S1E72 · Eliza and Sam (and two idiots) Discuss impending parenthood

Hey legends, welcome to another week of the Virtus Performance podcast. To all of you guys who have been diving into the earlier episodes and shooting messages through, appreciate it immensely. It's cool to see that episodes that were recorded a year and a bit ago are still being listened to and value is being taken taken out of them. I actually listened to one the other day and it was cool to kind of see where my headspace was at and see where a couple of people who I've spent the last 12 months with were at and to see like the growth and improvement in everyone is super cool.

If you have been enjoying enjoying it please give it a quick quick share and quick subscribe if we can keep growing this community that would be spectacular. Today's episode is a little bit different. Everyone on this this podcast has been on a podcast and had their own episode previously. We've got the powerful Tommy Turlak and we also have Sam and Eliza Keck so plus Pavlov. Apologies or deal with it I'm not sure which one. Pavlov, the the beautiful Pavlov is a canine. He hung out for the hour or so this podcast went for and made a little bit of noise so every time you hear a bark or a howl or a little whimper that's Pavlov.

He does fall asleep for a fair chunk of it so hopefully hopefully doesn't interrupt us too much. But today's episode recently Sammy and Eliza had some exciting news so Tommy and I decided that we'd do an episode where we discuss this news and what it means for Sammy and Eliza's future and what it means for our future and we kind of gave our opinions and thoughts and queries and stuff like that and asked a few questions about this news and about how it would affect them and what they were expecting and all these kind of things like that so so that you guys can figure out what news I'm talking about let's get stuck in.

My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone especially normal people have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Can Pavlov howl? Like, on cue? We all have to howl and then it gets into it. Go on Pav. Tell us more. What do you really think? He just wants my muffin. This is a boring podcast I agree. So welcome to the Virtus performance podcast. I actually don't know what episode this is.

I assume I would have done a net intro before this so. Oh yeah true because you don't know when we're going to release it. We don't know I'm not sure. It's kind of up to you guys which we'll dive into that in a minute but here we have the first five person podcast for 2018. I think it's the first one we had like seven. Pavlov identifies as human. Yeah so we have the first canine on the podcast we have Pavlov. Pavlov say hello. Hey Pav. He still doesn't talk on cue which is upsetting. We also have Sammy Keck and Eliza Keck and Tommy T who can't open a bottle of tonic without getting a lot of room.

It's room temperature. Team how we doing? Fantastic. What's happening? So this is a little bit of a different podcast. A bit of a different plan in place. We have a bit of an announcement that's kind of already been made but we're gonna make it again podcast style. Eliza Keck throw it to us. What's been happening? What's been happening? I've been vomiting all the time. Sam? What did you do? Are you vomiting all the time Sam? Just bad cooking. That's not true. Everyone knows I'm a great cook. Do they? No yeah we're having twins. Shit. Twin babies.

Twin babies yeah. Well yeah you should clarify. We do buy a lot of animals. Not snakes. Not budgies. Not dogs. Although that would be cool. So I think it was Tommy's idea, probably the best idea he's ever had, to sit down with you guys and have a chat from your point of view as expected parents and not expected parents of one kid but two kids who are gonna look the same. Yeah. Correct? They are identical. Identical twins. Holy shit. And then Tommy and I are gonna throw a heap of like questions at you guys about

parenthood and what you're expecting and what the plan is and and then the plan is to do another one of these podcasts in nine months when there's two identical balls of skin and baby fat hanging around. Cute. Cute balls of skin and baby fat hanging around. If they're like Eliza, probably cute. If they're like Sam. Oh no. I wasn't ugly. Hopefully they're as hairy as me so they actually are like puppies and then be like, "Oh cute puppy." So let's take a minute silence to hope that the dominant genes are yours, Eliza. Yes, definitely. That would be fantastic.

Tell us, so you guys found out you were pregnant what, a month ago now? Nah, probably two months. It's pretty early, yeah. So it would have been really early in the process and I was like, "Something's up with Eliza. I bet she's pregnant. I'll put money on it." For a few reasons. She was a bit tired, she looked a little bit different. I just felt like she, I just, I just reckon, I was just like, "I reckon she's pregnant." How did I look different? You're glowing in the face. Yeah, bullshit. Hey, no spare. No, but anyway, genuinely, I actually said to her, "I reckon you're pregnant."

She's like, "Nah, definitely not. There's no way." Well, there's no way because I did a test and it said I wasn't. Yeah. So I was wrong, apparently, except that I was... How long had you been trying at that stage? When you thought... How long have we been together for? We've been together for ten years. They've been trying for about ten years. Yeah, nah. No, it was a first try situation. First month off the pill. Which there's some, like, reason behind that, isn't there? There's, like, after you've finished contraception. I don't know if I can draw a diagram, Tom, but I think it's fairly simple.

But there's a heightened... Eliza, go on. I don't want to say risk, because it sounds like you're not trying, but there's... No, well, well, I don't know. Someone told me that, but that was, like, the only reason we thought... because we thought they were fraternal. We were like, "It's not in my family. There's no genetic, like, reason to have twins in either of our families." So we were like, "Well, it must be some hormonal thing that's, like, unbalanced from the pill." Lucky's not helping. No, it wasn't. So what was it, like, talk us through the process of what it was like finding out?

About just being pregnant? Just being pregnant. So, like, as I told Eliza, "I reckon you're pregnant." So she did a test, and she wasn't on the test, and I was like, "Nah, I lost my mojo." I did the test before you said that. Did you? Okay. So you said you weren't, and then I went to basketball, I'm pretty sure, on a Monday night. Had a good win, big encounters, going for three grand finals, lads. Your dad's a basketball superstar, just so you know that, when you listen to this in the future, kids. And I came

back home, and Eliza was sitting on the couch with, like, this, like, weird smirk, and she's, like, "There's a, um, I've got a letter for you." And, like, immediately I was like, "Oh, we're pregnant, she's writing me a letter." And she had this card that she'd saved for, like, uh, this is how I found out, I'm sure Eliza will tell you how she found out. There was this card she'd saved that said, "Don't freak out," and I opened it up, and it was like, "You're gonna be a dad." And it was like, "I knew it!" So this is more just a practice of you being right?

Correct. Yeah, that's what that story is. I just want everyone to know that if you're concerned about whether you are or aren't pregnant, I'm like one of those dogs that can sniff it out, I just don't know. Hey guys, welcome to the Sam Keck pregnancy test. So you actually don't need to be in the room, you can actually listen to this podcast and then send Sam a message and say yes or no. Good, good. But Eliza, why'd you take the test again? No, so, um, because I was a week late, and I was like, "Oh, it's just the hormones being all weird," because that was apparently really common.

He's huffing, he likes to huff. That lab breathing is not Tommy T drinking gin. I really like that he's, like, pointing to the microphone as he does it too. Just lie down, Pab. He's got a first job. Yeah, oh bless, he is. Sam has two Pabluk taboos. Awesome. If I had taboos, I'd have two Pabluk taboos. So what can you make here, Pab? Um, so yeah, no, I, um, I'd taken a test and I wasn't pregnant, and that weekend was my birthday, so I was like, "Sweet!" I'll have a, we'd been doing dry July, um, and then I was like, "Oh, I'll have a sneaky birthday drink," because it's my birthday.

Treat yourself. And I'm not pregnant, um, because I took the test, like, maybe Tuesday or something, and then Saturday was my birthday. Um, so I actually didn't drink too much. I only had a few drinks, mass port, and some beer, but anyway, and then, um, and then I was still late, and then I was like, "Oh," and then Sam had said, "Yeah, maybe you should try again." I was like, "Oh, I've tried, and I'm not pregnant," and so then, yeah, I did the test, and then went mental weird, because I was home alone, and it was just, yeah, what was that like?

Did you just kind of, like, I don't know, dance around and get excited? I just spent 45 minutes frantically trying to find the card I bought, like, five years ago to give it, for this exact occasion, and I thought I couldn't find it for ages, and I was like, "Ah, well, there was," I tried to plan, but it didn't work, but yeah, no, and then the card, I don't know, you should, um, you should find it, but it's like, my handwriting's ridiculous, because I'm just like, bleh, and then I had to wait, and it took ages to get home, so.

That's right, yeah, because I stuck around and watched, uh, David Anderson play, because he was playing with Frankston for some reason. Shout out. Yeah, shout out. I've been here. Frankston, no, I don't know. He's definitely listening. Yeah, I would be. Oh, probably. I would be if I was in the league sportsman, listening. First on list, first on caller. So, what was it like, obviously, starting to tell people you were pregnant, and then the transition from, "Oh, yeah, by the way, we're having twins." And we all happened in the one fell swoop. Yeah. Because we, um. Well, no, we told family.

We told yours parents. Parents, and we weren't going to tell even siblings or anything for a little while, um, because it was literally like five weeks or something, six weeks, and then, um, yeah, then I think, did we tell siblings? I think we did. Yeah, yeah, because you really wanted to tell your brothers, um, and I was like, "Oh, I want to tell my siblings as well, then." Yeah, it was a little bit of a play off, because I was a bit nervous, because your family all live in the local area, and there's a lot

of intricate, whereas I have a brother in Africa and Sydney, so it's kind of like, they're not going to tell anyone, but then I understood. It's not fair on Sam. And to be honest, like, there were enough kids, my side of the family, for which they don't care enough to go and tell everyone. Mostly told your favorite neighborhood strength coach. Yeah, I did. Actually, yeah, you were the first person other than family to find out. In a bag, Tommy. Well, for health reasons, ladies. Yeah. Not because you actually like it or look like it. Oh, yeah, sorry.

Also, it was nice that we could tell. Yeah, no, well, unfortunately, the, um, the extra prowlers and skipping went undone. Yeah, yeah, no, it was not. I felt fine at that point, when I told you, I wasn't feeling sick. I was just kind of like, "I should probably say something just in case." Yeah, you'll wait till too nonchalant about, because obviously we've, like, through the gym and through coaching for a long time, we've had a lot of, a few pregnancies. Yeah. And you'll wait till too nonchalant, you're like, "Nah, I'll be fine, it'll be sweet, we'll just get right, we'll just keep doing what I'm doing."

And I'm like, "Dude, give it a couple weeks, I've been cactus." Oh, man. And you were. I was so cactus, I've been cactus ever since. Yeah, so what was it like finding out that you were having twins? Do you want me to tell my story and then you tell your father? No, well, I, um, it was a Saturday night, I was at Cam's house. Shout out to them. Shout out. And, um, yeah, and Coops, Coops and I were at the front of the car, like, in my car, watching Ladder Goat, one of the funniest things on the internet, because he hasn't seen it.

