Automatically transcribed, so expect the odd wrong name or word.
- Hey team, welcome to another week of the Virtus Performance Podcast. I wanna give you all a big thank you for listening, for tuning in, for sharing, subscribing, doing all that kind of stuff. It's awesome to be able to have a community of like-minded people to share these conversations with. Today's conversation is with James Baldwin. Now, James is a big part of the reason that Drops of Juniper, our gin company, is a thing. He's our managing director and our fairy gin mother. He is someone who I look up to immensely as a fellow business owner, but just as a legendary human.
We spoke about gin and why Drops of Juniper became a thing and how it became a thing. We talked about James' journey through the army into business and all the lessons and the experiences that he's had along the way to allow him to become the person that he is. We talked about business a lot, about the challenges, about the ways of moving forward and I guess the overwhelming theme of this podcast was growth, which I know a lot of you guys are chasing every day. So, without further ado, here's James. (upbeat music) My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day.
I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. (upbeat music) - James. - Lachie. - Welcome to the podcast. - Thank you. - What a time to be alive. I've been trying to make this happen for way too long. And you're finally here. - You're not wrong. In November, it's almost the end of the year and we've been talking about it since about January. So, I thought it's probably a good time to jump in as we head rapidly towards Christmas and then into bloody 2020.
- Yeah, 2020, the year of Drops of Juniper. - Yeah, we thought 2019 was gonna be the year of Drops of Juniper, didn't we? - These things take time. - That's true. For those of you who don't know, I'm one of the owners of Drops of Juniper alongside Lachie and four other idiots who all thought it was a good idea to put together a gin brand after a lot of different conversations and a lot of drinking sessions and a lot of all that sort of other stuff. And I suppose we sort of decided to hit the ground sprinting, not even running.
And we did it just as a time where the market sort of stagnated. So, it's been a very interesting, about 10, 11 months worth of that side of life. - It's pretty crazy how much we fit into that 11 months. - Yeah, you're not wrong. - Not much has actually happened. - You're not wrong. So, it was around July last year, so 2018, where we really pushed for this to be a thing. And I tried to group you guys up to make a gin. And that was interesting at best. We went through so many different distilleries trying to find somebody to help us make this gin.
But I tell you what, I don't regret the amount of time that it took, because finding Alchemy, the boys up in Healesville. - Shadows and Lads. - Absolutely. Phenomenal guys, but just understood what we wanted right from the beginning. And to be honest, I'm not really sure we knew what we wanted right from the beginning, but they sort of told us in a lot of ways, which is great. But it's been an interesting 11 months. And it's been interesting launching what is a fast-moving consumer good. - Yeah. - Stepping in a world where you're selling a whole experience and a service and a community.
And in my other life, I sell alcohol, but it's not my brand, it's other people's brands. And so I'm focused on the customer, not necessarily the actual brand itself. So to flip all that around and to be able to sell our own thing is awesome and stressful and difficult and easy all at the same time. - What made you wanna get all of us together to make this actually happen? - It's, I don't really know what it was gonna be, if I'm honest. - You're like the glue. - Well, I try to be the glue. Sometimes I need to be more loctite than clag in terms of just being able to hold you guys together and hold it.
- The fairy gym. - Yes, the fairy gym mother is the website says. Look, I think what I desperately wanted was something of my own to sell, but not only just something of my own to sell, 'cause it could have been anything. I could have imported, I don't know, umbrellas from China and put my name on it and sold them, but it wouldn't have been fixing a problem. So I guess the big thing coming out of the wholesale trade and alcohol and before that working at Celladors on the peninsula and selling other people's wines and stories was that stories make the biggest difference when it comes to selling anything.
And a clear story with a clear message and a clear ending is obviously a recipe for success. But I never really found that I had that through other people's stuff or even my own business, because again, I'm selling a product, but I'm also selling a service. It's a bit muddy, the water's up. My business is very unique in that way. And I love it, don't get me wrong, and it's difficult, which I enjoy, but it's interesting. So I suppose the clarity of Drops of Juniper was it was a product, but it was also a story and a community that we were selling as well.
So it's sort of like a little bit of an element of vertice in terms of that community building and wanting people to be part of this journey of six guys who get together to drink gin that were sick of paying too much money for crap gin, basically. The whole Jeremy Clarkson question of how hard can it be? And the answer is very hard and very time-consuming and very expensive. - It all takes longer and is harder and costs more than you expect. - Absolutely, and you have to take risks, and risks are really hard to do.
And I think there's a big part of me that is risk-aware, not risk-adverse. That becomes part of my army training. It stems from wanting to bring you guys in for the journey as well, because I was the outsider. It wasn't the other way around. It's not like we sort of went out to the market and tried to get a couple of investors, like some other businesses we know. It was just, all right, well, I sort of entered into the common folk crew through knowing Sam Keck through church and a few other areas. And then Tommy started roasting coffee for me, and it just started, it kind of, I think Bestie started working for me, this random mix of people.
And we're a very unlikely group of people. And I think that's the key for me, is that none of us are the same. None of our strengths or weaknesses are the same. We all share a different view of what we want drops of ginna to be. And I love that, because it doesn't mean that we get stuck in the mud. It doesn't mean that we stagnate to the point where we become irrelevant. - We're never gonna be able to pigeonhole ourselves into the one thing, 'cause we're always gonna be challenging the-- - I agree. - The idea.
