S1E58 · Eliza Keck: Fun Facts with Eliza

Hey superstars, welcome to another week of the Virtus Performance Podcast. Cheers to all of you and your families for listening, for sharing and subscribing and all that stuff that I'm sure you probably haven't done. But if you are enjoying it, I would very much appreciate it if you could do so and then we can get a few more ears listening to me ramble and me talk to some amazing guests. Today's awesome guest is Eliza Keck. Eliza is the social media manager and a bunch of other stuff, basically the communicator of all things science and finance

and just awesome stuff, awesome complicated stuff that us mere mortals don't understand as well as she does so her role as the social media manager for the CSIRO, the National Science Institute is to basically turn the complicated into simple and to help get stories out there, really important stories about how we can make the world a better place and how we can save the human race for extinction and things like that. We had a really cool chat about how she got into the position, about all her amazing fun facts, about all the cool shit she

does and a little bit about the human race and where we're at and basically just me talking rubbish because I have no idea what I'm talking about so I hope you guys enjoy it. My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. It's not omni-directional, it's uni-directional. You're omni-directional? Yeah, your faces. Wow, we'll start. Oh. How are you, mate?

I'm good. I've got a cup of tea. Why do we have cups of tea? It helps. Well, wait, which answer do you want? I don't know. Throw an answer at me. Dry your eye. Can't have a gin. Love gin. Welcome to the Virtus podcast. I'm sitting here with my lovely friend, Eliza Keck, who's a superstar human. But I asked her if she wanted a gin and she didn't want a gin because she's doing dry July. So she suggested tea instead. Why tea? Well, because warm... Oh, okay. That's where you wanted to go. Warm drinks can help make your vocal cords kind of relax a bit.

And so it's an old radio trick. That's good. So me drinking... Back in radio journalism. Me drinking copious amounts of gin and milk. Well, that can relax your whole body, I guess. Well, that's probably true. The gin. Why don't you just start talking rubbish? Why are you doing dry July? Because Sam was doing it and my husband, and I was just kind of like, "Oh, okay. Sure." And you just thought, "Why not?" Yeah, it's not harmful. Alcohol is by far the most detrimental drug in Australia. It causes the most problems. So you thought a month off, why not?

Yeah. You know what's funny? I barely ever do say no to a drink. A, because I love. A, good drink. Play on. But B, because I'm so... And you wouldn't get... You'd never know this, but it's like the whole, "Oh, you're pregnant." And it's like, "Oh, fuck off." So I just drink anyway. Typical Australians, right? You have to all drink. I know, right? I know. I know. It's pretty interesting because Sammy was talking to me about dry July a couple of weeks ago. And this is the last time I'm going to talk about that, because no one cares, basically.

I don't care a little bit. But he asked me if I wanted to do it, and I said, "Oh, not really." Because I don't like conforming and stuff. But I said, "Oh, I'll do a month without alcohol starting now," which is about three and a half weeks ago now. And it's crazy how much you realize you just do things without really thinking. Exactly. There would have been... It's habitual. It's been what, three and a half weeks? There would have been 10, 15 times where I would have been in a situation where usually I would have just had a beer or a glass of wine or a gin, and I've had to go, "Whoa, this is normal?"

And it's really easy to get into those habits. Yeah. Have you found it easier or harder as you've gone? I've found it easy. I haven't really found it hard, but I look at some of the things that are coming up in the next two weeks and I'm like, "Oh, it would have been good to have a couple of beers there." Yeah. My birthday's in July. Oh, no. That's why I haven't done it before. But I might cheat that day. Cheat that day, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's really interesting because it's something that we take sugar out of our diet or we take soft drink out or whatever, and it makes a huge difference.

First question. Sugar's an interesting one. Sugar? Talk to me. Tell me about sugar. No, no, no. Just the fact that everyone, obviously sugar in high quantities is not good for you, does lots of nasty things, changes the brain and stuff. But you know how everyone's like, "Oh, don't give my child sugar. They'll go hyper." There's been a double-blinded test where they found that it's absolute bollocks. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a myth. So like, red cordial things or myths? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole red cordial thing. Complete myth. That's very interesting. They found that parents,

regardless of if they gave the child a placebo or actual sugar, if they told the parents they'd given the child sugar, no matter what the child had or hadn't had sugar, they're like, "Oh, no, no. Way more hyper." That's really interesting. And if they ... Yeah, and the reverse is there. That's crazy because it's kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Oh, yeah. Like, parents go, "My kid's going to go hyper when he loads up on sugar. He's probably going to go hyper because you're expecting it." Well, if you say it to them as well, they're going to be like ...

They're going to hear it. Oh, okay. Sure. I thought that on the weekend when ... So KP did some babysitting on her nephew and she was told, "Oh, he never sleeps well or he always asks for a mum." She's like, "Nah, he's not going to ask for a mum." And he didn't. And I was thinking about it that afternoon. I was like, "How much of that is her belief that she's not going to do it? And how much of it normally is the parents believing it's going to be a thing?" Wanting their child to love them.

Exactly, exactly, exactly, which is pretty crazy. But it's really interesting to see that that's the way we behave. Like, we kind of tell ourselves a narrative or a little story and expect it to play out. Well, storytelling does affect our brain chemistry significantly. It's so many fun facts. I love it. Guys, this is going to be an hour and a bit of just fun facts. Fun facts with Eliza. That's the podcast name. I took over, sorry. Yeah, sorry. Virtus podcast is done. We're now fun facts with Eliza. Give me a fun fact. What gets you out of bed in the morning?

Oh, I get pretty excited. My job's pretty awesome. What do you do, mate? So I work at CSIRO, so National Science Agency. What does CSIRO actually stand for? Oh, gosh. Commonwealth CS Scientific Institute of Research Organisation or something. Cool. Something like that. I don't know. You should probably know that. Maybe. I should. I don't. It's not important. No. You can't make memes out of that. No. My job is to make memes. And you're only, like, tiny bit kidding. It's actually your job. Yeah. Right. So you work for the National Science Organisation. Yeah. I do their social media stuff.

That's amazing. Yeah. So basically, the way I see it is that I'm flipping good at turning really complicated things into something people can understand. Good. So I'm like a translator for English. From English to English. From science to idiot speak or regular person speak. Or finance. I've worked in quite a few industries, but always complicated. Health. I work at the Peninsula House for, like, five years or four years. Yeah. Same deal. How did you get into the job you're doing now? Well, I applied for it. As in this specific job, I've always been pretty keen on science and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, Sam. Oh, no. Who? I didn't talk about him. Nah, I talked about him. He met. We were both in uni and he was studying zoology. Yeah. I used to sneak into his lectures and listen in. And just learn stuff. Just learn stuff because it's fun and you can. That's great. Like, why wouldn't you? But, yeah. So it's funny because we both went into our degrees both with the same goal but with completely different avenues. So I went into communications because it had a lot of film, radio, broadcast kind of stuff. And Sam went into – because I have – and I still have a vision of creating a documentary, a nature documentary.