And, um, yeah, and then I suddenly was like, "Uh oh, something's wrong." And so, we'd all just arrived, which was a bit awkward, and I was like, "I have to go, sorry, bye!" And thankfully, he's just on all those hills, so I just took myself to emergency at Frankston. And, um, Sam was in Filth Island drinking quite a bit with some mates. And so, I, um, I was in emergency on my own, I called my parents and they were hilarious. Cooper, uh, Ladder Goat, I'm in emergency. You called me. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, and then I was calling and Sam wasn't picking up at all.

So I was in a really loud bar. Oh my gosh, so I was texting Andy Vanderbeek because he was with him as well, and I was just like, "Emergency, get Sam to call me." And then, um, and then I called my parents, and they were, um, they were out for dinner with friends, and they just, like, ditched their friends, and were like, "We'll pay you back!" and just ran out the door and drove down so fast. It was quite funny. Um, but yeah, so then I was just in emergency, and they just took some bloods and stuff.

And, um, and then next minute, Sam had called and he told me he was a bit, had a bit too many to drink to drive, and I was like, "Oh, I'll be safe." I was like, "Fuck it, I'm going anyway." And then next minute, he was there, and I was like, "That was, like, 45 minutes." Is there any police listening to this? I'm sorry, but I'd do it again. Yeah. Boil. Bite me. You wouldn't. Yeah, so I do not condone drinking and driving, but yeah. But yeah, so we thought it was all over basically at

that point, and then, um, yeah, and then so we went home probably about midnight after, and then I, um, and they said on Monday the ultrasound place will be open at the hospital, and you can come in for a scan to just see if everything's okay, and then, um, and then Saturday, Sunday morning woke up, and I was like, "Oh." We were just talking about how it's going to be a really crappy Sunday because, like- Just waiting to find out, yeah. Yeah, so we were just sitting there just like, "Oh my gosh," and I was,

of course, as much as everyone's like, "It's not your fault," of course I was just going through all the things I'd done, like it had it somehow affected them, and anyway, and then we, I read something at like 2am the night before because I couldn't sleep about, like, if they have a, if they can see a heartbeat on the ultrasound, then, um, regardless of anything, you end up, um, there's like a 90% chance it'll carry through as a normal pregnancy, so that was all I was hoping for. Yeah, and then we literally just said to,

um, each other how it was going to be a really difficult day, and like, I got a call from the emergency, and they were like, "Oh, we've got to stop this morning if you can come in half an hour." Straight in. So, um, yeah, it was just like, "Oh, thank goodness," yeah. Yeah, so we were pretty nervous, I think. You can tell the rest of it. All right, this is so funny, this is so funny, the next thing, so we get in there to emergency, and we probably wait, I don't know, maybe 10 minutes out the front, like, they're obviously prioritizing.

Pavlov. Good Pavlov, contributing now. Pavlov, come here. Pavlov, well done. You tell them. Those little children. They're not playing with you, are they? Pavlov, come on. Come on. Maybe, put him in here and shut the doors. Anyway, uh, and yeah, so, and then they called us in to get a scan, and, um, and you can tell, like, the lady was, like, the sonographer was scanning, and she was taking a long time. Pavlov, you're going to be an uncle. Come on, all right, well then lie down. Lie down. Lie down. Riveting listening. Okay, sorry. Um, he'll lie down, actually.

Um, anyway, and she was taking a long time, and, of course, I was thinking, we were both thinking, that, um, that it was probably, something must be wrong, you know, like, she just sort of said, yep, there's the baby, there's a heartbeat, it's all good, and so I was thinking, oh, she's, she can't find a heartbeat, she's, you know, we've, like, we were pretty, I was, we were sort of, honestly, I think we were both resigned to the fact we were, like, we've, we've had a miscarriage. We kind of talked about what next, and everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and, you know, it kind of started almost grieving in advance, preparing yourself, and then, and because she took ages, and then she, she looked over, and she's like, oh, look, and she held the, the scan over a particular spot, and you can see the little heartbeat, she's like, look, there's the little heartbeat, and we're like, oh, my goodness, like, Eliza's face, I wish I was filming, I didn't want to film, because I thought it was going to be bad news. Yeah. If I knew it was good news, I would have, um, it was just, like, pure elation, and I'd never seen more relief, and excitement, and happiness, all in one thing, and then.

Except for when you shaved your mullet. Yeah, correct, that, oh, she was way more excited for that, so I forgot about that. We call it the, the third job, um, and then the lady, like, uh, just kind of, so casually, just moved over a little bit, um, to another spot, and then she's like, and there's the other heartbeat, and Eliza's face, it was like, you were sitting, like, I'll use this example, because it's like you're sitting in your lounge, and eating dinner, watching TV, and then a car crashes into your lounge room, or something, it's

like the thing you least expect is going to happen, because we were thinking we'd gone from one baby to none, to having two, and I was like, yes, get in! And Eliza, I'm pretty sure I just started laughing, and Eliza's face was just, um, uh, well, it was still elation, because she was still super happy, but also kind of, like, holy shit, what have we done? Two babies? Yeah, that's insane. Yeah, it was hilarious, so it was, it was the best day of our lives, but also possibly the most shocking, um, it was definitely, the amount of, like, emotions that we kind of went through from that night through to the next day was, like, it was pretty crazy.

It's like an emotional roller coaster, emotional ride. Yeah, and so, and then, because, I guess, um, we'd both been with different groups of people who both saw us, like, kind of leave, and, like, there was explanations required, and we kind of talked about it, because at that stage we probably only... I think the reason, at least from my perspective, because that day we basically were like, let's tell everyone, let's tell everyone, and the reason we hadn't really, I don't know, like, told people I was, because of my work is, like, I don't know, a permanent job, so I'm trying to keep it under wraps, so I'm on a podcast.

Yeah, sure, this is probably, this is probably the best meeting, so no one listens to this anyway. Eight people listening. Hey, Mum. Hey, Mum-Mum. But, um, yeah, well, we figured we'd start telling people, uh, because, and you also wanted to support. Like, we'd just gone through, like, hell and back, and now we're in, I didn't know what mood, like, I didn't know what state of mind we were just then, it was just, like, I was crying, and happy, and freaked out, and everything all in one weird thing, and so I was like, no, we need

to tell people, because if something bad happens again, I, yeah, screw going through that alone, why would you, like, it's, our society sucks at, you know, dealing with death, so, um, yeah, so anyway, that happened. Yeah, that's cool, because then you get your whole community, and whole tribe that can support you. And we have such a strong community and tribe, too, it would be strange to think that, that we might go through, like, the most horrible thing anyone could go through, and for no one that we love to know, which, it just, it seems really weird.

Yeah, it made it really clear for me, like, because I was like, oh, you're meant to tell people, yeah, you know what, they say you're not meant to, like, who's they? That happened, and I was like, no, no, no, screw this. Yeah, yeah, it made sense to us. It's good, screw what you're meant to do, right? Also, now we knew there were twins, we were holding out initially for the scan. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we weren't, yeah, of course, of course, yeah, we wanted to have a concrete, concrete, yeah, photo and stuff. So, now that it's happening, what are you expecting?

I am expecting that it will be difficult, but I'm also kind of letting it come, like, as you were, I love to know every little-ass detail, like, I just like to know stuff, and so I'm doing a lot of reading and everything, but I'm totally convinced that that can't prepare you for reality, and I'm just prepared for it to be difficult, but also awesome, yeah, I'm kind of really open for it to be different to what I expect. Yeah, but it's not like, I mean, a different sort of thing, but in a similar way, opening

your own business, you know, you've worked before, and I've been around kids before and babies, but when it's your own, it's totally different, and there's a whole lot of new stresses and responsibilities that come with it, and I remember the feeling, like, you know, of a few weeks into comic book, the overwhelming sense of, you know, kind of like, it's all on me, and I imagine it will be a similar thing, but in this case, I get to do it with Eliza, so... Yeah, I wasn't around when you opened your business at all. No, no,

no, you weren't working with it, I mean, like, and that's no disrespect to my business partners either, like, because obviously they were there, but they weren't working in the business, so yeah, it's kind of cool to be able to do it with your best friend, and then, you know, at the same time creating humans, in this case, one human split into two. Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, I'm super excited, I like, I want to say more excited than Eliza, she has to go through all of the hard stuff, but I've always wanted twins, so I just thought it would never happen, and now it's happening online.

He says with gin in his hand, I get to deal with all the fun bits. Pretty much, yeah. Alright, you, Eliza, what are you expecting? Oh, I don't know either, I mean, everyone who's had twins, or whatever we've read, it's basically like, expect the first year to be really hard to even remember, because it's just like, chaos, and you're just so tired all the time, and you know, so, and then, from there, apparently it's easier than having one, because they're aware of each other by that point, and then they can like, take care of each other a bit, so.

Cool, so you're just going to have them parent each other. Yeah. 12 months in, just like, we're going to have kids, see you later, outsource. Enjoy. Love, love. Have love, have love, we can nanny them. Yeah. Yeah, easy. Yeah. So you're just kind of like, gonna hang out and see what happens? Mmm, yep. What do you think the biggest day-to-day change will be for you guys, like, daily life? Sleep, I guess. Don't they say you don't sleep? I don't know, they don't. I think it'll be just not being able to do things without considering, you

know, what you do with the kids, like, that's, I reckon that's a big one that people don't think about, like, they know that they'll have kids, but I think a lot of people are sort of like, yeah, I'll just keep living on as we are, but I'll just have to change nappies, but there's way more to it than that, I guess. That was one of the biggest things when we found out twins that I, because I knew, oh yeah, to an extent you're going to have to, like, but also when babies are small, you just put them in the little container and take them around, like, to an extent.

You're tired, but you can do that. Get a little lunchbox in there. I used to, like, I used to nanny seven kids, one of which was four weeks old, so I kind of have a reasonably good idea. Impressive. But, um, but at the same time, like, it's like, you can't fit them, like, you can't go to the supermarket, it's easy, like, I've been dreaming, I've been having dreams about, oh, this supermarket has twin, twin, um, like positions for the, for the, um, trolleys. Trolleys. Why is that my dream? How boring have I become? Yeah, this is your life, this is your life now, man.

But that's my thing, because how do you go to the shops when you've got two? You can't put them in the thing, you can't do a trolley and a pram, I don't know how they actually. Sleep in the car, crack a window. Yeah, crack a window. It's fun. We were at the zoo the other day and we saw a mum with, like, It was a couple of twins. There was a bunch of, yeah, either like really close together kids or twins. And I was like, you're gonna have to think about what pram to get. You're gonna get like a side by side, which is stupid.