- Yeah, and I think that's what business is about. And the one great thing out of doing drops and spending over a year trying to figure it out is that the lessons that I've learned in that have helped me in other areas of my life. - Yeah. - And vice versa. The other areas of my life that keep challenging me will help me bring into drops in the future what I've learned. And being, in inverted commas, the managing director of a group of six of us where effectively there's not much to direct at the moment. - Not currently, we'll get there.
- But we're getting there and pulling investors on board and trying to find a space and working with council to try and get them on board. It's all, I just feel like there's this massive amount of energy just waiting to fall off the cliff. And when it does, it's gonna go very quickly. And so I love the product, I love it. I'm looking at a bottle now and I think it's delicious. It says what it is on the bottle. It's what you see is what you get. And I'm wearing a Juna Palooza T-shirt. We were there a couple of weekends ago.
60 exhibitors, about three and a half thousand people through on the weekend. And the feedback we got was phenomenal. Best gin here, love the name, all of that sort of stuff. And so I think after this really hard season for us, that was the kicker. And Heath and Tommy will say the same thing. I think the three of us and the three of us are really the ones who are working in it at the moment, just fell off a little bit. Winter was really hard for us. Alcohol sales was really hard. And I'm aware that I'm talking on a podcast, it's about more performance and from a point of view of Virtus.
- I think it's a really cool link we can draw because this hard season, as you said, it's setting us up for the next thing. And it's almost, I kind of appreciate this period because it's almost going slower than we'd like it to, but at the same time, you're right about the energy. It's getting ready to ramp up into something. - Yeah, and we made a whole batch of gin that we didn't need to. Let's be honest. - With the expectation or the hope that it would be. - Yeah, we had one of the major chains potentially gonna pick it up.
They made all the right noises. And when it came to it, it just fizzled. And that was really, it was disappointing, but the lesson was huge. It turned out that this batch is better than the first batch. And we're down to the very last couple of cases of batch one. So we had to do it at some point. Would I have liked to have done it later? Yes, but it's given it time to settle. And again, it's an experience. - We put ourselves in the conversation, I think. Doing that, I guess, showed that we could do it if we needed to.
- Yeah. - And it allowed us that, we obviously wanna grow rapidly, ideally. - Yeah. - But it gives us the idea that, okay, it's not all gonna work out the way we want it. 'Cause it almost went too well for a six month period. - Yeah, it did, you're right. And I think it's better this way around. - Yeah. - Because I think the lessons that we've learned in the last six months with a whole batch sitting there just waiting to do something has been more important than if we had just succeeded straight away and been picked up and gone down the process of doing a pallet of gin a week, which I'd love to do.
I think everyone would. And the big boys are certainly doing that. But yeah, it allows us to take a step back and try and figure out what it is that we're actually trying to do here. And again, it comes back to that community element. We were talking about guiding principles and trying to figure out what our mission was in this segment of the market. And really it comes down to, we drunk so much gin that was so expensive and just not worth the money that we wanted to be able to provide a product to people
who want to drink good gin, don't want to spend an absolute fortune, but want to be part of something not bigger than themselves, but special. - Yeah. - And belong to a brand that they can identify with and are proud to be drinking. - Well, it's so much about connection and just we like back from the early days when I jumped on board with the boys having gym Mondays, it was just around talking shit over a drink that I'd never had before when I first jumped on and being able to find that connection and that love for a product that I had no idea about, I want other people to experience that.
- Yeah. - I want to be able to share that with people, so many people and you would have the same thing, like I don't drink gin. - Yep. - And Tommy's always said, we haven't had the right gin yet. - He's so true. - And we've almost accidentally, intentionally but accidentally created that gin. - Yep. I think it's, as you say, especially at Juniper loser, but in every other tasting situation that we do and I do tastings at bottle shops as Heath does as well and events is people were just surprised. They're surprised how
smooth it is, they're surprised by the flavor profile, but I just think it goes back to, this is a quality product that is no nonsense. It's not stupidly expensive. I mean, there are bottles of Hendrix, honestly, and Hendrix is not a bad gin, but it's over commercialized, knowing you're as good. Sorry, I'm just gonna say that, but it's true. That sell for $5 a bottle more. I'm in bottle shops down, Western port side of the peninsula and they don't do craft gin, but they'll have bottles of Hendrix for 80 bucks itself. So, I think it's
an understanding of trying to change people's attitudes and as I was saying before the podcast, it's trying to break down people's barriers of consideration and allow them to step in with the full knowledge that what they buy is gonna be something that is, meets or exceeds their expectations. And I think that's trying to do that in every element of life and in businesses as well. And for me and four paws, it's the same and you and Veritas, it's the same and working, even if you work for somebody else, it's the same and it's trying to belong to that story that you wanna get excited about.
- Yeah, I think it's just about collaboration and contribution. If we can find that thing, it doesn't matter if you're the guy running the show or if you're someone working in it, if you can take the part of you and provide it to the people around you, then you're gonna make the world a better place. - Totally, yeah. And as I said, alcohol is one of those things where it's a little bit on the iffy side in terms of being able to donate to charity, for example, because you have to be careful that you're not donating to someone that has had a bad experience.
And it is what it is. That's just part of it. But what our big thing is, is that we're not in it to make money. If I wanted to make money, I wouldn't be doing it. (all laughing) It takes a lot. But it's trying to give back to the community as best as we can as well. And we will certainly do that when we open up a venue. - I know you're gonna hate this question. And it's, I guess, for everyone listening, where does Drop set this time next year? - I don't hate that question at all.
