.

I love butter. You're just going to have more to talk about. Yeah. I think when we just, if we just always jump into, when was the last time you did something for the first time? Should be like a question that we ask ourselves every day. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot. Oh, that's just a constant invitation. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I think one of my favourite, I don't know, quotes, or I can't remember who said it, but it was if you can't, you can't give what you haven't got and you can't share what you haven't experienced. And we use it, we use it a lot in a coaching context, right?

So if you don't know what it feels like to be under a bar or to be doing repeat effort, 400 or like whatever it is exercise wise, then it's really difficult for me to, to take one of my athletes through that, through that session or through that exercise or through that whatever. And if I have experienced it and know what it feels like, then it creates a whole new level of understanding when I'm coaching someone through it, which is exactly the same with, with travel, with conversation, with cooking, with your butter. If you know what

that butter tastes like, then you can, you have another layer or another colour to be able to dish out to, to the people you're having that conversation with. And that in itself creates more enjoyment and creates another, another aspect to anything that we do. It's enriching. Yeah. It's like, that's wealth. And that's why we're here. Yeah. That's unreal. It's like a language you've got, I don't know, the more adjectives, you know, the more you can describe things, the more you can be specific. Um, and that's something with what I've been doing in coffee is being very sensory wise and people are like, oh, how do you get in trouble like that?

It's very simple and basic, and you just have to know how to talk about issues aside of that. You just, it's experience. It's time. Time is the gift in that regard because the more time you have, the more new experiences you can, you're invited to, to pursue. And then the more you can compare and the more specifically you can describe, you can put three of almost the same things, you know, in front of someone and there's a chance they might be able to describe each, you know, it's just the same. No, they'll be able to describe.

Yeah. They're different. That's enriching. If you're, if you can go through your day from conversations with your spouse to, to a mate or just with yourself, I think that's a gift. If you can articulate things specifically and I just want to, that's like a, just a positive outcome for curiosity. Definitely. Instead of just looking at something like flour. If you study flowers, you'll be able to like name that. You'll be so stoked on the, you know, the biology of that specific flower. And like you've always gone full circle with like that curiosity and that, that

search for the things that are a little, little different and to find, I guess, the extraordinary and the ordinary, like everything like life is inherently better. If we find something that we enjoy or appreciate or whatever, and then look into it and learn more, like you're never going to learn more about something. I wish I never learned that. Like it gives you the capacity to, and it takes you to your edges and then gives you the capacity to grow those edges, to be able to give more and do more and be more, which is, I guess, probably the reason, one of the reasons why you got on that plane to fly over to Burundi.

Talk me through that experience and especially the first couple of weeks. So I always find whenever you do something different, that learning curve is really steep. What was that like? Yeah. Um, it, it was, well, I, I have to start with like, I landed with some incredibly generous and beautiful people, um, who I had previously spent a few weeks with, you know, and they, one of them in particular, he's a very good friend now and I remember landing and he just, he always did so well. So I was kind of, there was an element of comfort.

Um, but as the weeks progress and say, okay, this is my new reality. Um, uh, again, felt very natural. I'm like, okay, this, this is very complex, but I'm, I'm into it here. Um, I don't know, how did I coin it? I think it was like, it was like complex beauty because I'm in an environment that's, it's, it's undeveloped. The reality is one of, of, uh, fiscal poverty and political poverty, but there's like huge seemingly social wealth. Um, the other then big thing was, um, I'm, I represent my skin and my ethnicity is a symbol in Burundi of a colonial past and of privilege of money.

And this is, this is something that was like a battle for me. That took a look, took a while, but it meant I was very uncomfortable. That's almost like, I, I didn't want to leave my, my residence. That adventure spirit is like hard to, yeah. Well that's where the fear and the, that, that kind of becomes that front of mind. Yeah. Was it, was it perceived or was it, was it genuine or both? I think it's a bit of both, like genuinely, genuinely simple. Yeah. Um, but how, okay, so then it took a few months and then I found another way that, you know, cause I do a lot of walking, um, which was actually such a gift as well.