Awesome. I've got a storyline and everything. I just need to get funding. And then he went into zoology for the same reason. We both want to be David Attenborough. Yeah. For those that don't know, Eliza's partner, who is batting well above his average. Blessed. Has also been on the podcast and he talked about David Attenborough for about an hour and a half. Did he? Yeah, he talks about it a little bit. Oh, I couldn't listen to his podcast because it's like being at home. That's great. I love that. So you both want to be David Attenborough.

That's fair. He's a pretty amazing human. Yeah, he is. I love watching Planet Earth docos and stuff like that. He's legit just a wonderful person. I was working with Ray Martin one time. Yeah. And he – His first name drop. Good for me. Oh, can I say you were challenged? This has reminded me. Yeah. You know how you have your bell for – Yeah? Where is it? I want to make the bell for every time you say 100 percent. Oh, where is this? That's going to be hard. It is. And I'm trying to not say 100 percent.

There's one. Don't say 100 percent. Yeah. Anyway, so when Attenborough came to Australia for – he's done a few tours. Ray Martin's the interviewer, and you kind of don't think much, but he was actually really good at it. Anyway, so I saw him, and everyone's like, "Oh, I can have a photo with you, Ray." And all I was like was, "You've met David Attenborough. Oh, my gosh." And I asked him what he was like, and he said he was just like the truest gentleman. That's amazing. Like ultimate gentleman. I was like, "What's this?" So one degree of separation from David Attenborough.

So – He was getting there. I'm two degrees of separation from David Attenborough. For sure. Yes. Oh, you know what? You're probably two degrees from separation from like a lot of people, because my dad was a journalist, so – Really? We met a lot of famous people. Oh, we met your dad, though, so that means it's three. No, it's three. We'll get it. You can meet him if you want. Done. Done, done, done. He would love you. Aw. He's super enthusiastic. I'm sure he'd be awesome. He likes enthusiastic people. Is that where you get it from?

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Where'd you go up? Oh, just the eastern suburbs, mostly. Yeah. North – So you didn't grow up on the finish line? No. Moved down for the boy for what was meant to be a two-year business that he was going to open and flip. Was he? Didn't happen. No. No. What was it like moving down here? Because I can't remember what I was talking about, but I don't think I could move away from the peninsula now. I'm upset. I love this place. I had a huge – this is going to sound really weird, but a culture shock.

Yeah. It's so white. Yeah. And the school I grew up in, I was literally one of two white girls in my U-level. Really? That's amazing. So it was really – I got so used to that, and I'm like, "Where's my Asian grocery store?" Yeah. And I can't just, yeah, buy the spices I want at the supermarket anymore. Yeah. And everyone's subtly racist. So that took a while. Unintentionally subtly racist, right? Oh, completely. Hopefully. Completely. Completely. Not on purpose, I'm sure. Yeah. It's just the reality of when you don't know something, you tend to make assumptions, hey?

Yeah, true. True. So what got you into – so apart from wanting to be dead in Canberra, what got you into doing communications at uni? Yeah. Oh, probably – I would have loved to be a journalist, but that's a dying career, and this is probably the next best thing. Yeah. Because I am effectively – I'm just finding really interesting people and interviewing them. I'm just like a scientist-journalist, except, yeah, a bit more strategic stuff, which is also interesting. So it's a bit broader than journalism in that sense. It's quite fun. Yeah. Why is journalism dying? That's a complicated question.

Yeah, it is. Oh, there's so many reasons. Society has a bit of a distrust of authority, I guess. Yeah. That's part of it. So journalism – as the advertising landscape has changed, mainstream media hasn't adapted fast enough, and so therefore they started losing money, and instead of trying to change their model, they went into a system of just cutting back and trying to do more with less. Yeah. And that resulted in poorer journalism, which resulted in people not wanting to pay for it. Yeah. And then there's a social media element in there as well. Yeah. I kind of hate myself and love my job.

I'm contributing to this problem in a way, but – Yeah. So your job wouldn't really have existed ten years ago. What do you do now? It did not. No. Which is pretty cool. What was the steps from your communications degree to where you are now? Talk me through the different things you've done, because you've done some cool stuff. Yeah. So when I was in uni, I worked on film sets a bit. In production, kind of more management side of things, which I kind of hated. Event management, all that stuff I hate. And then I went into a not-for-profit down here, which was awesome.

Still is awesome. I'm still part of it. Awesome. Just as a volunteer, it's called Community Caring, and the program I'm still involved in is called Coach. And you basically come alongside an at-risk person. Yeah. In my case, I did youth coach, so an at-risk youth person, and just be there with them. And it's amazing. I still remember the day I asked this girl I've been with for, gosh, like five, six years. Yeah. And we were playing, I don't know what we were playing, I was like, "If you won the lottery tomorrow, what would you do?" And she couldn't answer it for the longest time.

Sorry. She couldn't answer it for the longest time. And then when she did answer it, she said, "I would travel to Shepparton," or something. And that was her big dream. And it's because when you're growing up in a really dysfunctional family situation, that part of your brain, the imagination and the ability to dream, I guess, completely gets shut off. And it's pretty sad. It is sad. It is sad. And that's where having someone else to help you kind of show you something else. I took her to the Shocking Centre for the first time, and I took her to all these things for the first time.

Wow. And it's really cool to see how, oh, I mean, she's choosing her own things, and she's doing, like, you know, but I'm there. So when things go wrong. Not everyone's that lucky to have a mentor like you to look up to. Oh, I wouldn't say she looks up to me. I bet you she does. I'm the emergency card when things go pear-shaped. It's pretty crazy how, like, that can be someone's normal, or that can be someone's, like, world where going to Shepparton's a big deal. Yeah. Like, sure, like, nice place, but... But, yeah, that was her winning the lottery.

That's my big thing I could do. Yeah. Going on a road trip. What would you do if you won the lottery? Oh, gosh. Well, I'd never invented it in the first place, because it's so stupid. But I guess if I won it, I would, um, damn, I wouldn't tell anyone. Yeah. And then, um, yeah, just make investments in things and then kind of... Keep living your life. Well, help people out, I was thinking, like, do things, but just on the quiet. Yeah. Maybe make a trust, actually. That might be the best way to do it. Make a trust, and then you can...

Because part of my working in the non-profit is applying for grants and all that kind of stuff, and if you can make a difference that way, it'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Definitely. Makes a lot of better plays, really simply. I wouldn't know work or anything, like, gosh, I like working. Then the world would have no science memes. Yeah, references to Fallout. Yeah, computer games. Give me so many, like, tell me that fun fact. What did you post about today? Oh, um, okay, so today... Before I forget. Yeah, okay, I posted today, I kind of made a reference to a computer game, Fallout, which is pretty popular.