I think that the answer has changed a lot in the last two months. The answer for right now is, we'll have a distillery in Mornington. We'll have our own still set up. We'll have a German still made for us. It's gonna be called Bev. (all laughing) 'Cause Bev at Common Folk knows. We're gonna have a holding tank, a really tall one called Dave. Just paint the top of it red. No, he, sorry, that's where we need to be. I think we're looking for this venue. I live in Mornington and the one thing that I know is that the places that I go out in, I'm not comfortable in.
And I don't mean that, you know, I sell to a lot of these places, but I always feel like I'm working when I go to these places. What I love to do is watch, well, it was when I watched someone like Sam Keck walk into Common Folk. That's his space, but he doesn't act like he owns it. He's just part of the community there. And that's why you enjoy going there. That's why I enjoy going there. - It's transcended him. - Yeah. Yeah. - He can just be a part of it. Yes, he's an important part of it.
- Yeah, of course. - It wouldn't be what it is without him. But at the same time, if Sam and Keck fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, Common Folk would still be Common Folk. - And I think that's important for both you and I to try and emulate that in our own businesses. But it's different in that environment and hospitality situation when you have chiefs of departments and people working underneath. It's easier to put in processes and systems that ensure that if you do fall off the edge of the earth, it's still gonna work.
But yeah, so to answer your question, we're gonna have a distillery, have a cellar door at least. That's the next 12 months. I'd love to do that in the next six. We are working exceptionally hard to try and find that factory. - Yeah, I guess that's the thing. We're not gonna rush it for the sake of rushing it. - No, we had that opportunity and we didn't do it. So I know I'm glad of that. I think that what we end up doing will be something that won't be everyone's cup of tea, but it's gonna give us a base to work from.
And to be able to make our own product rather than contract distilling up in Healesville, that's gonna be the real winner for me. So I'm not a big KPI person. I don't think they necessarily work as well as people would want them to. What I am though is someone who wants people to be part of a bigger mission and want to be part of a story. And I know that the story is a lot easier sold when it's coming from us directly and Heath and Tommy and me and you and Kek and Bestie, if we all want to get into to make the bloody stuff, that's where the magic is.
And it's gonna take some time and it's gonna take some money, but we'll get there. Yeah, that's true. We'll get there. - How'd you get to this point being Gin Baron? - Ooh, thank you for the title of Baron. That's nice. - You're welcome. - I think it's, well, my life has been a very interesting one. As I mentioned, Army before I joined Army to be a General Service Officer in 2009. And I went through the Defence Force Academy, which was great, which is where I met my now wife. She was three years older than me at the time.
Shout out to Claire. Three years older than me, which meant she outranked me and she still does, so that's cool. - I think that'll never change. - No, no, correct, never change. But I went through a rapid, it took me from where I was, which was a 19-year-old that took a year off between school and doing this and this massive change in my mentality through initial training, through basically going from being a kid on the street to someone who could start to effectively lead people in a battle space and kill the enemy or achieve an objective.
And that massive change in me was interesting 'cause I used to go back, I used to live in Sydney, so I used to drive up to Sydney and I'd see my friends, but every sort of three-month period, every time I saw them, I would just find that the gap was growing and growing and growing. So sort of since then, I've just been, I always want more. If you know the Enneagram level, I'm Enneagram eight, which means I'm challenging, I want to get out there and do more. I'm sort of happy to skip a couple of steps if it gets me to the end stages, which sometimes is big hands, big maps is the military term, rather than more tactical.
But that whole growing was really important to where I am now. Now, I was unfortunately medically discharged, I buggered my ankle in Puckapunyal in exercise and at the time shattered me. I was training to go to Afghanistan and that's what everyone was doing. It sort of, after four years was interesting to take a step out from very intense space with wanting to do that to not. And I stepped out of that space and I ended up, somehow I graduated out with a Bachelor of Arts in History and Politics, which is useless really in the real world, loved it.
And I don't think doing a Bachelor of Arts is easy by any stretch, but it was useless. But I ended up working for Defence was recruiting and marketing, I ended up contracting back to Defence all through people that I knew. And that whole relationship element was really highlighted to me then in that networking, which hasn't stopped now, as you know. So that sort of built all of these other skills in this different direction. So I suddenly had leadership and it's not solid leadership. I think a lot of defence people get upset, get out rather than saying, I know everything about leadership.
Well, it's great. You can lead 30 people into a battle space and kill the enemy in his face. But can you understand people's wants? Can you clarify what you're doing well? And can you actually educate your people in what you're trying to do? Sometimes the answer is yes, often the answer is no. And so I sort of had enough of that to give me a boost and coming into contractor land in Canberra, where there are public servants and defence personnel and everything. Canberra is a very interesting place to work, especially as a civilian. So to then take that experience after a couple of years in marketing and spending a lot of money on different campaigns, I then moved down here.
I followed Claire. She was in the Middle East at the time when she and I reconnected and we were talking a lot on Skype and all that sort of stuff. She came back to Sydney and posted in Melbourne and I followed her. I was living in Brisbane, so I'd left Canberra, moved to Brisbane and then come down here. And I was doing a job in Brisbane where I was travelling a lot up and back, I mean. So I have a house in Redhill here with Claire and an apartment in Newstead and Brizzy, and I'd be flying two, three times a week up and down.