I think it's too wide. Yeah. Or you're going to go the stack, which is like one in front, one in back. And that's like a complex that your kids are going to have. Yeah, the front kid on the back. Oh, the front kid. This is, you're at the front because you're the best or you don't mind getting damaged. You have the shield, the shield child. Kid one's gonna stop kids who really are. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's all these things you're gonna have to come across, which normal parents don't really have to with just one. Yeah, you've got a bunch of different.

Yeah, there's like a multiple birth, like support group thing in Frankston that you can join, which everyone said, just go to that. And then you can find out, like, what's the best plan and what's all that? All that kind of twin paraphernalia. So like even Sam's gonna get like a double wrap where he's gonna have one on the front. One on each boot. Because I think, not putting words in Sam's mouth, but I think he thinks it's going to be pretty chill. And his day to day is going to be more or less the same. He's going to wake up.

He's going to strap the kids on and he's going to walk down to common folk, get a coffee, kind of chill out. Do soy milk, baby chinos. Probably. No, they'll be on espresso pretty quick. Yeah, yeah, just skip the beer. Yeah, he'll just kind of hang out on his laptop, standing up at the roast bar, hang out and then wander back. Yeah, it's definitely what it's going to be like. I think he, I think in his mind, like, what do you mean? Way three, he's gonna crawl in and go, help me. You got yourself in this position.

I haven't left my house in five weeks. Yeah, I think, like you said, sleep. I think just the fact that one is going to be awake and one's going to be asleep and it's going to wake the other one up. Yeah, they're going to be asleep at the same time. All the good advice was like, it was like, with one kid, never do this, but with two, you should just get them on the same schedule. And if one's asleep and the other one wakes up, the other one up too. Yeah, force them to be very much the same.

Which was because you wouldn't do that if, like, well, apparently you wouldn't do that if you had like a single baby, but parents were all like the same. They're like, you can try and let one of them rest or the other one's fed, but like legitimately you'll put the other one down and then immediately the other one will wake up and, you know, literally no sleep. So I guess we'll probably, I think it sounds like having a really tight schedule is really important with twins because otherwise it's double the work. How would that go with you because you're not the tightest, most scheduliest person in the world?

No. Well, luckily I won't be the one breastfeeding them if they can breastfeed, I suppose. But I think at night time it won't be so bad because I don't have a lot of sleep anyway. It's a zombie. Yeah, a bit of a zombie. So I think that I'll probably be able to support Eliza in that sense. But during the day, like realistically, I'll have to be at work probably fairly soon after the birth. How fairly soon? I don't know, like we'll be safe. I was talking about this one, yeah? No, we did. I think Eliza told me I have to take six weeks off, which I'm happy to try and do.

Thank you. That's going to kill you. Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing is I live really close to work, so I'll be here just with the baby. You think he's going to be away from work for six weeks? Yeah. I'm not allowed to lift. If it's a seizure, you can be six weeks out. I'll have to be at home. So yeah, I think it'll be tough. I don't do anything. It'll shake it up. I'll have to get very rigorous. I mean, I'm much more organised and structured than I was pre-owning a business. And so I think this just will be another string for that bow of improving my coordination of my life.

You mentioned reading a lot. What resources have you started diving into to start learning about it? For me, like the most recent has been because we found out we're having Modi twins, which is identical, but two different amniotic sacs, but one placenta. And so it makes it a risky pregnancy. And so I've been reading a lot of scientific papers on any research to do with that compared to other types of twins/other babies and everything. Just because I want to know the chances of everything, which for some people would scare them. Whereas for me, I just, I like to have that information so that I know how much to not or to worry.

Yeah. So probably more of the medical research papers. Have you been in the same ones? Because like, because I remember asking you about it once and you're like, "No, I'll just kind of go with the flow." Yeah. I expected you to be more like that. Yeah, no, not when it's about myself. Yeah. Yeah. If it was like researching for work or something, I'm all over it. I want to know everything and I want to be like the most knowledgeable person there can be on that topic. But about this, it's kind of like, it's not going to change anything I do.

Well, I'm more reliant. I just want to make sure I have good doctors and stuff around and then just rely on them to do all the reading. And you're also exhausted and sick. Yeah, I've been really sick and really tired. So it's just made everything a bit tough at the moment. Who are you guys leaning on in terms of support networks? One, people around you, but also people that have experienced this before. Oh, gosh. There's no one person in particular. I think family is pretty big. But my parents, my mum was devastated because they've got this big holiday, like two and a half month holiday booked that they're now on.

And she's like having a great time, but she wanted to be here. Yeah. She can just be here for the fun stuff, like 20 wake ups. And I've already made them cancel the holiday next year. So my dad's a bit sad. Yeah, good. But, you know, I think, I don't know. I've just been joined by anyone who's had twins. Yeah, anyone and everyone. And especially anyone who's like connected to twins. So it's actually weird. We know it's like a disproportionate number of people who are twins or have had twins. So I feel like we've got a bit of a scope to prep up.

So my dad is an identical twin, which a lot of people are like, "Oh, that explains it. That's why you're having identical twins." I'm like, "Nah, the science behind it shows that it's totally random and not hereditary whatsoever." So I think it's three in a thousand births are identical. And so somehow that managed to happen two times in space for two generations. So I don't know, but I know, like I talked to your mum a bit lucky because obviously your sisters are twins. And I've talked to Brooke Johnson, her sister's having twins as well. There's a lot of people who, one of our friends, her sister just had twins.

It just seems to be not uncommon for some reason. Coop's a twin. Yeah, Coop's a twin. Yeah, he's got a twin sister. Fortunately for Grace, they're not identical. True though. But it's also probably Jen as well. Ah, and of course one of our close friends, Jen, is a pediatrician. And she's actually not currently working. She's not even a pediatrician. She's just spending her time smashing walls in Virtus and Commenfolk. Like sidebar for everyone listening. Yeah, just support it. In a week and a half, Jen fell through a roof at Commenfolk and then knocked a hole in a wall at Virtus and slight hamstring strain while she was warming up.

So I don't know if that happens. How does she look after children? Oh, that's it. I hope you can look after others because you're not looking after yourself very well. She's so funny. Yeah, and she's been really good. Yeah, shout out to Jen. She'd get her on a podcast. That'd be, I'm sure she's got a fascinating story. Oh my gosh, she told us so many. We went away on ski weekend and she was telling us all the weird requests they've had for births and it's like hilarious. Give me the top two. I don't know if we should though, just in case.

Yes, you should. Well, no, she didn't, she didn't go into details about who they were. But like, I don't know. I think, I can't remember. There was the one who wanted, who had the Caesar, the emergency Caesar, and then she asked if they could put the baby up there anyway, just so it could get the flora. Oh, that's right. Yeah. So the idea that if you don't have a vaginal birth, then you're compromising the immunity of the immune system of your child. Put it in the dirt when it's out. Well, yeah, so she actually asked the doctors to like put the head in her vagina.

Smell it, smell it. So they could get her flora. Yeah. Okay, so legit, no, but there is like some science around. No, no, no, I know, I know. Mainly for allergies, like big deal, like just get, but yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of guilt with like certain views on parenting, like we're like mothers and I guess fathers feel like that if they don't do a certain thing, a certain way that like they've compromised, you know, a better child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's actually funny, I never got that before. I'm like, don't just don't be an idiot.

Whereas now I think I'm starting to question every decision we're making just because I'm like, oh, I want to make an informed alignment to do something properly as opposed to just kind of be like, ah, the kids chuck them in the woods, they'll survive. What have you changed, apart from Eliza not getting the habit on weekends, have you guys changed anything day to day in, you know? I'm literally doing everything for Eliza then and she yells at me if I don't do like one thing, she's like, oh, I'm pretty good. I reckon that's about 8% true.

Is that not true? I think you're about 20% true. Slightly more attentive. Yeah, so like sometimes when I'm really sick, but like actually after our big scare, Sam was like, so like I was waking up at three every morning, vomiting, like I was really sick a lot. And Sam sleeps through everything, right? He can sleep through flipping anything. And yet I would just be like rolling around, like in agony and he'd be up and he'd be like, making sure I was okay and stuff, which he woke up like that was just crazy weird. And I

think it was because he was scared and you know, everything that that phase has already gone away again and he's back to being a bit like last night. I don't even remember this. I was so tired. We're friends over and I kind of fell asleep while I was there because I couldn't keep my eyes open. And I had a throbbing headache that was in my face as well. And I just asked Sam to get me Panadol and he said, no. And then I just fell asleep. No, I heard like Eliza mumble. So like, oh, get me a Panadol.

I'm like, can you not get Panadol? No, but if she, like, I thought she was just having a win, but she won. I was like holding a bucket and half asleep. No, but you were asleep. Like I thought you were like just talking, Eliza talks in her sleep. She like mumbles shit. I would have got her a Panadol. I apologize. I'm like, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were like, you know, seven months time. I'm just sensing like, Sam, you need to take me to the hospital. Take yourself. Well, it's funny. We like, like more likely than not now, given the type of pregnancy we have, we'll probably just be given a date and we'll go in for a seizure.

We won't have a choice because of the type of pregnancy. So that's interesting. That was something we've not thought of. Like when you're having one child, you kind of feel like you have autonomy over how it's delivered. You know, you can choose, you know, to have a natural birth. And if that's not going to work, you can choose to have a seizure. Whereas we'll probably be relying on the advice of our medical professionals and obstetrician and already, it appears to be more likely than not. It's changing and changing. Yeah, I guess that limits the bandwidth of things that can go wrong, maybe.

Yeah, I think that's definitely the logic behind it. Having a modi natural birth is super, super risky. Especially for the second twin. Yeah. Which one's going to be your favorite? First one or second one? Underdogs. Underdog. No, no, second one. Tingency. Maybe the second one is just being patient and just going, you go out because I'm going to smash you for the next 20 years. Oh, do you know what they're for? Well, my dad is the second twin. Yeah. So Steve always makes sure. It reminds him that, like, you know, he was, you know, second. Yeah, every time.

Some people don't tell their kids, like, the order. Well, I was going to juggle them. And I don't even know which one. It can be a bit like of a, like, I was reading, of course, some mom blog or whatever. And that actually, it became a bit of an issue for this woman's kids. Because the one who was told they were first kept bullying the other one with that. Like three year olds. That's all you've got. Yeah, I know. So it's like, oh, you should just not tell them until they're old enough. Well, I would just say, I just tell them, even if you're new, because you probably know.