I'm a bit of a loser. I like computers, which is why this... Why does that mean you're a loser? Well, ugh, um, it's, I'm kind of in a perfect job. Hey, that didn't exist 10 years ago because it combines computers with, um, communication, my two favourite things. And, um, anyway, so, Chernobyl, right? We all know Chernobyl, um, uh, had the equivalent of 400 atomic bombs drop on it, um, in a fallout, effectively. Um, and that meant people left, 30 kilometre radius from the area for the past half a century almost coming up. And, um, basically what's happened is now it's starting to get a bit safer.

Um, researchers have been going in and stuff and there were all these, um, rumours about this giant pack of wolves living there. Um, they're quite endangered, um, and everyone's like, "Oh, you know, there's apparently this pack of wolves." And so, yeah, researchers have gone in and they've found that, yeah, all these endangered species, in spite of the fact that they are battling, you know, some, um, you know, maybe you'll have more stillbirths, for example, out of a litter of puppies. But, they're actually, the impact of 400 atomic bombs on their survival is less than having people live there.

Because they're actually thriving. Which is so depressing. Yeah, so nuclear warfare is better for the Earth than humans. Well, if we all went, if we all disappeared, things would be ticking along alright. But, you know, there's an option we can, you know, kind of find a middle ground, hopefully. How do you find out stuff like that each day and then carry on living your life? What do you mean? I've known that fact for quite a while, actually. Yeah, but like, you keep rolling through new things, right? Yeah, every day. Does it make you optimistic or pessimistic for the future?

Oh, super excited. Because it's like, oh, it's just like fun that every day you learn something new and then you're like, "Oh, what's going to be next?" And, yeah, it's fun. Like, I thought this one the other day was, there's an exoplanet, like a planet outside of our solar system called Kepler AB 13. And it has a different sun and it rotates around the sun kind of like how our moon rotates around Earth. So it's got like one side always facing the sun, one side not. And on the side that's not facing the sun, it snows sunscreen.

So you'd probably have to go… Genuinely snows sunscreen. Yeah, you'd have to go the titanium oxide. So you'd go to that side, put it on your sunscreen, run over to the hot side and then burn to death, actually. You wouldn't survive. But anyway, how weird is that? That is very weird. Anyway, I don't know. That is crazy weird. Yeah, things are fun. Yeah, life's fun. Yeah, right? There's so much good stuff. There's so much we don't know about it. That's kind of the cool thing. There's like, like every time I see you, you seem to throw a couple more facts at me.

But there's still so much that we don't know. Oh, for sure. Well, the big thing, the big thing for me, the goal is to not just throw a fact. When I throw them at you, I don't care. But in my job, my thing isn't to just throw a fact at someone. Partly is that it's educate but also influence change, right? And so to do that, you need to kind of have a bit of a story arc. What's, you know, there's different ways of calling it, dramatic arc or story arc. And if I do that effectively, people should feel distressed and then empathetic.

So they get, I think it's, man, I didn't do much in biology, but like, I think it's cortisol and oxytocin. But anyway, so then they, the reaction and the more oxytocin someone has, the more likely they are to be empathetic too. And then, like, respond to your story. So if I'm talking about climate change or something, I have to find a way to do it to get the audience to a point where they're going to see it as something they feel empathetic towards. And then that influences behavioural change. That's interesting. Yeah. So a lot of my job is kind of psychology in the sense that I need to understand a person's motivation.

Yeah. So in general public, so I do a lot of sentiment surveys. I like data. So I like sentiment surveys. We are two very different people. I look through all of the, social media is awful and amazing, awful for you and amazing for me, because it captures everything. So I can look through all the content I've produced and what worked, what didn't, and kind of work out why. And figure out what to do next. And then figure out what to do next to get my message across. So what, which part of it's more important? Because I guess it's really easy for a lot of people just to throw stuff out there.

Like people that are trying to reduce change to just throw stuff out there. Oh, it's oversaturated. Yeah. Aren't we? It's, it's, oh, there's this really old statistic and it's completely off now. But back when there wasn't social media, it was something already like you would see, oh, like 400 pieces of content every day. Yeah. And that's before social media. That's before social media. It's ridiculous. Thousands and thousands and thousands. I haven't seen a study. It'd be a stupid number. Yeah. What, so what do you think, what's your kind of tact for getting your messages out there and getting people to actually change their behavior?

Get the hook. Is it just the hook and then? Well, I think that the key is to get that motivation. So what motivates them? Yeah. And then when you know what motivates them and what interests them, you can use those two facts to kind of. Manipulate people. Well, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Manipulation isn't necessarily, I mean, we have negative connotation for it, but that's literally it's influence. You could say manipulate or influence. It's the same, same thing. So after the non-profit or after you moved on to non-profit, you obviously kept doing it, what was next? Yeah, so I went to Peninsula Health then.

Yeah. In fundraising and then, so I learned a lot about fundraising and then moved into social media. That's when I first got into social media and then ended up in charge of the media and communications for Peninsula Health. So that's like 13 sites plus two hospitals. Yeah. So it was more issues management, strategic, content creation kind of stuff. Yeah. So fun. So interesting. Why was it fun? Oh. Which part of it is fun? Oh, okay. So it's not fun when someone like writes to you and says, "I missed the passing of my father because I couldn't get a car park."

And I know the reason. And I know the reason is something that our hospital, we're hamstrung and we can't fix, for example, and it's actually a government problem, but we can't say that because the government gives us money. So, you know, it's a very complicated place to be, right? But then I would be like, "Okay, I need to write a story. I'm going to go talk to a first year surgeon and ask them about the first time they had to tell someone that their loved one had died and what that experience was like and how they deal with death."

So interesting. That's interesting. Right? Yeah. And that's where you've got to, like, you're given a sort of assignment perhaps from the CEO or something, "I need money for this and I want you to tell stories about this." And then that's what I enjoy. It's like a puzzle. I've got to work out a way to do that. Best to it. Yeah. So if we're, say, we want to share a story on, say, broccoli lattes, what would be the best way to do it? Oh, no, no, no. See, there, that was the hook that I made. The beginning of that story was, "Farmers have a new revenue stream potential."

And it was going to go in The Weekly, which is a regional newspaper. Sure would grab a lot of people's attention. Oh, yeah. And, yeah, the audience initially was for farmers. And so I said, "Oh, let's do something more with this." And broccoli lattes came out of that. It's not meant to be used in lattes. It worked. But it was a… I got German Playboy asking me for photos and information, so I know I've made it in my job when sexy… For those that are living under a rock, CSIRO developed what? Broccoli powder, right? Yeah, out of waste product effective.