Cause I had to be on the street. I had to walk past people. I had their four neighbors and they have legs, I have legs and they start to be like, Oh yeah, everyone's human. But how I point it was like, Oh wow, I've been so self-aware, no self-conscious of myself in space. Yeah. I was like all these spaces. It was never, there was no, no ability for me to have a deep connection to anyone or anything really, because I was so self-aware. So it was kind of this, you know, I wouldn't go as far as like non-negative ego in a way, but still like thinking about myself, I'm uncomfortable, I'm different, we're different.

Who am I to be here? There's also, I shouldn't be, this is your place. Yeah. And what am I doing here? Who am I to come and walk in your streets? Just because of what you've perceived and perception, what I was perceiving that they, how they would perceive me. And as time went by and I kept walking those streets and I started to have more conversations, started to learn a few words. And just got more comfortable to be myself and be curious in people and simultaneously reading Zen and the Art of Notice of Maintenance, which we can talk about after.

Definitely. To speak, once again, time is a gift because then I realized there's a few times I was walking around, I was walking to work or something. And I was like, oh, I just forgot that I was like in Bushumbura. And then I realized that I've moved from self-conscious of myself in space to aware of the place I'm in. So it's this totally different posture. And it took months, like three months, yes, I'm working and busy and whatnot, but all these differences, I'm different, they're different. I'm not meant to be here, blah, blah, blah. And with time, I know, I'm still meeting new people every day.

And three months before that, I would have been freaking out like, oh, they're judging me. They want me here. I shouldn't be here. How do I say anything to them? I walk on the other side of the road. But now I'm just like, okay, I am here. This is your place. I want to respect that. I'll change my body language. But also, I'm not here to exploit. No, you're there to contribute. Yeah. And I understand that I'm a symbol of the past. And I have to carry that as well. That's a reality. Yeah. But that's it, like you being here.

And yes, you have to carry that symbol. But at the same time, you can break down some of those preconceptions or misconceptions that the locals might have around what to expect from you. And when they start to connect with you on different levels and different ways, then they start to realize, okay, well, yeah, we all have, yeah, mostly, hopefully, two legs. And we all have the same features. And we all express it different ways. So how did you feel that the, how did the interactions change as your perceptions change over those three months? And obviously, towards the end, when you were probably a little bit more comfortable?

I think something that didn't change was my ability to learn French. So there's no, that should be said as well. Or French. Yeah. Well, Kirundi is like the language. Native language. A little Swahili is thrown in there as well. But then French Belgian colonialism means a lot of education and business in French. Yeah, I speak neither. So, but even what changed then was like, okay, rubbish, English and uncomfortable. And like, I'm sorry, I just, I love engaging people. And I'm in a taxi and I can't talk. I'm like, I am so rude. This is terrible. To the end, I guess this is my example.

To be able to be in a taxi, throw some really terrible Kirundi their way. They laugh. Same as in good jokes. Like white man jokes. You know, be able to offer fruit. I don't know, have a little banter. I just, I think it was. Just like, think of those two examples you gave and like what your body language would be in example one compared to what your body language would be in example two. Like, I imagine that would be chalk and cheese. Yeah. So if your body language is relaxed and then, you know, you're trying

to communicate and you're throwing out the words and you know that, you know you're not saying it exactly right and things like that, then you're probably a little bit more relaxed and you're laughing about it. And then that's going to just, it's going to disarm any misconceptions that taxi driver has. And they're going to want to engage with you and connect. And it's a completely different interaction. Example two to example one. And you know, I think it's, it's pride. Yep. So I've got pride and I'm self-conscious and I even subconsciously hold myself at some level and I'm serious.

Yeah. Naturally can be pretty serious. But it's like, I'm too serious. I'm too self-conscious in that first posture. Yeah. So I'm a bit stiff, bit uptight. Yeah. And the second example is like humbling. Yeah. I've been humbled, you know, in, and that's an ongoing journey anyway. That's actually what it is. Yeah. It's like, okay, I have to take myself less seriously. You have to be humbled, try some pride. Yeah. And, and it's not coming down to anyone else. It's coming down to reality. It's like, wow. Just being there in that place. Yeah. You spoke before about learning to be human and learning what it is to be human.