And driving from Redhill to the airport is a long distance. In fact, it almost takes the same amount of time that it does to bloody fly. And so that wasn't achievable for the rest of my life. So I gave that up and decided to be down here. And I suppose where this is going to is that the reason why alcohol specifically is what I do now is because I had to take a step back and say, well, I've done this before where my whole career option has been taken away from me. Except this time I made the decision to call it, what do I do next?
And you sort of look around and try and figure it out. Wine is, I was living in Redhill, so up on the hill, surrounded by vineyards, that's what was around. So I was lucky enough to get to know my neighbour. She volunteered me for a position at a winery in Isilador and it just sort of kept sort of going out of that. That ended up with me meeting this guy who owned a wine distribution business who was looking to retire. We somehow managed to get some funds together and buy that. And, you know, three and a half years later, that's where we're at now.
And I think that alcohol element and that desire for more and change all the way back from 2009 to now has meant that the baron in me for gin specifically, but also wanting something for my own to sort of hang my hat on, has eventuated to where we are now. It won't ever be enough for me, mind you. I think, you know, I'll do this and do it to the best of my ability and then hand it over to somebody. As I will forepause, as I've done with many things in the past. So it's sort of, this is it for now.
And now is the next five years, at least is what I can see in the future. But eventually it'll be something else. You know, I love Formula One, I do a Formula One podcast. - Shout out. - That's, you know, Oz F1, if you're interested in listening to three guys talk nonsense about cars going around a track, Oz F1. But that's where I see myself. That's my real passion and love. And you know, given the opportunity, I travel with the circuit around the world to try and do that, but one step at a time. - So is that the, if money was no option, what would you do with your days?
That would be it, follow everyone around? - I record a lot of big band music, 'cause I'm a big band singer, and report on Formula One. That would be my ideal situation. And the music thing would really sort of tie in well, and the travels would tie in well, because you know, there's so many, there's 23 races in the calendar, and they're all over the place. And so being able to travel and seeing new music and meet new people and eat in different places would be phenomenal for me. Hopefully that is achievable. Obviously I'd love
for somebody else to pay me to do that, but I think in the short term, it's just getting funds together to be able to pay for my own way around. And it's a very unique offering. Formula One is not big in this country, but compared to other places in the world, and the majority of our listeners are from Australia, which is great, but we have people from Germany in the US, Canada and England listening, which is great as well. - That's a cool start, if you can start to create a little bit of excitement around F1 in Australia.
- And that was the whole point. - If you tap into the bigger markets, it's, hopefully it just snowballs. - That was the whole point. You know, it was more an educational piece that wasn't the traditional Fox Sports V8 supercars, which is, assume you know everything. We try and explain everything as we go along and just have a bit of fun with it, which is the same with Gin, which is the same with how you and I catch up. It's, you know, the important thing for me is that being excellent in everything that you're doing, especially, you know, the guiding principles for 4 Paws are community, communication and excellence.
They're my three. - Awesome. - And so everything has to go through that filter before we do everything. And that's easier said than done, you know, but I think starting with that, and I try and sort of apply that to drops and to OZF1 as well is, so long as that is the starting point, I think only good things can come from it. - Yeah, well, they're the standards or the ideals that you hold yourself to. And you're just trying to get as close to those as you can with everything. - Yeah, but it's also about trying to exhibit those to other people and then watching and growing them.
You know, I'd love to the point to, or to get to a point rather where I can grow somebody in either 4 Paws or drops to that is better than me, and that I can promote and encourage and then stand aside and let them do it. And I think that's one of the biggest errors in leadership at the moment, especially people who own businesses is that they feel like they have to have control and they know everything, therefore they must have every element of control. But, you know, I want to grow and to step aside and let other people do it.
- You've always had a lot of experience both in the leadership and the business field. Why do you think that is? Why do you think people struggle to hand over chunks of the thing that they've created? - Yeah, I think people just inherently distrust. I don't think that, and I also think, especially when it comes to business and growing business and, you know, 4 Paws is a distribution company where you represent a stack of different Mornington Peninsula wines and a few other bits and pieces, which is cool. Back in the first 12 months of that job, it was me, that was it.
It was a van, a little van as well, a little Mercedes Vito. And I would be doing two or three trips a day back and forth to the warehouse in Somerville, down to places like Bologare or whatever during the summer months. And I worked seven days a week and it sucked, honestly. It really affected my relationship with my then fiance. It really affected my friendships with other people. You know, I didn't feel like I was getting anywhere. And so when the opportunity came to put on one of the guys who I was working with, he was a customer, and he's far more experienced than I am in this.
You know, he's been in the industry for decades. It was hard, and it was hard because I knew what I wanted, that I had created a brand around me personally, and I didn't know how to give that up. Not only that, I didn't trust that he would represent what I had made Four Paws into. And I think that was one of my first mistakes, was doing everything myself or tying myself to the brand. So if I would walk into a shop, Four Paws was James, it wasn't Four Paws itself. And Four Paws, by the way, is pouring a glass of wine.
Like wine, beer, cider, and spirits is the four different things that we pour, not a dog food company. Although I wish I was the amount of animals that I have. So I think often it's because people haven't had that experience and then want to learn from it. So because I've done so many different things, you know, I've just turned 30, but I've had stacks of different career paths, haven't had that experience in wanting to better themselves or give themselves a bit of a break, they won't let go. But even from just a value point, if you, the most important thing in your business, you're devaluing the business if you ever want to sell it.