Well, not waste product, but what we would call waste… Yeah, food loss, which is, yeah, the parts of the broccoli that wouldn't go to the supermarket. The stem, ugly broccoli, yeah. Not all broccoli is created equal, unfortunately. It's so sad for the broccoli. Poor broccoli. Yeah, no, food waste is a huge problem in Australia, and it's… So CSIRO's whole vision is to kind of stop it at the source. So, I mean, I know people are quite aware of, like, "Oh, in my garden, I need to, you know, have compost bin and stuff." That's great, but

the much bigger impact will be if we know to produce the right amount at the start, just in terms of your carbon footprint and, you know, the energy. So, for guys that don't know much about CSIRO, what is the role or what's the intention of the CSIRO? Oh, gosh. What's its job? Like, overarching… There's, like, 20 points. Yeah, load up. Every day I'm there, I learn about a new area that we work in that I didn't know. And the same with people who are there 10 years. About 5,000 staff around Australia, it's not… Yeah, it's, like, that was the same as Credential Health.

But it's more just the breadth of kind of work we do. It's so broad. But basically, it's to make… solve problems to make a better future. I guess you're using science. That's a broad statement. Gee, I'm turning into a… Oh, dear. There's nothing wrong with having that broad statement, because then each of the different areas are going to delve into one specific thing. Well, yeah, I've been… we have a new director and I've been helping with that, because strategic kind of communications is where I get off. So I've been helping kind of distill a lot of messages into something straightforward.

Well, it's been the hardest part about that, about taking the complicated stuff and turning it simple. So that in itself isn't difficult. It's the managing of people that is quite complicated. So internal politics is something. So you need to have a bit of a high EQ in an organisation like mine, because a lot of… I think there is a statistic, but it's something like we have a lot of people who may have super high IQs, but we have a lot of people with mental health conditions, autism, things like that, that might mean that you've got to be a bit more… Not able to communicate those things.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then you have a lot of arseholes who are like old scientists. There's this old scientist kind of vibe where they… little girl and also what's the other one? They actually have disdain for the public, and they don't want the public to know their important information, because it's too important for them. So there's a lot of… People should just trust me. I was so egotistical. That's academia, it's not just science, I think. What's it like being in that environment as someone that's communicating all of the good stuff they're doing, but doing it through all the shit?

What's it like being in that environment? It can be pretty exhausting, but I think the… it's just about manipulating people, right? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So I just have to work out their motivations when I'm talking to them. Yeah, and then kind of come to a compromise to make sure that they're happy. So it's like… Sometimes I lose. Sometimes a great story gets missed, because they won't get it across the line, but… Do you have a favourite story or a most profound story that you've been able to get out there and… I mean, in terms of results, the broccoli latte certainly was our best performer.

It's one of the best stories they've had since I've been there, in terms of they had people trying to buy the IP from America, and they had like five major food producers contact wanting the product. So because CSIRO creates problems and then we commercialise them so that we can get money so that we can still, you know, like, yeah… Where does the funding come from? Probably about 40%, yeah, government's probably about 60%. Yeah, and then 40% is just… Our own IP, yeah. But because the reality is not everything we do is going to be something we can sell.

Like, climate science isn't something we can sell. I'm really interested to see or hear where you think the world's going with climate change and stuff, because obviously there's Trump kind of backflipping on all the US stuff, and where's it going from a scientific standpoint? From a scientific standpoint, it hasn't changed for 30 odd years. Yeah, but obviously the political standpoint and the, I guess, understanding and the backlash and things like that. Well, that's where I see our job is, our being, the communications team job more vital than any other time. So because scientists, facts don't change people's opinions.

They don't. Why not? It should. Is there an evolutionary reason why that's the case? Yes, there is. Talk to me. No, I can't remember the details, but I do want to give you half a story. But there is. But no, what I will tell you is a different one. A study where they got people with a really strong opinion. In that case, they got people who thought vaccines cause autism. Something clearly proven wrong, the guy made it up, whatever. But, and they got these two groups, so people who were like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely cause autism."

Those who were like, "Well, obviously not." And then they told each group, "Well, actually, we found new evidence to support your argument." And their response was, "I knew it." You know, "Yeah, absolutely." And then if they said, "Actually, we found some evidence that disproves what you think." And they're like, "Well, I don't believe you. Not true." And actually polarized them and made them even further apart in their opinions. What they found worked very well was to find a common ground. So you've got to find where people, so they found they didn't mention autism. They would just talk about diseases that you want to protect your kid from.

Because really what's the root of it? All these people want their children to be safe, right? And so they frame the conversation around that, around common ground. And if people have common ground, they very, very rarely will fight. And so from where I think people have failed from, scientists, communicators, perhaps, have failed in this climate change debate, is that they've just been jumping up and down saying, "But this is the facts! This is the facts!" And it's like, "No." No one cares. Well, why are these people freaked out about it? What are they worried about? And why didn't this issue happen?

I was speaking to Paul Cromwell, one of our senior scientists, about he does work in the ozone layer. Yep. Fun fact, it's never had an ozone hole over Australia. That's a myth. Really? Yeah. Do you know why we get so sunburnt? Why? Our air quality is awesome. So radiation doesn't bounce off. So there's less stuff in between. Yeah. There you go. Anyway, well, I was talking to him when he told me this fun fact. That's crazy. But also, I was like, "Well, so when we discovered the ozone hole, governments around the world acted and it was really easy, right?

And so why hasn't that happened this time?" And it tends to be that, well, partly we've got to change culture. Authority is no longer who we look to for advice. We've got a mum blog that says that, you know? Oh, no, that's sometimes crazy. Just eat almonds all day and then you'll raise your IQ 10% or something. I don't know. Really? Yeah. I told you, so it's true. Oh, cool. I'm a scientist. You had it here first. Almonds, almonds, almonds. But anyway, yeah, so it's the big challenge and the big way we can solve it is by finding that common ground.

Yeah. And that's something that's really difficult to do because we have such disparate communication channels and we have such strong echo chambers within social media. Because we only follow the people that we agree with, mostly. Absolutely. It's highly dangerous. Extremely dangerous. And we only consume the media of the people that we agree with, usually. Yeah. And we're not actually in a position to be told we're wrong very often. Absolutely. What are the... Confirmation. Yeah, confirmation bias, right? Mm-hmm. One of the guys sent me a message yesterday saying, "I've seen Brutus merch everywhere." I'm like, "No, you're not.

You've seen it probably three times in maybe a couple of months." I bought a yellow car. Yeah. It's like, you've seen it a couple of times in a couple of months, but when you see it, you think about it, right? You don't notice all the people in Puma stuff. Now, the same thing when you're buying your car, right? Yeah. What are the... Are there a couple of... I don't want to give you a number, because feel free to load up on it, but there are a couple of science facts or science misfacts or mistruths that people believe are true, majority of people believe are true, that you just know?