What's the last, how long have you gone for? Seven months? Seven months. What's the last seven months taught you about being human? Ah, yes. So good. It happens to be human. It's the best because that's what we might know. What I've learned for some, it's not the best. Yeah. Yeah. So I think even before I left, um, there was these, I started to have this, uh, I don't know, I was just, I remember even just being at the beach here at Cook's beach, being in the water and feeling really held, just like, ah, I'm just, I'm on this planet and I'm fully submersed and I'm just moving with the tide a bit.

Um, the current and it's like, ah, I'm just, I'm in the world. I'm fully part of it. Fully submersed right now. And the reality is that Burundi exists right now. Like, okay. It's beyond my only, my bubble. It's beyond what I'm just seeing now. And that's, I guess something I've learned about being human is our shared reality. And yes, I'm so finite. I can't read every book. I can't learn every language. Um, I certainly learned that. Um, French is terrible by the way, but excellent. Um, shout out to everyone knows French. Yeah, good on you.

Uh, but this, this idea of shared reality, how can I not be aware of my neighbor just because they're 10,000 kilometers East of me or West don't look at that. It could be more or less, but like this was it. And even to be in Burundi and in this environment with, with neighbors and brothers and sisters who, you know, uh, in very different circumstances, very different, um, even generations before us, we have very different backgrounds, but simultaneously I've got family, friends, and community 10,000 kilometers East, you know? And it's like, ah, everything's existing right now. Why do we have flags?

Why do we draw lines in the sand and call them borders? Why do we separate ourselves and find, you know, and highlight differences on the reasons? Yeah. Yeah. Where, and what, yeah. And why do we, everything's so out of balance. And I think, I think that's, yeah, there's many other things I learned that being in, but that was my, it's like we actually are all, we have a shared reality. Definitely. Um, and I think it's so okay if my focus can only be where I currently am. It has to be. Okay. You can be like

that awareness can be, you know, like we can sit here and go, okay, well yeah, I'm aware that there's 300 million people in America sitting, sitting around doing their thing. And there's, you know, however many people in Burundi and you can do that for every little part of the world. And especially for all of us that were like, we're very fortunate that we can travel the world. We live in a time and a place and an environment where we have those capacities. Like I think back to some of the trips I've done, like, you know, whether the last, I think last place, New Zealand was last little trip I did.

And there's, there's a whole, there's cities and there's a whole country where the people just doing their thing and same thing with Japan, same thing with South America, same thing with when you think about Burundi. And if my mind is in those places now, then I'm not appreciating the niche, which I think is the best part of the world, but I think I'm a little biased, but I think it's, it's almost like it's not, it needs to be a shared awareness that when you open up your mind to new experiences by traveling, you start to realize that no, we're not really that different.

And yeah, we, we tend to highlight differences, whether it's because we're afraid or, you know, it comes from the fear of differences when people don't like what's different. But when you start to understand and give yourself, it took you three months to kind of allow, allow yourself to experience those differences without that ego and without that kind of self-awareness or not self-awareness, self self-consciousness. And yeah, and it's, it's mind blowing that we do have borders and flags and things like that. And it's almost the, I find myself in the middle cause I understand why all those things already exist, but I also understand how different and potentially improve the world would be if they didn't.

Isn't that, that is interesting. Cause there is like, we want to, we do want to fly a flag. We do want to be part of something, we're not family and community. Like there's a reason not every gym is called the gym. We're all so different. Like, yes, we, we flock to people who have the same values and the same belief systems and almost that echo chamber. And it's the same as like a football clubs. Okay. Everyone has their team they support and if approached the right way, like it's great having friends that, that support different teams because then there's that ability to come and connect over a shared love for a sport, a shared hatred for other teams.

And it creates that community in different ways. It's just when it's on a, on a world scale where different languages and different traditions and different environments where it's lost because you don't have that shared interest because we forget about being human. And our rights, or certain people's rights are influenced as well. Yeah, definitely. Which how, how obvious is the, I guess the colonial rule for lack of a better word that had, has been in areas like Burundi? Was it obvious day to day? I'm like, I, I'm really aware that I was only there for, you know, in the context of.

Yeah, seven months, seven months is like relative to human existence is not long, but relative to your existence, it's a chunk of your life. Yeah. I think the consequences, I don't know any other Burundi, seven months unknown. So politically, there isn't a lot of freedom from, I'm even confused there because the government would tell you there's freedom. I think I've got like some of my good friends there, French, Belgian, you know, incredible people, super generous, living their life, doing their thing. And, but from what I understand, it wasn't a positive history at all for people of Burundi.