Cause they're gonna, I just do like, oh, we didn't, we just, we, we, um, juggled you. So we actually come out, you wouldn't be able to keep it. What, what kind of mom do you want to be Eliza? What do you mean by kind? I don't know. What kind of parent will you be? That's a broad question. It's a very broad question, like, intentional. Trying to think of all, like, labels or something. I don't know, I'm a parent, doing my best, trying. Yeah. I don't know. I can't think of anything particular. We kind of asked this before, before we turned on the mic, before Lucky was here.

Cause he was late. Cause sorry. But things like, what about your parents? Do you love and want to put that into being a parent yourself? Or what did they do that you think could have been done differently? Maybe not negative. Yeah. Something you would do differently. Like things that you've obviously seen in, or even just other parents that you've seen do something or like we use the example of like, maybe technology is a good one to jump off with. Seeing kids with technology. You guys mentioned some people you've seen do it well. Some people would do it poorly.

Like what's your stance on technology as the kids are growing up? Yeah. Well, I think, um, you don't want to, yeah. And this for all we know could change. It's very nice to say exactly. I can just see like future Sal's being like fucking idiots. Such an idealist. But, um, but this is the time to be an idealist. Cause you know, we don't have to deal with the actual reality yet. Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we would probably prefer to have, um, not too much screen time all the time. So it would be like a

set time, maybe when they go to bed or when they're like a certain, you know, every day they only have a little amount and, you know, when you like go out and, but actually we were also saying, cause it's twins. It'll probably be easier because when you go out and you're like talking to your mates and stuff, you see those people trying to chat and their kids like, give me something to do. And so they just give them a phone. Yeah. Your kids will have each other. Exactly. They'll just muck around together. So it will be hopefully a bit less difficult to actually monitor that.

Yeah. I kind of see a little bit of us versus them. They're going to gang up on you too. It's trouble. If they're like me anyway, if they're like Eliza, they'll just be seeking our approval all the time. I didn't lie, I didn't do anything wrong. Eliza used to freak out when she was a kid because, um, her brothers told her that she had a lie in her name because her name was Eliza and she got really upset because she thought it meant that she had a lie and she didn't want a lie. Aww, how could her brothers?

Yeah, don't know. To give you some context. So we definitely want our kids to be as cute and nice as Eliza and not like me. Aww, but you know, I guess you think outside the box, which is good. When you were a kid. I mean, there was that time you stole $20 out of your mum's wallet to go buy lollies and then you didn't know what to do when you had all this change. So you threw it in the bin. I didn't realize how much money $20 was when sherbet bombs cost like 10 cents each. Oh yeah.

Sherbet bombs. How many have you ever bought? 200 sherbet bombs. Yeah, it was out of my depth. Just literally chucked it in the bin. Like $19. Yeah, so same thing outside the box, but you know, could have fought harder. Yeah. Well, what about all your sister was afraid of the dark, so you used to pretend to be the dark and talk to her and make her like the dark. What a cute weird thing. Like weird childhood, but cute. Like to make your sister feel better, he would pretend to be dark. So she liked it. The dark was called Arnold.

I'm not kidding. Oh, that's fantastic. That's good. It's probably the time to mention that Sam was fed kombucha, whatever, like fermented very young. Yeah. Before it had flavors. And it's the ironic thing is that my mom is like, she's all about sobriety and like total, like, you know, like abstinence from alcohol. Yeah. But she, she actually was home brewing for us before I ever, ever figured out that home brewing could, could get you a cheaper beer. Jenny Keck, the original home brew. Good. What about things like vaccinations? That's a pretty clear cut one. I think we're both.

For us. Yeah. Well, I mean, coming both of us coming from, I guess, a fairly scientific background. The jury was out a very, very long time ago on vaccinations. They'll be getting vaccinated. Yeah. Having said that, this is important for me is that I don't just assume that things make sense. Like I, I've read some literature on it and I've talked to enough people who know they're talking that to be confident, but there's some vaccinations that, um, you know, are less necessary or required than others, but all of the standard ones, absolutely. Yeah. They've saved

like so many millions of lives that it's the, like for me, the arrogance to think that you would know better and, you know, be above that. It's really frustrating. It's about control, I think. Yeah, yeah, and I, and I sympathize in the sense that like ignorant people be ignorant, but, um, but I just wish that you'd get educated. You sound very sympathetic though. I'm not sympathetic. I think you're a fucking idiot if you don't believe that. If you start with the, you know, I'm sympathetic, but it's a tactic. Ooh, lull them into a false sense of security.

Yeah. My mom is, she questions vaccinations a lot and actually the reason being with me when I was a kid and I was vaccinated, I had a really bad reaction to it. Actually, like, so it goes to show one reason why we would consider not doing it. Like you were very sick when you were little and got sick. And so, and that, and, but that's actually like, it's the exception that proves the rules that like, okay, vaccinations, there is a risk, but the risk of not being vaccinated is so significantly higher. It's not even, it'd be like saying, Oh, well I can't think of a good metaphor, but I'll think of a good metaphor and I'll say.

Talk to anyone who's really old, who had polio or you talk to the, talk to the, um, like I, at Frankston in the, um, Peds ward there's, I don't know, she's still the nursing manager, but I was talking to the woman who'd been nursing manager there for like 30, 40 years or something. Yeah. And she just, she basically, she'd been a nurse through the vaccinations becoming a thing and then no, like, you know, and then this whole new phase. And she was just like, if I could bring in like parents to come and see, like, and she's so upset that whooping coughs coming, becoming a bit more common again.

And she was just like, you hear these little babies struggling to breathe and it breaks your heart and you're just so angry and it's so avoidable. And she's like, and when people say, Oh, it's a personal decision. I'm kind of like, yeah, but, um, but it's a bit of an arrogant one too, for you to think like, you know, you flying an airplane and you don't question that it's going to crash down to the ground, but then you're questioning someone who's, you know, like, like literally we've spent more time investing in medicine and healthcare than we've been flying airplanes.

Like the, the science behind vaccinations working is significantly stronger than the science behind, you know, getting a plane in the air and yet you'll fire in a fucking plane. And then you're like, no, the doctor is trying to like support big pharma and kill my child. I'm like, no, fuck you. Seriously. Fuck you. Wow. You heard it from Sam Keeler. He's sympathetic, but. That's so true. You should have a spinoff podcast series. It's called I'm sympathetic, but. Tommy and Ryan have told me to do this for years where I just rant about shit. He could. Yeah.

But I don't want to offend people. I know I've just offended like a whole bunch of people who live in red Hill and stuff, but the lowest vaccination rate in the area. What do you think it is? They don't have enough to cover herd immunity. I think it's, I think when you're wealthy enough and living in a country that is affluent enough and has good enough healthcare and everything to sort of, you don't need some of those things that are integral for survival in say, you know, areas of the world where, um, disease is more prevalent and healthcare is not available.

I think that you can be lulled into a false sense of it can't happen to me. And, and, and it's that sort of like, you know, like organic food is better than inorganic food. And it's like, well, you know, like maybe you can avoid some shitty pesticides, but actually if you had like a, you know, like a perfectly safe fertilizer that just happened to be made in a lab, the chemicals are the same as the ones that you get from chicken shit. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, it depends. And I'm not, I don't want to like poop and all that kind of stuff cause there is good science to certain elements of all of those ideas.

The problem is that people assume that because one thing is good, then all of it must be good. Um, and that's, that's just really not true. Just like, you know, like one shitty thing will happen and Nestle will, you know, create like a, you know, a formula for kids in China that ends up actually causing them to be severely malnutritioned and like injured and stuff. And therefore, you know, like all formula is bad and it's like, well, that's just not true either. You throw the baby out of the bathwater. So to speak, babies, surely if you threw one out, you'd realize the other one, like if one's still there, you'd be like, where'd the other one go?

No, you've got to go back up. You've got to back up. Shit. So plan B. What, what about education? Like how, what was it like you guys growing up at school and how do you want your kids' education to vary or differ from what you experienced? Well, I, so being like, oh, we disagree with this, but I just think, I think it comes down to the kid as well. So, um, and I was talking about this with Tommy the other day and I've talked about it with Eliza Heaps, is that if you've got a child

who you know is, is a creative intellectual and is gonna, you know, do really well in a system that supports, you know, like creativity and intellectual stimulus and really stretches you and challenges you, then I consider sending them to a school that really ticked those boxes, depending on what it was. But if you've got a child who, you know, is much more practical or, you know, just doesn't display, you know, um, those sort of characteristics and you try and pick a school that kind of supports those, which means the whole public-private debate is less, you know, is private better or public better?

It's like, well, what's going to be better for our kids? I think for me, it was very social aspects. Like if your kid's super outgoing and social and would thrive in either environment, that's cool. But if your kid is a bit more shy and needs nurturing, maybe one is better than the other, because I think if your kid maybe is less outgoing and confident in themselves, they might be easily led and could, could go down a path maybe that you don't, that you disagree with as parents or something. So maybe, I don't know, I think

it's more social a lot of the time because school is our, our social, your friendship group has so much more effect on you than your parents. Until you become an adult. It is your whole world socially, pretty much. So yeah, they're the ones influencing you pretty much probably as teenagers as well. They're going to be influencing your kids more than you guys are a lot of the time. So choosing the social aspect of it as well as the intellectual side is very important, I think. Absolutely. So, and I don't think you can make a blanket rule for each kid, I think.

Yeah. For instance, like twins, like identical twins, well, if they have quite different personalities, you've got the added thing of, do you split them up or not? Yeah, I don't reckon comfortable with that. I just, I think that would be less likely than likely, as in like just seeing what my dad and his brother are like. They, they were, they actually needed each other, like, you know, when I was younger. So I think it'd be rare to have identical twins that don't, that aren't each other's best friends, at least for the formative kids. Yeah. Yeah.

That was like Breon, I was talking to Breon, a friend of ours who's of a twin, and he was saying, you know, you go to school and all those things are not as scary because you've got a best mate with you. Yeah. So you're experiencing everything for the first time together. Together, so you don't feel like... That'll be an interesting sort of pathology as well, like, you know, how you, like, they're going to have such a social experience their entire lives. Um, you know, when, when, when do you deviate from that? Or when do you... So it's dependency?

Yeah, I was going to say, like, when is that? I guess we'll see that as parents. Do you think it's important to introduce that independence in them earlier than later? I think so. Yeah. Like in a healthy way. So maybe different instruments or different sports or those... Like how people, like, suggest, you know, don't leave your kids sleeping. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One, drums, you know. Yeah, the band's going to be called Sounds Like Keck. You're welcome. But yeah, I think it's very interesting. So, like, I know a couple of twins and very, very dependent on each other.