Well, the climate one's a big one. Yeah. Where we're just all in our team, just roll our eyes. Part of me just goes, "Surely, that's too obvious. People are just taking the piss." Oh, no, no, no. We have... Actually, I really love the conspiracy theorists when they come on board. I'm so happy. It's so fun to just read them. Oh, my gosh. We had... And they're persistent. Those are the ones like the flat earthers and the, "I survived mercury poisoning because I ate kumquats," and we get all sorts of stuff and it's banned. Word of the day, kumquat.

Go eat one. You'll solve your mercury poisoning problem. Yeah. I don't know. I would say there's a big ones like climate and flat earth and vaccines and autism. Chemtrails, vaccines. Chemtrails. The flu vaccine is actually one that's a bit more contentious. People are less clear, I think. Yeah. Even though it's the flu, just get a vaccine and you might feel sick for a day, but you know what that means? It means your body's reacting to it and it's fighting it, which is a good sign. Yeah. The more you react, probably the better you're going and the less likely you are to get the vaccine.

Yeah. Sorry. I'm just debriefing all of my anxieties from work. No. What else you got? Throw them out. I find those ones really interesting because, again, the people that are listening are probably the ones that are frustrated at chemtrails and to talk about that there isn't global warming or climate change and all of those different things. We're just talking to our own echo chamber, so we're talking about echo chambers to our own echo chamber. Yeah. There's so many little things that people just pick aside and stay on it. Absolutely. Yeah. And it takes a lot for them ...

It takes a really, I think, a brave person to change their opinion. Yeah. It is an evolutionary thing that you have to stick with what you think. Yeah. It was really hard to change that, and so then, yeah, I don't know. What are the things that help us change our opinions? Is it self-awareness? Is it introspection? Is it- Oh, so many things. Is it self-imposition to actually hear the other side of the story? Oh, empathy's massive. Yeah. If it's coming from an external source. For example, if someone tells you, "Oh, you're always doing this," and, "Stop doing that."

Yeah. Depending on your personality, that might or might not work, but also, more importantly, how you empathize with them will impact how much ... "I don't care if I do that. It might be annoying you, but that's not my problem," well, then you're not going to change. You're going to find a way to bridge that gap like you said before, and have that common ground that people can get around. Absolutely. Yeah. So, where do you see your role going over the next couple of years? Will it change, or will you just keep- In terms of social media?

Yeah. Social media. As a platform. Or what you want to be doing. Oh. That's a good question. Go social media as a platform. Okay. So, social media as a platform, something that I've brought in or championed pretty strongly from a strategic perspective is to be agile and constantly moving, and so we need to be really ... Facebook, for example, we would regularly hit two million reach or whatever. Yeah. And Facebook changed its algorithm this year. I don't know if you have a business page to deal with. Yeah. I do. I do, and it hurt a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. And they just keep ... They do this. I've had it happen. I'm doing it for years. But the reality is the audience is changing and they're leaving Facebook. Yeah. The demographics changed significantly. It's mostly people over 25 to 55. In fact, 55 plus is probably one of your largest- Really? Yeah. Engaged audiences. Yeah. Which influences ... How people engage is going to influence what they see in their algorithm. Yeah. But yeah, so people are changing for different platforms. Personally, I think there'll be something new. I don't think Instagram ... They're trying. That's also owned by Facebook.

Well, Facebook are just bringing in all the ad spend stuff and all the business stuff to Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. So it's going to be exactly the same. Oh, absolutely. So it's just a constantly moving thing. I think there's a lot of drive for people to have a platform that's sequential. Yeah. Rather than algorithmic. But yeah, so from a business perspective, I'm really strong on EDMs, which is like direct mail. Well, it's weekly wrap. Yeah. Yeah. Straight up. Gotcha. Because- You know what you're going to get. You know what you're going to get. Yeah. So I'm trying to ...

We have a various ... We've never really focused on that as an organization. So I'm bringing that in a lot because it's something that won't change. Personally, where I see myself in three, five years, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I really like that. Just doing cool shit. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back a little bit. How has it all changed since you've been ... How long have you been in this role for? A year and a half. A year and a half. How much has it changed in a year and a half?

Because I kind of would have been like, not even 12 months where I kind of properly started jumping on Facebook and doing my ad spend and doing targeted campaigns and all of those kind of things. And it's changed. In the last nine months it's changed a stupid amount. Changed in what way? A significant way? Just the fact that I could post something 12 months ago and not really worry about paying for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And get a decent-ish organic reach, and now I get zero. Yeah. How else has it changed? So the algorithm's adjusted a lot more to be friends than businesses.

When you post something it has to be particularly engaging, so people have to share, click, whatever. Yeah. But it can't be ... You can't share the same thing multiple times. The algorithm ... They've become very smart around ... So you probably won't know this, but when you upload a photo it scans it and it creates alt text of the image in the back end. Someone sneakily found it once, and alt text is normally used for if I had a vision impairment and I needed my screen reader to explain what the photo looked like. But there are algorithms using it to work out what to serve people, so you don't get three photos of a beach in a row, for example.

Wow. That's interesting. And it's quite complicated. There are certain words that they'll always penalize you for, like buy, win, sign up, anything that is associated with making money. Yeah. The algorithm shuts that down, tag a friend, tag a mate, that's a new one that doesn't like them anymore because people are sick of memes, I guess. Do you think it's a good thing? I think Facebook's becoming irrelevant, so I don't think it really matters. Will it, will Facebook pivot, because it's such a big entity and it's kind of taking over the world in certain aspects, will it pivot and turn to something else, or transcend its current form?

Facebook as an organization already has, so that's why they work so much on Instagram, WhatsApp. They own quite a lot of things you might not realize, and they're working hard on those things almost more so. Yeah. Yeah, they're very protectionist now, they've moved from being innovative to protectionist, so they're trying to sabotage and cannibalize any new platforms that come out. Yeah. Yeah, so it, what was the question again? I can't remember. What's social media going to look like in 10 years? Oh yeah, no, nah, I can't. Damn it, I was hoping you'd throw me an idea and make some money on Facebook.

I remember I went to a Myspace free movie ticket night, and then Murdoch bought it, and suddenly Facebook appeared, and Myspace was dead, you know? And it's just like, it moves so fast. Yeah. But, like, no companies have, have companies had a monopoly like Facebook do now? Like, obviously it's got Facebook and Google, but on social media, Facebook kind of have a majority. Yeah, Reddit doesn't have much. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because, like, so if you look at it from a media perspective, Murdoch and Packer probably did come, it was probably a duopoly rather than

a monopoly, but certainly they, they came pretty, there was, there were laws to stop them from getting this big, which have changed now, but yeah, no, nothing like this has ever happened before, and we're still seeing the effects, but from a personal perspective, like, there's a lot of psychologists doing studies on how it's affecting our minds and behaviour and attention spans and, and opinions of ourselves, like, some pretty obvious ones around, you know, if I'm seeing everyone's best version of themselves online and no one else seems to have a bad day, I must be wrong for having a bad day.