There was division that came out of it, flags, you know, you're from this tribe, you're from this tribe. And then, you know, part of, I think that was actually part of the lead up to then the crisis in Rwanda Burundi. We hear about Rwanda and the genocide, and that's the same ethnicities, ethnic groups. And a lot of the Burundi were shared, shared that brunt of just indifference and disconnect. You know, even coffee itself is only, exists in Burundi because the colonial crew came in and forced everyone to plant coffee 60 years ago. Yeah, which is crazy.

Yeah. And just, and I just think that maybe from what I understand, Burundi didn't have a lot to offer for exploitation purposes. And so it was kind of left in a pretty bad state. There was a time when it was thriving, even up until recently, apparently it was just like a bit of a party town. It was like, let's go to Bushumbura for the weekend. Our country's always been very undeveloped, but I think politically, I can't even say what it would be like before colonial rule, I don't know, but I think that has, it definitely didn't aid, it didn't help.

And definitely get someone with specialisation in colonialism to come and talk and answer those questions. I'm out of my depth. Yeah, well, I guess that's a, like, you never regret like diving in and learning things. Like, if anyone listening to this and like, I'm probably going to spend a little while on YouTube and Wikipedia and stuff like that, looking into this later, but it's just that you'll never regret learning more about something. So yeah, it's a whole, like, it's crazy to think that, what other, how many countries are there in the world? 206 or something? Yeah, I was going to say 197, but you're right.

I think you're right. We'll Google that after. We will Google it, I'm going to Google it right now as we talk, but there's, like, there's that many countries that each have their history that we could choose to learn and dive into and choose to not. And like, we think about our history as we're now, you know, second, third, whatever generation Australians, that we've got a very similar history with colonial rule coming over and tearing things apart the way they were. And we don't really think about that day to day as much as we should. Do

you know, I think I became more aware of that because I was living with some Spanish people and they were so confused about the Commonwealth. I'm going to have to talk about what the Commonwealth is. I was like, do you don't understand how good the Commonwealth games are? Like that's good enough reason to stay involved. But yeah, and that came back to them. It was very, there were so many moments of not being a proud Australian in conversations about how, you know, the, I guess, the European, the recent white history of Australia. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it ain't cool.

And that's the thing, like, we live in a very, very white part of the world in Moritz Peninsula and its diversity is slowly becoming more diverse, but it's not the most diverse area in the world. And I think things like you spending seven months in Burundi and adding colours to your palette. And every time someone from this area travels, it opens that whole experience to look at things a little differently. It's 241 officially recognised countries and territories from the United Nations. The US only recognises 200. Classic. 160. The best answer is that 196 countries in the world.

It's 197. Yeah. Or other 197 countries. So only 193 are members of the United Nations. So the state of Palestine and the Holy See aren't in there. There you go. There's a lot of countries around 200. How many languages? That's another little good thing because that's going to be thousands. Because countries are just, yeah, lines in the sand, but you've got a lot of differences. How many did you think? You just saw it. I just saw it, but I was thinking it was going to be a lot more. Six and a half thousand languages. I was going to say like 100,000.

Can you name more than 20? Let's not play that game, probably. I think I could. Six and a half thousand are a lot different to 20. And 20 would be, I reckon, pushing it for a lot of people. Yeah. I think that's something that's been cool to experience, how much language is a part of, it's an impact and influence on how you live. Like learning a bit more about Swahili and Arabic, like small just language banter over beers and big bruschettes. But people were like just sharing words in Swahili and Arabic. It's like they are loaded with respect or loaded with love or loaded, I don't know, they're just loaded words.

I feel like the English language is just direct and you have to pull a lot of words. Everything's meant to be very liberal. Yeah. Instead of like, they're not loaded with feeling or emotion, but you can say a word or essentially make a sound in Arabic or Swahili, which are very similar. And it is just loaded with respect and honor. It's just like, what kind of society that could bring? One where elders, you know, you have a language that you speak or words you only say to elders and they are representing something, but the word itself is loaded with respect.