I mean, that's just basic, basic business tips, I guess. But it's interesting to watch other people. And we've had cafes and restaurants fail, going to liquidation, owing us money. And often the situation's very similar, is that somebody has complete control, they refuse to let anybody else in, and they sort of put themselves into a corner and then fight their way until the inevitable. Which is sad, it's tough, it's sad. - How did you develop that, I guess, trust and willingness with your staff to, from both of us? - Yeah, I think it was just the right, the right person at the right time.
You know, Rory is an incredible person. He has done a lot in his life. And, you know, I knew that he knew what I wanted to do with the business. I think the biggest thing was that, you know, I didn't trust our generation, because often we are very good, and I've done it, we're very good at taking everything we can from a company, and then skipping over to the next one if they offer us $5 a year more. It's more about me, and it's more about money, rather than the bigger picture in the story. So
having someone who is older was easier to let into the family, so to speak, because I kind of knew that I'd at least have him for, you know, five to 10 years. And that, you know, that's a real thing that we have to think about. You know, if I think about a turnover in hospitality venues, or even with your business in terms of staff, you think back on the last two, three, or a few, four years now. - Even when you think it's going to be around forever, like, and it's, I find it really interesting, because I could never give it up.
Like, it's just the way things are at the moment, I could never give it up. But as soon as, when you're not tied to it, like you are as an owner, when the grass is greener, you tend to want to jump ship. - Yep. - The grass is, the way I look at the grass is greener where you water it. - Yeah. - And if you want to create something that you can be proud of, that you can be a part of, most people would stick around. - Yeah, I think that's really good. And I think that's really good advice for everything, but specifically business.
And, you know, again, it comes back to story. It's people who have mission statements, for example, and I'm just reworking my mission statement now, because I feel like every six months I need to take a step back and look at what we're doing and relook at it again. Is, you know, they'll use a whole bunch of accountant or legal jargon in there and, you know, go around to venues and I say, well, what's your mission statement? To just, you know, baristas or whoever, an administrative person, no one has any idea. No one knows why they're there apart from getting money to then go out on the weekend or go to the snow like that.
It seems to be the, well, I'm only here so I can get paid. So I don't have any buy-in and, you know, they're not interested in watering the grass one way or the other. - Yeah. - So long as the grass pays them. - They don't have to see them again. - No. - And, but is that, they're doing or do you think that's the, effectively the owner's doing? - No, it's totally the owner's doing. And I think, you know, blaming your staff or blaming your people or anyone around you for something that you have control over is weak.
I think it's, it shows immaturity and an inability to be able to check yourself. You know, we used to coming out or going through training in army, we'd always be told by, you know, the young lieutenants who jumped straight out of Royal Minister College Duntroon and into a platoon and try and change everything because they thought they were king of the world and knew everything, let alone that the Sergeant who was there to IC who'd been in for, you know, 20, 30 years going, here we go again. And that was a big warning is, you know, you might feel like, you know, everything but you don't.
And you need to be able to absorb as much information from every single aspect as possible. And if you have a plan and it doesn't work, that's okay. So long as you're able to take a step back, re-look at the plan and change. We've done that with drops. - Yeah, we can't work all the time. We'd be in one of the big chains if things had gone really well. - Totally, but that would have affected a whole bunch of stuff as well. And you know, on reflection, it's actually better that we're not. And, you know,
as silly as it sounds and as, you know, the bank account probably would like it the other way, but it will grow in that positive way. So yes, I think as a leader, you need to be able to manage people's expectations of yourself before anything else. Because if they see you losing the plot or if they see you not bought into your own business or stressed, and we're all guilty of that. I mean, I'm guilty of that the last couple of weeks. You know, I've been in a really tough spot. Winter sucks for us. You know, we had bills owing and people not paying us and all that sort of other stuff.
You know, I've got a big faith perspective and background on it. And I, you know, pray about it and lean into God about it, but that's easier said than done. And regardless of your faith position or not, it's, you know, it doesn't bother me, but that's how I try and filter everything else on the other side. Because it just, you know, even if you meditate or you wanna go for a walk or whatever it is for you, just having those quiet moments and for me having a conversation with God is important. But it's that I will, your ability rather to kick yourself back into gear and pull yourself out of the right and go, okay, here we go again.
And honestly, it happens to me every 12 months or so with something that happens. And I've just gone through my annual rut. But at least I acknowledge it. And at least I am able to surround myself with good people, good friends. I, you know, I sit and I listen to podcasts or I read or I try and get myself out of it and give myself that reminder of, you know, how is your attitude right now impacting your business, impacting your customers and impacting yourself? - Yeah, well, that's just an ownership play. That's just you putting yourself forward to take ownership of the result.
- Yeah. - I think that's one of the definitions I really like about leadership. It's being responsible for the result that's outside of your control. - Yeah. - 'Cause you do everything you can do and you let the other things happen. - Yeah, and you know, the army adage is, you know, all plans are great until first contact with the enemy. - Yeah. - You know, we, as an army, obviously you train and you write your mission, you write your plan. And the acronym is SMEAC. So S-M-E-A-C, you've got situation, mission, execution, admin and logistics, and command and SIGs.
And the execution element of it is the biggest part because part of that subheading is actions on anything. - Yeah. - So, you know, maybe the plan is, or the mission is to capture the hill over there and kill the enemy and clear. Or capture and clear are two different objectives, but you might, that might be the thing. Now, actions on might be actions on a tank appearing, actions on, you know, a hailstorm or a bushfire or a clown walking through the middle. Like you just, the random things that have to come towards you that you have to be prepared to change direction very quickly, but be able to take your team, group them up and take them with you.