Yeah. Yeah. Which, like, I guess for, I don't know, I don't feel like things like that affect me much being like a little bit older and I guess a little bit more established in what I'm doing and stuff like that, but then you look at kids that are born from say 2005 onwards where the only world they know is social media and iPhones and likes and hashtags and all that kind of stuff, and you wonder how, I guess, aware they are of, or they're going to be in 10 years, or in 20 years when you've got two generations coming through that are just dealing with all that.

Yeah. Well, we're the internet generation, aren't we? Yeah. Yeah. I remember when internet first existed, well, not first existed, but first became accessible to the general public in the 90s, and now it's like, yeah. There's like six devices in this room. Six arrow created Wi-Fi and then it all went wrong. It's all our fault. Tell me about that story. Oh, it's a really depressing story. At least the facts. Well, okay, the facts are that scientists around the world have created different components, I guess. The way you'd think of it is if you had a linear, like a, oh gosh, I'm using my hands and I'm talking on a prioritize.

That's all right. I was going to explain what you were doing anyway. No, just that it was the final piece of a big puzzle that had mostly been completed by the scientists, and then we accidentally found the final bit of that puzzle. And then, literally. What were we looking for when we found it? Because it was something to do with space. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember what? No, I can't. Because I'm racking my brain at the moment. I can't remember what it is. I can't remember. That's all right. Not important. Just Google it, guys. Yeah.

We live in a world where you can do that now. But this is the other thing, I think, the rise of the internet. And I was reading an article recently around how it's impacting and creating more of a, how would I put it, so polarizing the rich and the poor, right? So more of a gap. So to the girl that I hang out with, for example, no internet at home, struggled to get a computer. Suddenly, she has to have more motivation than all the other kids. She's already not motivated because of her family situation to do her homework, or any of her work to pass.

She has to go find the library, she has to walk 30 minutes to the library or something. Suddenly, she's at even more of a disadvantage than she already was. And then, I was reading this article in Africa, actually, one of the biggest issues is they're having a second kind of... And this happened with the advent of probably the Andor and printing, for example, in Russia, when you had the Russian Revolution got rid of the Tsar, it was quite clearly a tribute. One of the main factors was the railroad coming through and more information being spread. And people were saying, "Oh, life in the city looks better."

And then they went to the city, and then it became worse because it's overpopulated. And that's all happening again in Africa. So people, there's more people with access to a phone than clean water in Africa right now. Wow. So people were saying, "Oh, life in the city is great." So they were all migrating. So you're getting this huge influx of economic migrants that cities and places can't support. And yeah, it's a huge issue. If you had a magic wand, how would you fix the world or the main problems in the world? There's too many. Yeah. What would you get first?

Yeah. What would you go first? Oh. Maybe a cross between malaria or clean water, those kinds of things are pretty big, big diaries of massive cause of death. Yeah. Have you had any thought processes around universal basic income? Have you talked to Sam about this? No, I haven't. He's obsessed. I haven't actually. Well, it didn't really work in, was it Sweden, I think, just tried it out and stopped it. Did they? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I don't know. I think we've become more reliant on computers and machines and stuff to like, we're automating basically as many things as possible that you asked me before, if I'm automating a bunch of my business stuff.

I'm trying. Trying. And then goodbye to your accountant, suddenly. Sorry. And then goodbye to your accountant. Sorry. Not your accountant. Well, this is the biggest challenge I faced when I was working in finance, which was after Peninsular Health. Oh, yeah. That's what we were talking about. Oh, yeah. Back then. Back in those days. Yeah, no, so I worked for quite a large finance organisation in the city and basically they were working hard to become a one-stop shop for people and the way they could do that economically for themselves was to just- Go online. Make it all- Go on the cloud.

Well, not even the cloud, but they created this whole suite of software that, yeah, made everything a lot more straightforward. But, yeah, it did mean death of the middle man and- Probably a good thing. Well, yeah, except then when you think about people who not everyone is able to be, so for example, law. Yeah. So there's a computer IBM created, I can't remember its name, but they've created a computer that can basically do the job of most paralegals or most beginning lawyers and so the traditional structure of how you become a top lawyer is you do all this groundwork for ages and grant work and then you work your way up.

Now there's a computer to do that first whole section, how do they get to the point where they can go up? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and so they're actually automation of workforces, of the professional working force, not just the labour and that kind of stuff, it's becoming, it's around the corner. Yeah. I think, I don't know, the optimism in me sees that as overwhelming positive, right? So if we get rid of all the shitty menial, not shitty, bad choice of words, we get rid of all the menial nine to five jobs, the people just rock up, do a task, go home.

I think it allows a bigger bandwidth for people to do things that they, or at least chase the things that they love to do, in terms of like, you love your job, I'm very lucky to love my job, Sam loves his job, like we're able to kind of create the environment that we live in. I think a lot of people are stuck in that job or situation where they can't necessarily change it. Yeah. I think it could be a cool progression or transcendence of our normal regular everyday lives if we're actually able to, you know, get rid of a bunch of jobs as long as it's replaced with something.

Yeah. Because that's kind of the million dollar question, right, what do you actually replace it with? But yeah, I can't wait to have that conversation with Sam now. He will talk your ear off about it, he's very interested in it, but I just see it as like, we're so much busier now than we used to be, even though we have more convenience than ever before, right? Yeah. And so I think every time we, I'm not saying it's in the negative, I'm just saying that I think the reality will be that we're going to have unforeseeable problems that we need to.

Yeah. And if you believe Stephen Hawking's last thing, AI may kill us all yet. Neural networks. Yeah. Dangerous thing. Yeah, let's not talk about AI, it just freaks me out. I was talking to some of our computer scientists, like the neural networking systems, and they're using it a lot for, for example, space exploration, and we now have telescopes that can get thousands of gigabytes of data every minute, literally, like, like, impossible. What's the stat? Like, we get more, more data is added to the internet every, like, two days now than the rest, like, the whole, the whole past?

Yeah, there's something like, there's something like YouTube as well, yeah. Oh, YouTube, yeah. YouTube has more videos than anyone could watch in history. Something ridiculous like that. I don't know it. What? It's stupid. So, the computer science is like, I guess it depends on the person, but are they tentatively optimistic or are they, like, well, we're going to die? Depends. Depends on the person? Oh, it absolutely depends. It depends on what part of it they're working in, hey. If you talk to someone who's doing this- Give me a really simple answer, mate. I know, right? I've been working with scientists too long.

You can't have a straightforward answer for a scientist. Our interns get really annoyed at us because they're like, what about this, what about this? Like, with, like, just exercise, right? Yeah. And it's like, I'm like, this depends. Depends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Context is keen. Yeah. With all these kind of things. So, it depends. Like, it's so secret of saying it depends. Yeah. So, now they'll just, like, ask us questions. Oh, it depends, doesn't it? Well, yeah, it does, but here are the parameters we know and we can work with. Most likely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You seem like an optimist.