It's a special word. Yeah. You wouldn't just say that to anyone. Yeah. It's like, we don't, we don't really care. We don't look at words the same way, no. You spoke about like the first couple of weeks and what it was like getting into it. What was it like wrapping up the trip the last month or so knowing that you're coming home and knowing that you were leaving that place to come back to a place where you know and love. What was that like? Once again, everything's felt very kind of natural and drawn. And I think I'm still really wanting to learn how to live in a rhythm rather than routine.

But there was a lot of rhythm in Burundi for me. And it was kind of busy and it was just, I went to Uganda with Sammy Keck and Tommy T and Andy Dell. Shout out, lads. Last week, another week before last. And that was a really cool way to kind of, being in East Africa still in a different environment. And Uganda felt very positive and filled with hope coming from Burundi as well. Yeah, obviously you build relationships with cool people and community. So part of that was sad to leave, but I guess thinking about being here, I had to start processing that at least a month, month and a half out.

Just knowing that there'll be questions about what's your plan, what are you doing? And I'm someone who naturally can get anxious about if I'm not doing something, I'm not busy. And I've had to just really be like, "Jordan, the plan is to not have a plan." Yeah, we had that chat on Saturday and it was kind of like, you'd been asked an iteration of that question three times and the 10 minutes we were sitting there. And I think it's a really interesting one because we're almost expected to know what's next. We're expected to have the structure and the things planned out.

And when we don't, it kind of throws some people. And it throws us even. That routine and regularity that comes with living in the same place, doing similar things, not necessarily doing extraordinary things and experiencing things for the first time. We spoke about before that lack of a plan is scary to some people. But I think it's, especially when you've had an experience like you've had, it's probably really important because you can follow the things that feel natural now. It's scary in a way. All the good things now. It is expensive here. This beer is expensive.

That's what I mean. I've got lots in the fridge so just come around. You are right. There's an element of why wouldn't you have a plan? Especially in a future oriented society where we have security, we have property rights, we have business rights. So this is very different to what life was like in Burundi. Day by day in Burundi. Not a lot is guaranteed. And there are incredible people, courageous people who still invest, they still create. And that's inspiring to be around. But yeah, I think an element of being back here is even like energy of people like yourself who are doers.

I've learned about myself that if I don't, I avoid taking time to sit with myself and my own ideas. And I can easily respond and just react and be like, I need to be doing something. And that will just be this, you know, that's kind of the rhythm of the routine I was in a year ago. And so it's like, okay, there's a different kind of speed. And rather than, I even picked myself up yesterday, I told someone I was unemployed right now. So I had heaps of time, which is not a lie. But I was like, John, you're not, I just labeled myself as unemployed, like I'm lacking something.

It's like, no, I'm just living right now. And that's okay. Yeah. Because it means I can have, I have, yes, I have time. Yeah. But it's an identity thing, having a job, a certain job, like even for me, like, identity, Virtus is a big part of it, like being a footballer, like, you know, being a dad soon, like that's labels that, that we put on ourselves that, yes, I'm going to be a dad. And yes, I'm part of Virtus. And yes, I'm a footballer. So they're labeled there for a reason. But we don't need them. They don't necessarily add value to our lives.

So you saying whether you're unemployed or not doesn't fucking matter. It's just, just hanging in the moment, like, like exploring. Yeah. And I realized the privilege of a safety net. Yeah. Yeah. That's also around. Yeah. Which we're all fortunate to have because of families and friends and communities that we all have here. Like, if something happened, and you'd have so many people that are there to help you and support you, but I guess the, how about instead of unemployed, you just, you're an explorer at the moment you're exploring. Yeah. Kind of positive connotations on exactly the same thing.

Yeah, just living. I'm actually a snogler. Yeah, it's good full time. We are going snorkeling today. How does that feel for you? Because you've, you, you're a busy man, you've got things going on that you, this compartmentalizing, departmentalizing all our worlds. Yeah. And kind of like putting yourself into different defined roles. Yeah. Do you naturally do that? Do you find you need to do that to cope? Or do you see an alternative narrative to approach yourself and identity with these new things? Yeah, I think it's, I try not to have that, those thoughts around like,

I am this, I am this, I'm this, like, because I am just a, just a person that's trying to do their best day to day in these environments, like in these roles, but the, what the role demands of me today is going to be different to what it demands of me next week or the week after, or especially when, when big life things start changing as they are going to over the next couple of weeks. So I think I look at it as, okay, well, most of my learnings at the moment are not necessarily technical in nature.