And it can be creepy. It can be. And also healthy dependence or unhealthy dependence can be a thing. So when they become adults, like, having relationships, like romantic relationships or even just friendships, like, they're very unwilling to deviate from just being with each other. And it has to... The other one has to agree with it kind of thing. There's this committee almost to how they run their lives as opposed to this independence. As opposed to, like, a safety net. It's more of a, like, everything must be joint decided on, which is... So I think, yeah, you guys will cross that earlier than later, which sounds like a good idea.

Yeah. Yeah. They're not identical, but my sisters are, like, the twin equivalent of yin and yang. But they're, like, best friends at the same time. Which is awesome. They don't need to spend a heap of time together. And they do a lot of time, but... And their relationships definitely progressed and grown over the last few years as they've both experienced different things. But they're super different, like... What was it like being the older brother of twins? Did you, like, did they always have a closer bond to each other than you and your other sister had to...

Yeah, I think it was the three of them against me a lot of the time. And I don't know if I'm just saying that or if that was actually the case. Or if I just felt that. That was your view. That was my view. But, like, I know, like, Bec and Jess... So Bec and Sarah are the twins. Bec and Jess are the... Jess is the middle one. She... They got on really well. So it was kind of like Sarah and I got on really well as well. And then, obviously, we all went through our adolescent angst as anyone's going to.

Yeah, so, you know, it's funny because there's probably times where I got on with Jess the best and then times I got on with Bec and then times I got on with Sarah. And, you know, we're very fortunate to have two well-adjusted parents who got us to the point where when we were older and when we were past that teen angst, for lack of a better term, that we're able to... Like, now we've got amazing relationships. And I don't necessarily have to see them all the time to have that close relationship. And I think they're the same with each other.

Like, Sarah spent nine months overseas and Bec did the same thing last year. And it's cool to see Sarah play footy, love footy, be heavily into outdoors and stuff. And Bec being... I'll say Sarah isn't, but a little bit more intellectual. A little bit more into the reading and the science and psychology side of things. Which is cool because, you know, they both experienced the same schools. Obviously, different sports growing up. Got dressed in the same outfits. Nah. Are you guys gonna do that? Oh, I think occasionally. Hijinks, you know. Just to take the piss? Yeah, just trick them.

Just don't tell them there's two of them. This is the first... As soon as I found out you had twins, I was really happy for identical because I just feel like if they're anything like one percent of Sam, they'll be the most fun and they'll just cause, like, mayhem. They'll just trick everyone. Yeah. And I'll encourage this wholeheartedly. Like, KK asked me to ask that question about dressing the same. And I said, if they're anything like Sam, they're gonna dress super weird, completely different, but they'll look the same. Yeah, they'll look the same because they're both weird.

Yeah. Well, actually, there was one thing we've always talked about. It's, like, people like, "Oh, you need to find out the sex so that you can, you know, dress appropriately." And I was just like, do people still do that? Like, do you buy pink for a girl and blue for a boy? Like, I was the, uh... You're so progressive. Whatever. But not even that, like... Like, so give some clarification. Like, when I was a kid, I had an older sister and I was a second. So I just wanted to be, like, I just wanted whatever she had because, like, you know, why did she get it?

You looked up to her, yeah. So this lady from our church we went to, like, made this beautiful frilly dress with puffy sleeves for my sister. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, I want one." So she made me, like, this... Basically, it was like a blouse. It wouldn't be the same as my sister's dress. And I was like, "Yeah!" It's the best. He was like, "I think I want to be my third Christmas, maybe, for a birthday." I think I was about three, maybe a little bit older. And I got a Barbie. Nice. Mum and dad were like, "Yeah."

I was like, "Cool." Just, I think it's... And you guys are probably very similar if I know you guys at all. You're not going to put any gender stereotypes in there. Not really. But also, you're not going to go the complete opposite and treat boys like girls to try and force them to change. I think kids are kids. I mean, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I've, you know, I've spent a fair appeal to my life as a child. But also, I just remember, and I do distinctly remember, not understanding sexuality, like, well, probably too far into my teenage years though.

Like, as in, it just wasn't a thing. Like, that's why I was so comfortable wearing... And my mum was great. Like, dress ups. I mean, you could dress up as whoever you wanted. I mean, I had to dress up as, you know, other boys. It was just like, you know, it's part of being creative. And I was lucky in that sense. My mum is like an art teacher and super creative and everything. And I just think that kids can just be kids. And I'll just encourage them to be themselves, for sure. I can be proud of that because, like, how could you not be proud of your kids?

Yeah, love them regardless. Let's have shit. Yeah, in which case I'll lock them in the bathroom. Let's have terrible people. Sam, what are you going to do with one of them or two of them? What if they're bullies? Oh, that's a lot. Punch them right in the head. I've talked to Beck Van about this, the crew, because, like, her kids are great. Shout out. And I just said the one thing I'd be really shattered would be if my kids were, like, bullies who are just really mean to other kids for no reason. You know, like, picking on vulnerable kids.

Like, I have a really strong sense of, and Tommy will testify this, I really like outcasts and want to see them built up. And I want, you know, I would like my kids to go out of their way to involve people who are on the other. And actually, I think I would say, in this room here, I think all of us have that personality to a certain extent. And it would, the thing I would be the most shattered would be if my kids were the opposite of that and were bullies and actually picked on, you know, kids that are unusual.

It'd be very hard for, like... It's gonna be hard for my kids to not be unusual though. So I would say, if anything, they'll probably be the ones getting beaten up. Other than they might be huge in the area. No, they won't get beaten up. Yeah. It's actually gonna be jacked and strong. What do you reckon, Eliza? We've talked about this. Like, not wanting our kids to be bullies. Yeah, no. Well, what would you do if you found out that bullied someone? I don't know what you'd do. Yeah. Because no one in my family, like, none of my brothers or sisters...

No, but no, yeah, they didn't bully me. But they weren't, none of, like, I've never seen parenting of a bully because none of us were bullies. Like, Pete Keck, legend, shout out there. He was, like, probably the most admirable. He's my favourite, still the fourth favourite Keck. Yeah, it's definitely, he's my favourite Keck. Oh, that's definitely beverage. No, but he actually stood up for, like, kids. He's what, like, I love my kids to be like Pete. I mean, Uncle Pete. Because he got help from school for beating up a kid who beat up his best friend.

That's fucked up. And I'm kind of like... I'm not surprised. I'm not into violence myself. But, like, if anyone's gonna be violent, be violent in a just sense. Yeah, like, stick up for people. Defend those who can't defend themselves. That sort of justice is important to me. Yeah, do that, twins. If you're thinking of being a bully, bully the bully. Be like the fat kid on YouTube who, like, like, pillar drives the kid and punch him in the face in the ground. Yeah, yeah. How good is Pete Keck, my man? Seriously, 40 chin ups in a row.

Ridiculous. Yeah, he's a freak. Shut up. What a man. What the, I guess, the belief side of things is really hard, as we're talking about before, for parents not to, like, pass down their beliefs, right? What are you guys gonna do to either ease back on it or, like, you know, how are you gonna approach that subject? Yeah, yeah. Eliza? Oh, sorry to me. We haven't said much. Yeah, it's alright. I don't know, I think the way you treat your kid will be very dependent on how their personality is. When they're little, little, like, certainly we're going to want to instill, you know, manners and being considerate and kind and all those kinds of things.

And then if they get older and they start questioning, like, why and all that, I guess we cross that bridge when we come to it. But yeah, I don't know. You're more the philosophical one than the other two of us. I'm pretty straight edge. I'm very just, just focused, so I would just be like, it's the right thing to do because that would be so bad if it happened to you, so then it happened to someone else. And it's pretty simple for kids to understand too. Yeah, empathy seems to be a pretty, I think, easy thing.

Like, I don't think kids naturally think it because they're quite... You can teach it. But I think you can teach it and as soon as you do, like, when they're... The good thing is sharing's not gonna be an option. So hopefully they're more... Up for baby children, actually. Yeah, yeah. Which would be lovely to see. I did say to a friend, Breon again, the twin, he said, "Oh, you become really patient because, you know, I'm dead feeding that one, so you just wait and then they'll feed you." And it was just, he's like, "You got no question."

Yeah, that's cool. And I guess from a, maybe a more philosophical outlook on life, I think that, like, so a lot of myself both have, like, I guess a Christian faith and I really appreciated my parents investing in that part of my life for me in terms of, like, I'm glad that they didn't just leave me hanging, you know, like, kind of, like, and just figure it out on your own because someone's gonna influence you, so probably better to be someone who loves you and cares for you. But at the same time, I am a

true believer in, if you're gonna have faith and if you're gonna have, like, a life belief and sort of a set of virtues that you, like, work towards, I think you really need to choose that for yourself too, which is another thing I really appreciate my parents really gave me. So it's like a balance between the two. Yeah, they never forced me to do anything. Actually, I remember distinctly my mum asking me what I believed when I was quite young. And, you know, like, I was young, so I was probably gonna err on the side of, you know, what I've been told, but I remember it was my opinion of what I've been told.

So I think that it would definitely involve our children heavily in our faith. It would be really important for me to share that. But, you know, come their, you know, adolescence and young adulthood and everything, I'm not going to fear that they don't share my beliefs to a T. I want them to, if they had to be, you know, spiritual people or people with faith, I'd want them to have their own. Otherwise, they don't have one anyway. Well, then it's almost like if you go too far either way, they'll rebel, they'll want to rebel, maybe. But, I mean, I love the philosophical discussion, so I think it would be challenging for me if my children don't enjoy that.

Because that's how I would share my faith with them, would be, you know, why, even in the face of contradiction or, you know, kind of rationale, I could still hold beliefs that seem to be, you know, like a stretch and then on the flip side, you know, like maybe if they were, you know, more of a spiritual type, how I could also be so comfortable with, you know, glaring contradictions between, you know, science and religion and that sort of thing. So, I don't know, I guess we'll find out. Will they, like, will you take them to church or?

Definitely, yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, I think so. Definitely. No, no, I was just, in my mind, I was going through, like, what that would look like. Yeah, because, like, that could be something that's done, you know, more in the community, like, church is an area or an outlet for that. Yeah, there's not a lot of churches that share my outlook on Christianity and faith. And they would probably teach a more black and white traditional version in, like, sort of, you know, church thing, but I'm okay with that because I think that, like, honestly, like, high school and primary school science does a similar thing.

Like, we're not asking, what I think will be important will be for me to tell my kids that, you know, I don't expect, you know, don't assume that you know everything and let things build and grow and change. It's okay to change your opinion and let things, you know, develop. And it also, like, that adults, just because they're old and they sound like they know what they're talking about, don't necessarily. Adults just be kids. Yeah, just trying to figure everything out. Yeah, because, like, I remember realizing that sort of, you know, mid-20s, I'm like, "Wait, shit, I'm supposed to be an adult now and know stuff."