Like, everything will be sweet. Everything will be different. Yeah, everything will be different. Just adapt. Yeah. What's the evolutionary law? Adapt, change, move, or die. Like, that's basically our options. Move, adapt, or die. Yeah. Or just be like, Bear Grylls, adapt, improvise, overcome, or whatever his are. I don't know. All I can think about is- Too much pop culture. When he eats his honey and it's a small price to pay in his life. I don't know. I don't know. What's your, like, if someone asks you what's your favorite fun fact, because I'm sure you get asked all the time.

Surely. I don't. No? I don't get asked that. I don't get asked that. I don't get asked that. I just tell people them, "I'm too excited, I can't wait to be asked a question." Because I remember when I first found out about your job, I was just like, "What about this? What about this?" What's your go-to couple of fun facts that you tell people? Okay. Just get you more excited than any others. Get me excited personally, so I'm quite into animals, right? So my facts tend to be about animals. Yeah. If I was to just pick one really cool fact that I've learned since these areas, it's just about Australian birds, songbirds and parrots.

We're some of the most amazing, intelligent birds on the planet. It's just insane. And they all originated in Australia. All the songbirds around the world came from us. Really? Yeah. When we were part of Gondwana, we were on the East and they all came from us and you'll find a lot of South American birds. There's a lot of similarities because we were all together once. And then Australia being so harsh and extreme and missing out on the asteroid meant that all our stuff didn't die when most of the animals around the world died. Yeah. We have some pretty ancient animals that have had longer to learn, to evolve, not learn.

Well, although a lot of the birds learn, which is part of the reason why they're so intelligent. Yeah. They live a lot longer than birds are anywhere else because they have to learn how to survive in our crazy environment. Yeah. What's the measurement or the scale for intelligence in animals? Is it ability to communicate? They have a bunch of tests. Yeah. Yeah. And different tests will kind of determine, but the reality is like, we know nothing. Yeah. Like bumblebees. Bumblebees. They did an experiment called bumblebees. Sorry, I'm just shouting words at you. Bumblebees. Bumblebees, they did an experiment the other way.

It's such a cool little video. Have you ever seen a bumblebee? They're like these giant fluff balls. They're adorable. Yeah. They're just flying like a completely random pattern, just like hanging out. They're just real slow and adorable. Anyway, what they found, they taught a bumblebee to put a ball in the middle of a target and then it would get sugar. And then they brought a second bumblebee in. The second bumblebee was taught from the first bumblebee how to do it and in fact improved upon how the skill set to do it. That's amazing. There's a bumblebees.

They live like a few weeks or some shit. Like that's insane. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I think there's a lot more like than chilies actually. I wrote this fact today. So chilies have a chemical in them that makes them really hot, right? And the reason they have that chemical or the reason that chemical is propagated through it. Is it a chemical capsaicin? It is. It is. Yes. The reason they have that is because if they are predated on by mammals, you know, we don't travel as far and our digestive tract is quite different.

And so we usually kill the seeds in the process and we don't spread the plant. Birds do not have the same pain receptors, do not taste anything hot in that plant. So they gobble it all up and fly heaps far away and they're real short track and so they. Those birds, number one and number two are the same hole. Yeah. Another fun fact. Do you know what? What about monotremes? Oh what? Good old monotremes. Our Australian beautiful special ones. So platypus, echidnaes. They're called monotremes because they have one hole for everything. They produce, yeah monotremes are extra weird.

They're just like some amazing thing. But anyway. What else you got? Keep them coming. I love this stuff. I love this so much. Yeah, no monotremes. Oh gosh. I could talk about them for a while. Kangaroos is also weird. They're different. Marsupials. So they have. They're one of the few animals that can decide when to become pregnant. Really? Yeah. So the female will. Decide as in decide when to put out or just decide? No, no. Decide as in they'll have sperm and they'll have an egg that's been, you know, I don't know whatever the term is, but they'll stop its gestation so it'll just stay in that infant level.

When they're ready they're like okay become a little jelly bean and then this tiny little jelly bean crawls up into the pouch. Have you ever, like they're these tiny little things like this big and they're like a jelly bean and then they have four teats in the pouch and they can have different milk coming out of each teat depending on different stages. So they might have a joey that's out of the pouch but come occasionally for a bit of milk. With his little brother hanging out. And his little brother will have one type. Jelly bean,

jelly bean will get one type of milk that he needs for that stage of life and the other one will get a different type of milk from a different teat. That's amazing. And why? I don't, like how? It's incredible. They found a lot of amazing proteins actually in monitoring so platypus and echidnas because they are kind of between mammals and so they don't have, they produce milk but they don't have nipples. Just have these patches on their skin. I'm sorry. I apologize. Don't apologize. Keep going. So they have these patches on their skin where they secrete milk and the kind of the little jelly beans like just suck it up right.

What we actually since I found recently with I think it was, I can't remember but with a uni was because that milk's just sitting there on there it's a lot less hygienic right than a nipple. That's the reason why you would have a nipple because it's not just sitting on a surface. And yeah as a result the milk has these crazy whack proteins in them and they're super good at killing bad buds. And so we're looking at, we've synthesized it and we're working out how to wait because super bugs are a big issue right. Yeah.

Do you think all of the cures for all of the super bugs and diseases we face as humans, do you think they're all out there somewhere? Yeah. Yeah. But I'll put it in perspective right. I was talking to a scientist who's studying Spider-Man, Sam she was so cool. And she, so each venom, she's only studying Australian spiders, there's many many spiders we've never even discovered yet right. Yeah. And this is the argument for biodiversity and protection of animals. Each venom has like hundreds of peptides, I can't remember the term, but basically every single animal's venom, like spider venom, will have like thousands and thousands of different bits to study.

And each part might be a cure for malaria, might be a cure for you know because spiders are really good at killing insects, well insects not mammals, they're actually a really good one to study because they don't kill mammals traditionally and snakes and stuff are a bit more. So they're really good at killing insects and obviously albix, the most dangerous animal in the world is an insect, it's a mosquito so. Is it the most dangerous because it kills the most people? Yeah. Yeah. That's so heavy. Yeah. And is it the mosquitoes killing people, is it the pathogens that they carry around?

Yeah yeah yeah. It's things that carry around. So it's just because they don't carry it right? Yeah. It's, yeah. I'd much rather die like a line attack or something, way cooler. It would be cooler. It would be. What a way to go. Oh gosh. Just get your face munched up. Well I have a brother who lives in Kenya and before then he was living in Malawi which is this tiny little country and they have the fastest snake in the world there. Really? They're faster than people. Yeah. And so I was like imagine if you get killed and it's one of the most deadly snakes in the world too.