They're adaptive. So for me to be able to do what I want to do, which changes, you know, changes as I change there, I need to adapt and I need to figure out where my edges are, whether it be communicating with our team, whether it be, you know, my own physical capabilities, whether it be, you know, how I interact with KP and our soon to be offspring, like when that happens, like those things are just, okay, well, these are my edges at the moment. And this is something that I need to rely on the people around me to help me figure out where those edges are.

Cause that self-awareness play that we were talking about before with you, like I feel the same way around like things that I think I'm great at, which I'm sure people close to me would say, yeah, you're rubbish at that. Like communication is a big one. Like I think I'm great at communicating with certain things and certain people and they're other people's experiences that will be completely different to my experiences. So I don't know, for me, kind of to answer the question a little bit, but it's a lot about finding where my edges are in these

different areas and working on ways and kind of creating little experiments in my life to expand those edges and to, if I'm working with the edges and my capacity is growing, then I'm becoming a better version of myself. And this medium, this podcast, having these conversations has definitely been one of the things that helps with that. Because, you know, you asking me a question in a certain way allows me to think about that aspect of my life and I guess deconstruct it to go, okay, well, these are what my roles look like. Yes, it's all about edges, but maybe there's certain, everything for me is just levers to push and pull.

Do I spend more time training? Do I spend more time on Virtus? Do I spend more time sitting at Common Folk talking rubbish with the guys? Like, do I spend more time journaling? And a lot of it at the moment, especially probably the last six months, knowing that my life's going to change like dramatically has been, okay, what do I think I need at the moment? And I journal every day, but some days it's like pulling teeth and other days it's, you know, I'll write 20 pages. I'll just like, I'll write my page and then I'll just, I'll write a blog post or, you know, I'll write quotes or whatever.

Some days it just comes out, some days it doesn't. And I think it's really important to understand what we need at the time. And I'm sure you'll, now that you're back and home and you haven't even been home a week yet, so take the pressure off yourself a little bit to have that plan. You'll be able to just go with what you think you need and things all, things always work out in the end, like things always work out. So yeah, I don't know, it's an interesting one. It's kind of like seeing yourself holistically. I guess it's, you talk about defining and whatnot, it's like, you know, toolboxes are for compartmentalizing, you know, not human bodies.

And that helps with the processing, but seeing, you know, seeing those defined, those definitions as tools to enrich life rather as like identity is defined in these things. Definitely. Every experience is just adding another tool to that toolbox and eventually that toolbox is gonna get full and we get another toolbox, you know. Some people would disagree completely with that statement. I think that had like a kind of a bit of a mind-musing mind wonder recently of, I think I was literally trying to process that. Yeah. I think I went to, oh so dumb, but suddenly we just said, check yourself out, and you're like, Jordan, in the middle of the page, box around it.

Okay, line, box, leaves here. What am I doing? This is gross. This happened like two months ago. And then I was like, no, I'm not a box. And I'm like, okay. And then I was like, timeline. No, that's even more than that. Like, what am I doing? I'm like, ah, I'm a circle. I'm a circle. And it's like, everything's just encompassing me. Like, this is just me. Everything's in it. And I was like, well, no, that's still a really defined thing. I'm like, I have no idea who I am, but I'm so okay. Like, and I know that there are things to me that I'm actually really confident about.

It's not okay. Maybe it's not, maybe it's like a fuzzy circle. It's got some different edges. It's a bit more edgy and it's like, no, it's actually more than that. It's more three-dimensional and it's moving. Like, why am I trying to define it? And it's like the shape I ended up with, maybe, I don't know what atoms look like or, but it made me think of the sun. You know, it's got a core. We have a core. There's some things that we build on, some truths and some like just literal truths, like just human being and what a genius we are and those kind of things.

But then it's like, we have experiences from our birth and like, you think of the sun to have the flares. And so it's all gassy and it's all moving. And there's a chance that, yeah, it's super fluid. And if I'm going to like, you know, you're going to start a business at some age. You've already got all these other flares of things you've done, but it's like, actually now I'm choosing this way. And all those other things exist. You haven't lost them. You didn't leave them on the timeline 20 years ago. No, they're part of you.