And I feel like I know less. And you look around someone who's adulting more than you. And you realize that no one really is and you're like, "Oh, I get it now." I think, if anything, the two of you will want to make sure your kids are seeking to be the most informed about no matter what it is. So if you can inform them about your beliefs and things, they can make their own decision, but it's your job to inform them, give them all the tools and the information more than make up their mind for them, I think is what you're...

Yeah, teach them how to think. Yeah, that's kind of like, because I've already done empathy before, because that's, like, something that you want to instill in them. But that, like, critical thinking and ability to dissect what they're told is probably, like, kind of thinking, "Well, shit, when we get to this stage in, you know, 20 or 30 years, I'll be like, what are the things I want to instill in my kids?" And, like, that ability to think critically and not take anything as gospel is probably number one. Yeah, I think that healthy skepticism, maybe, because that's much like you guys are very scientific.

As long as they don't play minding, I don't care. Yeah, actually, I haven't even talked about what sports are playing with one. This is the thing. So obviously, when you're young, you're very, you're like a sponge. You can take anything in. What are the things that you guys want to throw at them early and hope they, well, because put it this way, if I let a language in primary school as opposed to high school, you have much better grasp of those kind of things. So the Japanese primary school, I can't remember anything. That's just, that's a youth problem.

What are the things that you guys want to, like, put in front of them or give them early on, like sports or academic stuff, music? Well, probably a little bit of everything. See what sticks. Yeah. Sam and I both like music, playing instruments and stuff. So I think that's one we're definitely keen. I think with sports, like, it's just a case of what they'd like to do. I'd like to get them a trampoline very early on because that helps with their coordination and stuff. Four-three use is really important really to create tension and things. Yeah. When's Burt is going to do Burt's Kids?

It's starting next term, so hurry up. Oh, hello. Hurry up, come on. Quick business. Shout out to all the parents in the area who want to get their kids a leap. Yeah, well, because I think of that question from a physical and nervous, developmental side of Ryan. I think, I think I want, and like I'm just going with my kids, right? But this is how I'm going to, this is how I'm going to coach your kids, by the way, just so you know. There's that resilience side of things and that ability to remove ego and stuff like that.

So I think the, but learn a skill at the same time. So I think something like a martial art when they're young will be an incredibly strong tool because that's, and it's all, you know, it's martial arts, depending on which one, they're all very much internal battles as well as the external stuff. So I think that'd be really important. Something like gymnastics for body control and movement and, you know, ability to create tension and move, move well is another one. But then having the, and like kids, like from a sports science point of view and from a, well, obviously point of view, they shouldn't generalize really early.

They shouldn't be, my kids five is a footballer, right? So I think those two as individual sports, I'd love my kid to get into athletics as a, like, you know, it's, it teaches heaps of different skills, speed, power, endurance, all that kind of stuff. So that's another individual sport, but then have them playing two or three or four team sports. So they learn that holy shit, it's not all on me. They learn how to win and lose and improve and grow as a team leadership. Yeah. So having them in team, in sports that they're not necessarily good, like good at as well.

So what would you do if your kid was just like super not interested? They'd still learn how to the movement side of things. So like, yeah, it wouldn't be a, I thought, what if your kid doesn't like sport growing up? I didn't like sport, but yeah, I kind of, and this is one of those ones that I kind of wish I'd been forced to do more now. Like I really love basketball now, but I didn't start playing till I was 19. Like, man, imagine if I played when I was in primary school and like I just had better hand-eye coordination from playing a sport regardless.

Just those kinds of things. I think this is obviously a very novice and uninformed opinion because I have kids yet, but I'd love to make sure that my kid is doing some kind of movement, some kind of music and some kind of like extracurricular, whether it's creative or team sports. Yeah, I think team is good. Just teaches so much about life. Like I talk about the gym as a, as an opinion for life, but team sports is the same. Like you learn how to win, you learn how to lose, you learn how to work hard, like all those kinds of things.

And then, so I think, oh, Pablo is still here. I forgot about Pablo, I think he's dreaming, he's running. I think having a, having like balls in their hands, different sized balls, you know, maybe a bat. I never like, I never played anything or did anything with a bat. No, I didn't play cricket. Athletics was Saturdays, right? So yeah, like something that, where they can express what they're able to do and you know, hopefully my kid loses most races until they're 12 and then they decide to dive into it all. But like, I think it doesn't really matter what it was.

So if they change their mind, like I played table when I was young and I did like, I played 40 for a year and I was like, yeah, cool. We won the flag. I'm done now, right? I didn't gymnastics for a term. I'm so pissed off. Mom didn't make me keep doing it. This is the thing. So I come back and I'm like, why didn't you make me do it a little bit more? Like, obviously you don't want to force your kid to do anything they don't like, but I think there's a balance. But there's a balance.

Well, you have to. It's like, okay, well, if you're not going to do this sport, what sport are you going to do? You have to pick a sport. Well, I've talked about it on podcasts before. Like I remember there would have been, you know, I trained three times a week for running through like 11, 11 onwards, like as well as footy and stuff like that. Tuesday, Thursdays and some Sundays when we weren't playing footy. Athletics on a Saturday or cross country throughout the year. Footy on Sunday. It's not that much, mate. Remove it's like an hour and a half.

Wait a second. That's a commitment from parents as well. Yeah, we didn't do any weekend sports because my mom was like, nah. Yeah. So like, I'm incredibly fortunate that mom and dad drove us to that stuff. So yeah, running training a couple of times a week, running, like competing on a Saturday, fighting footy on a Sunday, all like all that kind of stuff. I remember, you know, multiple times where I'd be like 4.30. I'd be like, I don't want to go. We'd start at 5 or 5.30 or something, but I don't want to go. And

dad would be like, you go, and then, you know, there'd be this big song and dance and I'd go and love it and, you know, train hard and see all my friends and stuff like that. And it was always, you know, you don't want to let your coach down and stuff like that, but that, or you don't want to let the people that are there down and stuff like that. And that instilled, like, I reckon that's a big reason why I've been able to be semi successful in a bunch of stuff I've done is because I've had that consistency and that show up even when you don't want to drill into me from a young age.

Just because you don't want to doesn't mean you just get to not. It doesn't mean you shouldn't. Yeah. So that's something I'll... I think that's called good parenting. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Rob Dogd and Mumma Wallace. Yeah, because, you know, I don't, you don't want to be that helicopter parent that's over the top and overbearing and, you know, like, oh, you don't want to, you don't have to. Yeah. But I don't want to be like that. I don't want my kids to ever receive a medal or a ribbon for anything they didn't deserve. Yeah. Or didn't work hard for.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a choice in it. School might hand it out. Just burn it. Genuinely. Take them out of class. Yeah, I don't know. It's a hard one. Like, if they worked hard for it and didn't win, then fine. But it should just be, why don't you work hard? You can't just get one for rock and roll. Yeah. I think that's dumb. It's like, it's like the idea that, I mean, I get why you don't keep scoring, like, under 10s footy or whatever. The kids can count real well. Yeah, yeah, but there's something... I know.

It's like, adults think kids are dumb. And I remember being a kid and taking advantage of this because I remember being like, I can get away with this because they just think I know. Well, I didn't know about money, but I knew about, like, adults thinking kids didn't know what was going on. Yeah. And I just, like, everybody knew who the good footy player was. And everyone knew whether they were losing or whether they were winning. I'm sure. And it wasn't even, like, no one even needed to explain it to you. Like, you just, if you watched footy, like, on TV.

Did you play footy? Oh, yeah. Well, that was the other thing. So my dad and his twin were really good football players. Like, Pat played in Gippsland and Hastings won a few flags. I think one, Steve might have won a best in Ferris and everything. Yeah. But they were, like... Was it Steve? No, no, no. Yeah, it could've been Grace. Yeah. There's actually a story about that where they played an interleague. Like, they were playing, it was, like, Metro versus Country. Yeah. And they both got selected for Country. But, of course, the umpires in the other league, they didn't know that there was two of them.

Yeah. So Steve got best on ground because the guy was like, I looked up in the fourth pocket. There he is in the back pocket. And there he was again. He got, like, about to get 50 touches. He kept kicking it to himself. That was weird. Apparently, Dad just kind of huddled behind some of the bigger guys and Steve got another medal. That's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty funny. But, yeah, so I played footy when I was younger. But then I never kicked on. Like, it was funny, too. Were you, like, what you consider good at footy?

I was decent. Like, I wasn't great. I don't reckon I would have been as good as my Dad was. Because I was totally different body shape. Like, I'm 6'4" and kind of tall and kind of gumbo. And Dad was, he's like probably 5'8" and just a nugget, really, really agile. You know, he's, like, the opposite to me. Pretty much weird that he had me as a kid. So, but I could kick really well. So he, the first thing he taught me was how to kick a drop punt. And he refused to let me kick a torpedo or a drop kick or anything else.

No check sides. He's, like, doing a huge drop punt. I really appreciated that. I remember being at Auskick and being proud that me and my Dad were the only two parents and kids that could kick to each other without, like, stuffing it up. Yeah, that's awesome. Hey. What is that? A drop punt. Oh, my goodness. Ball spins backwards. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So it's a nice looking kick. Yeah. So, yeah, my kids all know how to kick. Yeah. Yeah, but that's the thing, like, because it'd be interesting because I was, like, fortunate enough, whether it was just lucky or practice or whatever, because I remember kicking the footy with Dad a thousand times.

Yeah. You know, every minute that the sun was out, we'd spend time kicking the footy out the back or out the front with our neighbors and stuff. And I was lucky enough to be one of those better players growing up. So it'd be, like, a completely different childhood experience for me if I wasn't one of the kids that could run or wasn't one of the kids that could play footy well and stuff, and I was a battler. Well, I ended up playing tennis later on, and I'm kind of like, like, and I, like, if I'd

started that when I was younger, I think I would have been, like, because I picked it up really quickly, and I got pretty good at it. We won, actually, I definitely won a grand final. We lost three grand finals in a row. It would be like milosh. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I'm, like, a big server, and that's it. But I kind of wish I'd played that earlier, because I think I would have been good. I only picked it up when I was, like, sort of 14, which is, like, if anyone who knows tennis kids, they're usually playing when they're, like, five years old or something.