Because if you're looking behind you and they're still going in the opposite direction and you failed, and I think it's important to try and do that in daily life. But, you know, it's not always applicable, but often it is. And, but again, that comes with everything. You know, if you're sitting here listening to this and you hate your job at the moment, well, that's cool. And yes, you can go and get another one, but you might hate that job again. So I guess, you know, you asked the question, well, is it about leaders who have to really create that good environment?
Well, yes, it is about the leaders creating a good environment, but a big part of leadership is followership. And I think people who just sit there and complain and don't try, and they might be different. If you tried, I get that, and that's cool, and maybe you should find somewhere else to work. But if you haven't tried, if you haven't gone in with the lens of wanting to do better for your boss or whoever owns the company or whoever runs the company, then maybe try that. Maybe try sitting down with them and having a conversation about, well, what is it that you want me to do?
Why are we here? - Yeah, why are we actually here? - You know? - Love a quote, the biggest problem with communication is the assumption that it happened in the first place. It's 'cause we all, like, we play these things over in our head, the things that aren't working. We go around and around and around in circles, and we look at them from one lens, and then we don't actually have the conversation with the person that we're frustrated with or upset with or annoyed at. So we miss the whole boat, and nothing actually changes. - I'm reading the, Simon Sinek's new book, "The Infinite Game."
And just, like, really simply, there's two games, one with a clear rules, clear start, clear ending, and then there's one with no ending. So, like, if we look at the gym environment, a session is a finite game. We look at health and wellbeing, that's an infinite game, until we cock it, I guess. But the way he positions his book is that's how you look at business, is that you're there, you know, we're not there to sell to a big chain our second run and sell out and have all these growth problems. We're here to be here for a long time.
- Yep. - And I think that's, like, one of the things that I'm getting from you is that you're not here to be a flash in the pan, to make a difference really quickly, to make a lot of money and get out. It's all, it's a process. - Money is, has been a driving factor for me for a long time, up until about two years ago. - What changed? - Just the realization of what it was doing, what it was doing to my mental state, what it was doing to my relationships and the fact that I was sacrificing relationships with customers and building networks to try and chase big accounts and bigger money.
- Yeah. - What's come out as a result is more customers and, you know, better paying customers, not always more money, but better paying customers because of a change in attitude. - Yeah. - You know, I've been told this time and time again, and everyone that I talk to and meet, you know, regardless of how much money they have, I always say, well, you know, how much more do you want? And they just always say, look around a little bit more, just a bit more, you know, I just want more so I can pay out, you know, the debt that I've got to this person.
But the problem is, we're never able to do that. So I think it's, I think it's really important to acknowledge money, it's important, and, you know, it does make the world go round, but how we view it and how we idolize it needs to be changed, at least. And that's what that was for me. - Yeah. - But I just wanna go back to the point about, you know, thinking about things and dwelling on it. You know, I've got this at work and Rory will know this and sort of how does it, if I have to think of something longer than five minutes, then it's a problem.
And now it might be a supplier. - Yeah. - And this has happened recently where, you know, we have issues with them or they don't trust us or something else is going on and I say, well, if I have to think about it for longer than five minutes, as in, I can't come up with a solution, generally it's a cut it away. And that might sound ridiculous. And of course, there's more conversation that goes into it. But from a very simple level, you know, if I'm thinking or if I'm dwelling about, you know, I've chased
a customer for money and they're really annoyed, this is a life example, by the way, they're really annoyed with me because I've chased them for money, even though they've owed this money to me for 60 days. What do I then do from that? Do I apologize to them for being forceful? Do I remind them that I'm not a bank? Do, you know, there's so many different things. And the answer is it's all of those things and none of them at the same time, because they're so unique depending on the character or the person behind the computer on the other end of the phone or on the other side of the desk.
So you have to remain flexible with how you deal with these issues. But again, if it's longer than five minutes, then I, you know, we have a meeting, bring the team together and we go, right, how do I deal with this? And that's the other thing is it's cool to bring in information and listen to other people and build a picture and a story of the situation from as many different angles as you can. But ultimately as a leader, you have to make a decision because there is nothing worse to me than indecision. If you
dwell and you sit, I'd rather make a decision with my gut and be the wrong one and go back and fix it, and assess it and change it and fix things as it's running. - Yeah, yep, and I think that's really important. You know, indecision is just not okay as far as I'm concerned. It's just one of those army hang-ups probably, but, you know, it makes a big difference, I think. - Yeah, I definitely, definitely agree. I've learned so much more from the fuck-ups from the decisions I've made than from the sitting on my hands. - You have to.
- Not allowing things to happen. - And you know, the current position that I'm in business-wise financially, we're not great, you know, and it's winter and everything else, and that doesn't help people drinking, but it's as a result of what I did two years ago, and I'm still paying for that two years ago. And I get really frustrated with myself sometimes about that but it's, you're right, it's more important about what the future holds, 'cause it means that the same decisions that I made two years ago for 4 Paws, I'm not gonna make for drops.