You carry them today, but now there's a new flare that's going and it might just keep on growing. It might stop. I love that analogy. You might then move to another thing. Actually, I'm going to transfer my energy to that. And you can have things simultaneously moving. You're going to be a dad. You're going to, you know, all these, it's not like, the other things are still new box of Lachlan. Yeah. And I think what the invitation like in my processing of that was, if I'm to find and I've got hard edges, how the hell do I connect with another person?

Yeah. If they've got to find hard edges, like there's not, you get, you're never going to fully interact. There needs to be that receptor and that. I drew it in a drawing. Let me, I should just show you, this makes it, that wasn't my processing. I love that. I love that diary too. That's very cool. Apologies for everyone that's not watching the, uh, the visual version of this, which doesn't exist yet. This is what I'm trying to explain. Yeah, good. That like, rather than literally as a process, but the moment we have all these little

flares, these undefined things, they can connect with your, you know, I have a moment of connection with you because like we can, and there's no hard areas. It's unknown what we're talking about. It's infinite. Yeah. And I think that idea of treating ourselves as holistic things that everything matters, everything compliments, um, we transcend, we transcend our previous capabilities and capacities and that person we were like, but we also include that person. So as, as we develop, whether it like from infant to toddler to like, we don't cease, we cease to be a toddler, but we've still, that toddler is still within us.

And it's the same thing as we, we grow within whatever we're doing now as a, as a fully grown adults, which doesn't really exist because we're always growing different ways. If we can understand that every time we transcend our current capacities, we include what we were, uh, I've got a pile of babushka dolls, you know, the, um, Russian nesting dolls on my desk, which is like a great analogy for a little, little one. Like you just, if you put them all together, it's the bigger one. You just keep getting bigger, a bigger babushka doll to put yourself in.

If we look at it that way, that we're always going to be growing and include and growing, transcending and including then everything we do. And that's why like, I am lucky enough to talk to a lot of people that are going through transitions and changes in their life, whether it be quitting their job and going to an East African country, or whether it be like a student who's trying to figure out what their next step is after that, or whether it be something changing jobs. Everything we do is, teaches us usable skills to do the next thing.

So it doesn't really matter what we choose to do. It matters that we choose something, dive into it, put, put everything into it. And then the next thing will come and the next thing will come. And each one of those makes you a better person at the next thing you do. Like if you decide to learn French over the next 12 months, then that's going to improve your ability to learn different things. It's going to improve your ability to communicate. It's going to change everything, even if you don't actually speak French to anyone. So yeah,

that's the, I think that's the cool part about being human is that there's so many different ways to improve and to grow and to learn more. You know, that idea of a holistic thing, it's like, okay, I don't, I don't have to like change my timeline. It's actually no, that relationship has to end or I need to quit that job. I need to move there or I need to start doing that. You know, like we don't have to, I think it's also permission to like, to see yourself, respect yourself and go, you know, okay, I can, I have permission now.

That's a part of me. Yes. I have to carry that. Some of it's painful. I have, and I can't suppress it. I have to do it. It's part of me, but let me now push life. Yeah. Try that thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Now one last question for you. What are you most excited for? Oh, I mean, getting in the water with Sarvo is going to be pretty good. Yeah, it is. Like short-term excitement. I'm genuinely excited about today and tomorrow. Good. And definitely in the sense of, I just really hope that my life is a life giving lifestyle and serves a life giving legacy.

And that's a challenge. I have to check in with myself a lot if that's going to happen, but that to me just means that tomorrow I'm going to have, and today I'm going to have to prioritize people and place. And I don't know, that's an awesome invitation. Good. So that's a bit broad and, and it's meant to be out there. It's not so literal, but it's like, no, actually I'm really excited about today. I'm really excited about tomorrow because there's a lot of wealth in my life and there's, and there's more color to see and there's there's more to experience and there's more cheese and butter to eat and buy.

What a way to finish. Mate, thank you for coming on. Thank you for the chat. Thank you for giving your experiential wealth to everyone that listens. Good for us. Good for you. Thanks brother. Bye.