Yeah, so what's the plan? Like, what age are you thinking at the moment off the top of your head to go? Sport time, music time. I'll give them their My First Football when they're, like, well, a day old. Yeah, it'll be coming out, I'll be like, here's a footy. Yeah, Jen's going to a sports thing at the moment. Shout out to Jen. Jen, my man. He's already can kick far better than any other kid just from being exposed to a ball and people in the gym. He's allowed to kick inside. Yeah, things like that. If you teach them how to kick inside, then they're going to be able to slot doors.

But so he's already far ahead just from being having a ball around and available to him than some of the other kids. And he's, like, not even three yet. Yeah. So it's never too early, but what's the, okay, what's your sport? What's your music? What's your kind of thing? I started learning piano. Trying to change, I think. But as long as you're doing something in each of those zones to keep you stretched, I guess. I reckon music's like probably, like, as soon as you start primary school, you can start, like, if you're handwriting, you can learn to play piano.

Play recorder. Yeah. Yeah, we, um, we got a piano from some, like, random great aunt or something when she passed away, we inherited a piano. And mum always would tinker, she never really learned, but she had a really good ear. And then we went to some concert or something with and got a cassette tape because that was cool. Um, and, um, I really got obsessed with it. Rock running off the movement. And I would sit there and listen to it. And then I learned the whole start just on my own, like, sitting in front of the piano.

Mum was like, oh, shit. That's cool. And so she, like, enrolled me in lessons, then I would have been like grade two, we were in America, so probably grade two. But, um, the person she enrolled me in was useless and taught me everything wrong. So when I came back to Australia and I was about, how old? Um, I would have been about 10. I, um, I went to a really fantastic teacher and he was just like, we have to start again. And in fact, from beyond, because we have to unlearn all of this. That's really interesting.

So that's another thing to consider. Yeah, because like some, like the kid, if they find something they love, they're going to dive into it and do it regardless of whether they have someone to teach them or not. Like, yeah, like Dave Brohl, someone that everyone knows, he's had one guitar, uh, one drumming lesson ever. And apparently he walked out because he's just like, his cousin. He's like, you just listen to it and play it. The drums is like the easiest instrument in the world. Anyone who's like, okay, being a really good drummer takes some skill, but just being a basic drummer is super easy.

It's skill and consistency in practice, right? No, not even. You can't just sit down and grab a guitar and play a chord. You need to know what you're doing. And the sound of the piano, you can't just wax and tease. If I sat down in front of a drum kit and started hitting it, it would sound... No, but just in your mind, just be like, what does it sound like? And just go like... Okay, so there are a couple of different types of people in this world, Sam. You're one of those ones? I'm one of the...

Nah, don't talk yourself down. I can do it. Yeah. Sam, you have to just acknowledge you're a freak. No, you're a bit of a freak. Well, I'll just... What instrument though? Because you've talked to me about this. Piano. Yeah, piano. If you do piano, you do its rhythm, it's melodic, it's a bit of everything, chords, it's structure. Like, piano is not cool. Well, maybe it's getting cool again now, but it'll give you a good foundation that you can kick on from there. It's really fun too. It's cool, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's more about what it will teach them.

And I think I really appreciate the fact that my parents really encouraged me to kick on with piano until I got to a point where I also enjoyed it because I was good enough to enjoy it. Yeah. Because it's not enjoyable when you're crap. Yeah, well, that's the thing, right? Like, if you start at 30%, then you're well ahead of the kids that suck at 30%. And I think on reflecting now, you just go, "Oh, man, imagine if..." And it's hard not to, but I mean, it's done now. But you go, "If I had just a solid foundation, I could choose all those avenues of music."

You still can. Yeah, well, that's it. There's no reason you can't. Here's a question for you too. So in 10 years, when we're sitting down and doing a 10-year reunion podcast, your kids are going to be 10. What are the things that you guys are going to do to either look after yourselves or not look after, but what are the things you guys are going to work on or learn or focus on for yourselves, not for your kids, that in 10 years, you can look back and go, "Yeah, I've spent 10 years getting better at this."

Is there something? That's good. That's a great question, actually. I think that it will be important for me, and I think that me and Eliza probably will keep each other accountable for this to make sure that we're still investing in each other and everything. I don't-- like, kids can-- kids not only can, but they will consume so much of the time you probably previously spent being selfish. Yep. This is fantastic. All the attention. And so I'd like to think that we still have managed to continue to fall more and more in love and be close with each other, you know, but with, you know, a couple of other kegs in the mix.

I think that, you know, it'll be interesting to see. I haven't-- I definitely sort of roll with the punches a lot of the time. For someone who thinks so much about everything, it's funny how sort of unplanned, like, a lot of stuff will be for me in terms of like, "Oh, I have to do this." I'll be like, "Oh, we'll see what happens," and I'll see-- Is that informed basically on how your life's going so far? Yeah, some things. I've made some decisions and big plans that I follow through on things like starting business or, you know, like playing piano or whatever or studying and everything.

But in terms of, you know, some of more of the life choices, like, you know, falling in love, I just let myself do that. No, no, no, like-- I want to hear the rebuttal. What's the rebuttal to that? No, as in, like, it wasn't-- I didn't, like, I didn't, you know, have this strategy or plan, you know? Like, I didn't go, "Oh, I have to fall in love by 22 or whatever and be married by 25." I was kind of just sweating, letting it happen. You're like actively fighting against it for a while. I know, what the hell is my thing?

No, you're not my best friend, Eliza. Well, you weren't at the time. Jeez. I was his response and I said I loved him. What, I'm not your best friend? No, you didn't say you loved me, you said I was your best friend. Yeah. And I was like, "Nah, TJ's my best friend." You know what case is shit? Marry TJ then. And then I tried to-- I said, "I would." I tried to break up with him and he cried. Oh, you little son of a bitch. And now you have no twins. It's like a goosebumps story of like choose your own adventure.

It's just like, "Oh, go to page 78." "Oh, now he's crying." Twins have twins, what? This is a rollercoaster. One for me is like, it's probably pretty topical now is diet and allergies and all those kind of things. Coming from science backgrounds and you, cafe, definitely we see a lot of allergy stuff happening now. What are your thoughts on exposing kids or not exposing kids to things? Yeah. Oh, I think like my middle brother had really bad like hospital level. Like he was always in hospital with asthma and he had a very extreme allergy to eggs and milk.

Even touching eggshells would make him blow up. But then he grew out of it. So I'm just aware that-- and Sam's got like hay fever and stuff. And so I'm aware that, you know, that could happen. But also like, you know, oh, geez, I hope they don't have allergies. I'd love to try. Like we're definitely not going to be like sheltering them and keeping them in little bubbles. Like I want them to-- When you bring them to the gym and you just sneak them out and rub their face in the dirt. Well, I think that's-- I mean, the science around that is pretty clear.

Here's where it gets funny because apparently if you grew up on like a farm kind of situation, you're less likely to have allergies. Sam, all of his siblings have allergies. He's at P. Just imagine how decrepit we'd be if we didn't rub on a farm. Yeah, there you go. Because yeah, I grew up in just suburbia and we're all fine. So I mean, we'll see. Like I'm not going to, you know, if kids are allergic to stuff, I'm not going to be like, no, toughen up. Yeah. But at the same time, I'll go with the best medical practice at the time to try and deal with it.

They do that exposure therapy stuff with it. Well, I think that's very important now. Like you should expose your kids in safe amounts of-- Yeah. Well, I'm gluten intolerant. I know that. Like if I don't eat gluten or even if I eat really minimal amounts of it, I feel, you know, let's say 10% healthier in my gut and everything. But that 10% for me takes say 20% enjoyment of life away. And so I'm like, no, no, you know that I made that. No, because I'm a foodie, I made that way up. Beer 10%. Beer 10%. I'm going to have a beer.

Yeah, exactly. And so I've made that decision. And it's the same with dairy. I'm not a huge milk fan. I hate milk as it stands. But I'll have one milk coffee a day because I want to know what my customers are drinking and I don't mind it. And I love cheese. So cheese. Cheese. Yeah. I just think it's interesting that if you intentionally keep things from your kids, it stands to reason that you're just going to, when they do finally get exposed to it one day, they can have an interesting reaction potentially to it. Like

I was watching something about peanuts ago and there was a girl with a very severe peanut allergy, but she is now like microdosing herself with tiny milligrams of peanuts every day. And her allergy is decreasing. Yeah, yeah, it does. So I mean, that's... They're going to have Pavlov licking their faces. That's important. I mean, you try to create hearty, tough humans that can survive. Robust is the word we use now. Robust. He's the word robust. Good. Robust. I like it. But yeah, I think that's... I figured you guys would be familiar. Yeah, I think so. I mean, this is the other thing.

I'm so like laughing at the start of the podcast that in five years time you'll just listen to him be like, "Oh, fools." But I'm happy to change my opinion. But a lot of people say, "Oh, you're not allowed to have opinions on parenting unless you're a parent." But that's just stupid because everyone's experienced it. Like, you know, at least there's a child. So yeah, most of my life I've been a child. Yeah, exactly. To be honest, I'm still a child. I just have responsibilities now that I shouldn't run away from. Maybe you shouldn't have yet.

No. Yeah, true. Yeah, so we'll see. It's kind of exciting. That's, you know, you get to explore that whilst being responsible for, you know, two little mini humans. This is the other one, and it's what science experiment are you going to conduct? You have a control that you can keep normal and one that you can mess with. What are you going to do? Well, it depends. Hopefully they're like born the same size and everything. One's not like inferior. What is it they call it? Inferior superior. I know, it's a surprise. Yeah, because then it'll be easier.

I thought the idea could be fun to vaccinate them both, but never tell them. Just tell them one of them's vaccinated and one of them's not. Yeah, one of them's protected by herd immunity. Yeah, and say one of you, we can't remember. But one of you. No, that would probably fuck them up. Have you guys read the book Biology of Belief? Okay, you're going to read it when I've finished it. I'm like three books later, it's gnarly. Not important for the podcast listeners, unless you want to read Biology of Belief. There's also a... Bruce Lipton, if anyone's wondering.

Is that a sponsor of his podcast? No, it's not, but it's a Craig book, so... A Lipton tea fan? No, no, different guy. Probably some relation. He's also got a couple of lectures online, if you want to watch on YouTube. If you're a watcher rather than reader. But it just talks about how obviously Darwinism and the role of genetics, and how we kind of got stuck into the mindset of it controls everything, and how our environment is going to be the biggest controller of who we are, and how things work, and stuff like that. You'd love it, you'd find it.

Interesting. Yeah, that certainly is. Yeah, there's lots of little tests you could do, like little experiments. I'm just curious to see, because I know one thing that I've been reading, and I think with identical twins it's even more fascinating, is whether one walks significantly sooner, or talks, or, you know, from a developmental point of view, the differences there, given that they're as close to each other as any humans can be. Yeah, that'll be fascinating. Like, so, you know, things like my dad and his twin, they had their own language, they couldn't speak, they actually struggled with speech.