Or if I see friends of mine going down that path in their own businesses, I will try and have a conversation with them about the error that I made that has let them down. That same decision for them might work. - Yeah, yeah, that's it. - But it's trying to build a community of good solid people and business people who support each other through different problems. And of course, cash flow is always the biggest problem. - Yeah. - But-- - It's the one that's front of mind. It's the one that's, like cash flow's always the thing that's, like it's banging on the door, no matter whether things are going well or not, it's there.
- Look at all of the big companies. You know, we talk about the market at the moment, and you know, I'm saying I'm suffering. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who works for a massive network of car dealerships, and one of the Toyota dealerships is down 30% on sales. Now, people might think, oh, car manufacturers make it a min. They make about two to 3% per car. The actual brand, whatever, Toyota, VW, whatever, might make the money back at the factory, but the dealership network hardly makes anything. They make it on servicing.
So, you know, he was saying that the pressure that he is under and the pressure that the staff around him are under to sell more is immense, but being told to sell more is the obvious thing. - This is all outcome, like-- - It's KPIs, right? - Related, yeah. It's not process-related. - Yeah, and that's why, you know, going back to earlier, is that I don't like KPIs because what they do is they create friction and tension and pressure that means that I just don't think you can do KPIs with the knowledge of your guiding
principles and filter them through properly without feeling pressure to just do a sale and sacrifice excellence or communication or community, you know, in my instance, to do that. And so anyway, so the market is really, really bad, and so cashflow is really, really bad, and the ATO will say that everyone's really bad and they're all on payment plans, and, you know, Reserve Bank is, you know, whatever, slashing interest rates and everything else, and accountants are saying, we're gonna help you, we can do this, you know, and all our accountant friends, it's great that you do that.
And, you know, you are wonderful helps, but you can't fix the problem of cashflow. That is something that you have to have a relationship with those customers or, you know, if they're wholesale customers or people walking up to the door, people paying for a coffee, whatever it is, being able to capture their mind and their heart and allow them to be part of something bigger than themselves that's where you get that buy-in. So it's gonna be an interesting next couple of months to see what happens. I think honestly, you know, standing at drops, sorry, standing
at the drops of Juniper Stand at Juniper Loser and looking around to the other distilleries, the other 60 or so, I'd say that depending on where the market goes in the next 12 months, three quarters of them might be there on the other end. And that's because they've got massive overheads, and that's because they've got, you know, this brand new still and everything else. So did we go the right way about it? I think we did actually in reflection - For now, yeah. - to have that minimal risk. But anyway, so it's, you know, you just can't predict what's gonna happen.
The only thing you can control is the environment of which you're operating and how you operate in that environment. - How do you balance, I don't like the word balance, but how do you balance between the desire to, and always wanting more to the appreciating now, and like what's going on right now? - Yeah, it's a good question. I think, you know, my wife has a massive part to do with that. And, you know, it's also being part of a really good community of people who love you and wanna support you and want the best for you.
And I think if I didn't have any of those things that I wouldn't be happy or successful, I think I would have burnt myself out well and truly by now and probably working in a desk job again, which I would be hating. Not that there's anything wrong with desk jobs, but that's just me personally. So, you know, she plays a massive part in that. My faith plays a massive part in that. My mentoring circle, you know, I catch up with two other guys fairly regularly and, you know, we sit down and talk about each other's lives.
We all do something very different. We all married and, you know, young. So trying to work out what that looks like and the challenges of marriage and all that sort of stuff. So I guess the simple answer is community and the ability to listen, which I'm not always good at. And I'm sure people listening who know me know that sometimes I just have to go down a path. And sometimes a path works and sometimes it doesn't, but it's the mistake that I will make and learn from with the knowledge that I can go back to the community and they'll welcome me back and go, you're an idiot.
- You're learning by doing. - But I love you, yeah, absolutely. - It's learning by experience. - Yeah, and so it's important to surround yourself with the right people, but also to surround yourself with people who aren't the same as you. - Yeah, 100%. I think that's the cool thing about a lot of the businesses that are connecting over and over again around here. You know, the Jetty Road guys, Four Paws, Common Foe, Snakehole even, like everyone's different. - Yeah. - But when you sit down like this and have these conversations, we're all going through the same shit.
- Oh yeah. - It's just presented in a different package. - I think levels of success, like if you think about Grant from Jetty Road, for example, you know, his level of success is people can walk into a space, a brewery, and sit down and have a beer on tap and have a meal and see, you know, Blake in the brewery doing something. And people might go, oh man, I really wish that I had a brewery. I could think of nothing worse. I could honestly think of nothing worse, you know. - See him pulling his hair out.
- Yeah, he doesn't have much hair left to pull out, I don't think. But, you know, he's someone who, he and I are very similar and, you know, our banter is significant. But I have a lot of respect for him because of what he's doing. - Yeah. - I hope he's not listening 'cause he'll think that I'm actually being kind to him for a change. But I have a lot of respect to him for what he's doing because I think he's on the right path, but he's learning from his mistakes, changing the way that he approaches things and having another crack at it.
And it's because he's surrounded by some good people. And it's not just necessarily people within that same business, it's the external influences, like you said, with Virtus and, you know, Reese, as we're sitting in his factory and Common Folk and Snakehole and a whole range of just different people who are brought around the table by, was, you know, initially good coffee. - Yeah. - You know, Common Folk has a lot to answer for in terms of that building up. And I know that Keck would love that and Troy and everyone else, Benny, would love the fact that it brought people together and built this big family in the Mornington Industrial Estate.