They had, like seriously, a language that only they could understand. They can't remember it now. Was it just a vocal, or was it... It was vocal, yeah. It didn't speak until they were, like, older. Because, like, they just spent so much time with each other, that they didn't need to communicate with other people as much as themselves. Apparently it's not unheard of. No, no, it's pretty common. With identical twins. Yeah. So, I don't know, that'd be cool. I want to learn it too. Not special. Yeah. Sorry about that. Yeah, well, because, like, I guess they're going to be able to communicate.

They're in their own way before you guys are going to be able to communicate with them properly. And it's going to be cool to see them as two separate humans experiencing the world together. And yeah, I'm super excited to kind of be a fly on the wall, watching them grow up. Yeah. Bringing them into birdies, chucking them on a prowler. Uncle Wallace and Uncle Tommy, just, you know, leading them astray. Yeah, they can come to come if I get a rose for me anytime. I feel like, to be honest, if you're their influences, you'd probably be leading them back to the path.

Given what I probably did. Hey, kids, we're going to go to the brewery. Yeah. I genuinely thought I was going to need you guys to help. I might just call you one day and be like, "Help, help, help an irresponsible adult." Yeah, you've called the wrong number. Well, in our lives we've had discussions about, you know, whether there's anything we disagree with about, like, sort of parenting stuff, anything major. Yeah. So, sort of things like, well, we've got some things we agree with. Like, one thing that we both felt was pretty important was, we're both quite loud people.

Yeah. But we don't want to... You mostly, Eliza less. I can get loud. But we don't want to, I mean, being loud in front of them is fine, but we don't want to yell in anger in front of the kids, especially when they're young. Yeah. And that'll be a challenge, I think. Like, I'm not saying, like, anyone who knows us will be like, "What, shit, you guys yell at each other?" And I'm like, "No, it's just any conversation." So if we're angry, then it's just a loud conversation. We're very loud, we're very flash in a pan kind of arguer.

So we'll, like, get very, like, "That's stupid!" And then we'll be, like, fine and cuddling on the couch or something. Like, it's not, it never is serious, but we don't want, I don't want kids that... Yeah, kids that know that, yeah. That all, that's normal, and because, and also it can, like, freak them right out. I remember the first time my parents argued in front of us, I was like... What's happening? In high school, and it still kind of was a bit weird. Really? Yeah. Because they, and they don't, they don't fight very much. They have little squabbles.

My parents, like, my dad's super gentle kind of guy. Yeah, I think it's important. They don't, we don't... Big fight. Um, what about things like, uh, well, I actually thought about this the other day, because I just always assumed I'd do it, but things like, you know, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny and everything, just roll that. Well, we take them to church, so we're already caught up. Oh, hey! There can only be, you know, a number of, you know, like, enigmatic figures. You know, things in our lives. Um, yeah, I, because it's actually funny

that, like, I don't think people are like, "Oh, don't ruin Christmas, Walden," but I feel like the only thing you're ruining is the corporate experience of it. Because if, Christmas is going to be special. You're such a hippie. If you, if you, like, just kind of like, "Oh, we're giving you the presents." You know what I mean? Like, how cool is that? Your mum and dad are buying presents. No, you just want to have some fun. You just want the validation, the pen on the back. Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Dad. Thanks, Santa. And you were sitting in front of your fucking Santa.

You're teaching them the ability to believe in something they can't seem to feel and touch. Yeah, which is important, I think, sometimes, you know, because that's what, you know, gravity and stuff, you know, floating off in the space. Oh, yeah, you can feel gravity if you fall off the table. Well, no, you feel the ground. I don't feel gravity. I feel the effects of gravity. Yeah. What about, like, protection? It's like you feel the effects of Father Christmas when you, like, have this present. Yeah. Okay, you've sold me. I'm doing it. It's scientific. Like, protecting, you're going to let everyone hold them.

Oh, yeah. Let them run around. When they're super younger, and apparently this is, like, a thing, right? Because when they're really, really young, before they have their first vaccination, you have to be a bit careful and make sure that it's... Shut up. Apparently, yeah. Because, like, we can all be carriers of, like, who can cough and all those whatever bad things, but, like, you don't really display it because our immune systems are fine. But when they're super brand new now, kids are most likely going to be premiers. And so they'll be really, um, you have to, like, make sure everyone has their, like, boosters before they hold them.

Yeah. For, like, the first, like, 15 days or something. Which apparently can cause issues in families. Really? Yeah. I've heard people... In terms of getting offended. Yeah. Oh, can people just not get offended? No, no, people are allowed to get offended. I just don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, if I... Cool. Is that a thing, like... I'll expose my child to this. I can't imagine any without him actually caring, but... No, but, like, I know that, like, my, all my nephews and everything, I've been given to hold immediately. Yeah, you have, but you... So is it... I didn't actually didn't know it was a thing that you're not supposed to...

Yeah, no, um, well, um... It's like not taking your puppy to the dog park so it doesn't get parallel. Yeah, exactly. But, um, yeah, I, I don't know why none of your siblings have been focused on that. But also, um, you travel to Africa and so do I and stuff, so then we, we are, like, all set with our boosters and everything. Yeah, but they didn't, like, no one asked. Yeah. I guess. Well, I guess it's, like, not really... People don't realize. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting one. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I, I, I think that's the first idea of that being a thing you're supposed to do.

Well, I think it's one, like, I look at something like that, it's one of those things when we know better, we do better. So if you're aware of it, at least you can make, make the... I feel like that statement, well, for science communication, that statement's so wrong. Yeah, but we do the best we can with what we've got, right? No, you just do the best that makes you feel the best, like, to fit in with the people you're around. Well, it's just, it's just the idea of deficient, um, information. Like, if, oh, if we told people all the reasons why the actionations are good, then that's why.

Yeah. It's not, you're not governed by logic. It's bad motivation. If you know, if you know better, that doesn't mean you'll do better. Yeah, but if you're aware... But they don't know better, they, you're getting told it's better. Yeah. They don't know that themselves. But also their motivation isn't, you know, like, okay, their motivation is they want to look after their kids. And this is where, this is where, like, you know, I'm not going to backtrack on my statement of thinking vaccinations are really a positive for the world. But in terms of my understanding of why people would be skeptical of them is that all they're trying to do is do the best for their kids.

And that's their understanding of that. And so what's a much more proven record of getting people to get on board with, you know, sort of scientific advancements in things is rather than saying you're wrong, science is right. It's talking to them about why they're motivated to believe what they believe. And then sharing the fact that you probably share the same motivation in the case of vaccinations is to protect your children. Yeah. And then enter into the conversation that way. Yeah, because you're wrong. Yeah, like, and I mean, every, every good psychologist knows that, like, you know, you can't convince someone by telling them they're wrong.

You need to get on their side and take them on a journey. Which is why I get, it's actually funny because I'm like, I'm not told people to fuck off, they're learning to podcast. But like, I actually, I get... But you're wrong. I think it's really funny when people get upset at people who, you know, don't share their opinion as if somehow they've done that to spite the other person. It's like, no, they haven't. It's just their opinion. And more importantly, if you want them to get around, you know, what you believe in, then you need to enter into a relationship with them and a conversation and a journey.

Because, like, it's like, I mean, everyone shared, everyone had like a stupid opinion when they were a teenager. And it's like, I feel like sometimes these days, a lot of people in sort of, you know, general, whatever, Facebook worries, it's like, you know, as soon as they realize their opinion was wrong and change it, they all of a sudden, you know, like, start fighting against all the people who they shared an opinion with just 12 months ago. It's like, mate, like, give people a chance, you know, like, you know. You've got to go into that conversation with the understand that you might be wrong as well.

Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, if you go in with the I'm right no matter what, then you just can be with resistance, but from both ends and no one wins. Well, let's put it this way. It came out tomorrow, the vaccinations, you know, actually were a terrible thing and weren't actually helping. And I could understand that and see how, you know, science can take some time to get to change your mind. But I'd like to think that, yeah, hopefully I would like, you know, you know, trust people who have invested their lives and intelligence into, you know, doing that kind of stuff.

So I don't know. Maybe I wouldn't. I'm a bit of a stubborn bastard. Yeah. But you'll be stubborn for a point in time. Yes. For a period of time. Yeah. All right. We got a bunch of like short, sharp questions to finish off with. Okay. Tommy and I are going to throw one to each first one. Got any go to names? None that we're going to share. Yeah. I can tell you some that were like marked off the list. Yeah, that's fine. Go. So I can't call, if it's girl, I can't call her Jemima because apparently it sounds too much like a vagina, according to Eliza.

She would just get teased. Yeah. Yeah. Which is disappointing. Yeah. Sam also wanted to, he liked Jimbo and Chelsea. I'm not Jimbo. And I was like, both of those are like the bullies from the Simpsons. I didn't say Jimbo. Nelson. Um, do you have feelings, boys or girls? No, you know what? This shows how stupid that is because I had a feeling that one was a boy and one was a girl. So that's just wax. Not possible. Not possible. So, um, yeah. Confirm the information. Yeah. No, I'm just going to, I think we're not going to find out now.

Like I genuinely don't care. Like, like I actually thought about it because when there was a chance that we could have one of each, I thought maybe if we found out that wasn't the case, that I would then care whether it was two boys or two girls. But now that we know for sure that it's either two boys or two girls, like I've genuinely sat on it and I like, I just don't care. I've never been like, I need a son or I've never been like, I need daddy's little girl. I just don't care. I'm going to be so stoked.

They could be intersex and I'll be bloody stoked. I don't give a shit. Yeah. Bring it on. That's cool. Like this can be taken as a really broad question, but I want like a really simple answer. What are you most excited for? Uh, there'll be a couple of little people who love us more than any other people in the world. Like, you know, I think that'd be really beautiful. Yeah. I thought more immediate term, I'm excited to feel them because we had a scan this week and on the scan, you can see them moving around and one of them kind of like punches the other one and the other one's like, they just moved around.

And I was like, Whoa, I didn't realize they moved at this point. But, um, so they said pretty soon I'll start feeling what's like butterflies or something in your stomach. So I was like, that's kind of cool. Yeah. So that's a bit more immediate what I'm looking forward to. Tommy has the next question. Definitely haven't good. Well, that's it. Well, thanks for, uh, thanks for coming on and sharing step one of the process. I'm excited to kind of roll through step two and three and four and five and six and seven yeah with you. And yeah, good for you.

Thanks everyone for listening. Congratulations. Yeah, cheers to you both. Cheers.