- Yeah, it's cool. I'm very excited for drops to be a part of that. - And I think that's why we want to be here, is, you know, we know that we suit that. Yeah, and you know, we could go to Dromana or we could go to Seaford or we could go Moorabbin or anywhere, like, you know, it might be an easier time, but I think, as you alluded to right at the very beginning, there's no point rushing this part of this journey because we want to be here. We know that we're going to be supported by a good group of people around us.
And that's, you can't ask for anything more as a new distillery, I don't think, or a venue or whatever it is, is having that initial support, you know. And I mean, it's, you always have to do it through a different lens and the rose-colored glasses of, we'll open a bar and it's going to be the best bar and it's going to work. Well, everyone thinks that when they open a bar, otherwise they wouldn't do it. If they think I'm going to really struggle with the cashflow and I'm not going to really see my family, I'm going to have to work seven days a week to stupid clock in the morning.
- It'd be an interesting way of framing it if you're going to start a business going like, okay, what's going to go wrong? 'Cause most people don't think about it. Like, you kind of go, okay, yeah, I'm going to have troubles. We know that's going to happen, but what is actually going to go wrong? I'm sure when the distillery opens, we're going to go, yeah, it's going to be the best thing ever, but we're going to have cashflow issues. We're going to have to work too long. We're not going to see the families as much as we'd like to.
And there's going to be sacrifice, but without that sacrifice, none of these businesses around here would exist. - And I think, as you say, it's going to be different for drops because of our personal experiences, or at least the people who own businesses in our group of six, have that understanding and the knowledge of how it impacts you and what goes wrong. And it will go wrong, but being able to prepare yourself for something that goes wrong that you don't expect. So yes, I think that's, I think we're crazy. I love it though, because I think we're crazy.
Yeah, and you know, it's going to be, it's going to be something that's going to work. It might not work really well. It might not work the way we expect it to, but it'll work. - It'll work. It'll work. And I'm excited for it. - It's cool. Last question for you. - Go on. - What are you most excited for? - Growth. I, you know, obviously, and if, you know, if you picked up on this at all in the last hour or so, how long we've been talking, is it's about change and growing as a
person, growing in my faith, growing businesses, growing other people and growing a community that I just, I am just so aware of different people in their environments, hating what they're doing or struggling personally or in their relationship or whatever and, you know, I employed three people and I love that. I love it because I give them freedom to do what they want. You know, Rory goes surfing whenever he can, which is great. I give flexibility for, you know, people to do whatever they want, whatever they want. I'm not the kind of person that says, you have to be here this time and you have to leave at this time.
Come here, do what you can or what you need to do in the time that you've got and then go home and try not to take work home with you 'cause I did that enough for everyone, which is, you know, which is a whole real thing. But that growth for me is what excites me and that's growing in the people that I know, like, you know, connecting to you through drops and through Tommy and drinking and now the Virtus family that you've got that I have access to that are now listening, you know, which I really appreciate.
But, you know, I think growing is important and challenging is important, but being self-aware is important and surrounding yourself with the right people is important. And I think if you're listening and again, you hate what you do, or even if you love what you do, you can always be better, you can always grow and it's never too late to learn something. It's never too late to admit that you've made a mistake. And I think surrounding yourself with mentors, and mentors are important as well. Like I've got a couple of mentors that from a faith point
of view, from a leadership point of view, from a business point of view, that, you know, who are so much smarter than I am, and they probably wouldn't admit that, but they are. And I lean into them and I listen and I grow, but-- - They'd have a circle of people that they'd say the same thing about, you know, it's a beautiful thing about mentors and people that you look up to. They've been down paths that you're wanting to head down. - Yeah. - And if you can pick their brain, you fucking may as well. - And you just have to ask.
I think that, you know, the idea, if you haven't got a mentor and you're thinking about, you know, I really want to challenge myself in something, just ask somebody. - Everybody wants to help. - You know, I think about, and my wife who is a coach in Navy, she does leadership and cultural development coaching in Navy, you know, she'll talk to her counterparts about, let's say Joe wants to go and be a camera person, but he's, you know, working on a submarine or something. I don't know. She'll go, all right, well, what have you done in terms of steps to get there?
And he'll say, oh, I'm nothing or whatever. And you know, I've looked at this online course or whatever. One of the first things she'll say is, well, where do you live and who does, who's a cameraman in your local area? And have you reached out to that person and asked them, hey, can I just shadow you for a day? 'Cause people just want to feel valued, right? So you can reach out to like, I can, from a, you know, a big band singing point of view, I can reach out to Michael Buble and say, hey man, how do you do what you do?
And he'll probably ignore me, right? And that's okay. - You've gotten too big. - 'Cause you've gotten too big. It started at a local level. So for me, from, I was at one point of view, a podcasting point of view, I reached out to the people that I knew about podcasting and said, how do I best do this? Where should I spend the money? Where should I do this? And you start building that up, but just ask the question of someone. If, you know, business leaders, it's two in this room, there's stack from everywhere else. We've all got different experiences.
We all go through the same crap. Cashflow is always the biggest issue. So if you think you're starting a business and you think you've got money, just remember that cashflow sucks. It will suck forever. Yes, in some cases, triple it. But you know, that growing for me and that one, that what's next, ties into surrounding myself with people who are already bigger than me to understand what mistakes they've made, learn from them, but also be challenged by them as well. - Perfect. Mate, thanks for coming on. Let's do another one when the distillery opens. - Hopefully in the next six months.
- Yeah.