Woo! That's a great mix. Have you heard of a running spider in Australia? No. Yeah. I did just because I was interested, I googled a picture of a baby platypus. Oh! And it looks like a jelly bean? A gross jelly bean. Whatever you're doing guys, stop what you're doing and pull over, google baby platypus, they are the coolest thing. Or a puggle. A small echidna, they're called puggles and they look like that character from that fantastic beat. Oh no yeah yeah you gotta. Puggle echidna. Yeah. Look at them, they look gross. They are so weird. I know this is not a visual podcast yet.

They develop their spines later on. But this is amazing. Because they're in a pouch. They'll spike up. They look so freaky. They kind of look, if you want to describe it, I guess there's a character from that Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them Harry Potter thing. Yes. Ah that's what they got it from. They look like that thing. Yeah nice. I forgot what we were talking about. Animals. I could talk about animals forever. Here's a question for you, and I know we didn't say what we were talking about, but we were talking about Common Folk.

Yeah. What was it like, I guess, being on the support network side of Common Folk as it was starting. Because I guess it's something that me being in amongst Virtus and everything that's happening, like I try and think about what it's like for KP to be in that position. So what's it been for you to be in that position with Common Folk getting up and running? Yeah. Even though it was only meant to be two years. That was a discussion. No, well when we very first started it, it had been something Sam had been talking about since we met.

So it was a long time in his mind, and Sarah Dingwall, his friend who does some of the studios. Yeah. In one year, we got married, I was working three days a week at a charity. He spent a year without pay building Common Folk physically, building it. So we were surviving on my beautiful income, which was great. And then, yeah, we built it, started it and bought a house all in like 12 months. It was pretty epic and got married. That's amazing. It was a big year. It's not been that stressful, the very first week was a big one for him.

And I got to see a bit of that, but no, I just keep him in check for like checking out of work. And as it got bigger, that became harder. As smartphones became bigger, that got harder. Yeah, so I might nag him, which is probably not the right thing to do. Yeah, no, he's pretty good, actually, to be fair, at switching off. But that was something I've drilled into him as well. He's a bit out of focus. So he's definitely on the spectrum of whatever you want it, like he is. And so he has always been very good at switching on and off.

And it just got, you knew, so Ben came on and it was such perfect timing because I knew he was at a point where he was like starting to get down on himself because it was just too much for one person. You know, you can't, I don't know, what did they have, like 80 staff or something and yeah. It'd be a pretty hectic, hectic job. But I guess it's cool to be able to like now for you to be able to look back now and like surviving on your wage for a year. This is what it's quite freeing because it wasn't stressful or hard or anything.

And so we kind of were just like alright about it. So now like, we both have earning more money now and we're both kind of like, oh, well, like we don't hold money. Well, yeah, there's that. But also, no, we kind of don't. And so we're like, what money? I'm not used to this. I'm still stingy. I still hate shopping. I'm just not. I don't like shopping. So it's probably I also hate shopping. Sam likes, he likes hobbies. So he buys expensive hobby. Shit. You've got a hobby. You've got a snake. Yeah. Oh, it's a joint.

It's a joint hobby. Yeah. And that was funny, actually, because it was like one day we both were like, oh, we both like snakes. And we're both adults. And we both have our own house. We're both adults. We can do it. We can do it. And I don't have to feel bad for spending, you know, like 200 bucks raw. Does that cost for a snake? Yeah, I think so. Something about that. What kind of snake is lovely? He's pretty old. He's a wormer python. They're really cool snake. They're an Australian. There's two species of it. He's one of the subspecies.

Do they bite? Oh, yeah. He hasn't bitten Sam, I don't think, I've been bitten. It doesn't hurt. What happened when you bit him? Oh, he curled up around my arm because he's a python. I was cleaning his cage. So fair enough. I was in his, I was being a bit annoying for him and, yeah, so he just bit me. And then I just kept cleaning the cage for about an hour because it doesn't hurt really. It's more just like, it's like stepping on a prickle. It might hurt more now. He's bigger now. And then you have to put them under water.

So is that what he has to do? I did. Except it didn't work. And I was scared that I was going to drown him. Oh, no. So you'll get bitten. You worry about drowning the snake. Good. Well, yeah. Anyway. And so I didn't want to hurt him. Right. And so he, because, yeah, what you're supposed to do is put them under water and they're supposed to go, shit, I better let go because I'm drowning. Right. And then he didn't. Lumpy's like, ah, I like this. And so he's just biting him. And they've got the backwards kind of teeth, so it's like really hard to disengage.

And you can't do it with one hand yet. It's a two hand job. So I was in a dressing gown with nothing under it and I had to text a friend around the corner because Sam was working. And the moment he came over, Lumpy just decided to let go. So. Lucky. Well done, Lumpy. Crisis averted. All right. I've got a bunch of questions for you. Now, some of these aren't regular Birds podcast questions. Oh, no. Some of them are friend questions. Okay. Sam questions. Oh. Sure. I don't know. Where do they go? The easy ones first.

Can you lie? Nah. Nah. I seriously, it's actually been in my performance, like reviews. Really? With my bosses. Yeah, because like when you're a manager, you have to kind of have a bit of a poker face. Yeah. I'm shit at it. You just can't? Yeah. It's really tough. Yeah. I just think something and I'll say it. That transparency is good though, right? Well. Until you put your foot in it. Yeah. Oh, I'm also though, I don't like to upset people or hurt people, so I try to not hurt people. But also, yeah, nah. I can't lie.

It's really bad. Who are the coolest people your dad's met? Oh, it depends on who you're into, right? Just go with it. Who do you think are the coolest? Oh, well, when I was in the nineties, when it happened, when he met Alicia Silverstone, I was like. I don't know who that is. Exactly. Who that? Clueless? The movie? Oh, bless. No. 1998 prime. Oh, okay. Like Arnold Schwarzenegger. He's into. Okay. Well, that's amazing. What about all the guys from those movies? Arnold's books, right? What's the other one? Stallone. Oh. He's met all those guys. That's cool.

He was telling me the other day, actually, about how Stallone's tips for weight loss and weight gain. Really? Yeah. Because he had to gain a bunch of weight for a movie and dad asked him if it was hard to get back. And the thing he said was like, oh, I thought it would just be like, just go back to the gym and it'll be all fine. It was actually really tough and it wasn't just go to the gym, it was diet and it was so much more. Funny that. Yeah, I know, right? Who are the coolest people you've met?

Oh, I haven't met anyone that exciting. Who's the coolest person you're going to meet? Oh, David Attenborough, I hope? No, not that one. What? Well, that's cool. Oh, Dr. Carl. But yeah, I might actually meet him. So cool. Oh, okay. Yeah. I love Dr. Carl so much. Yeah. Yeah. He's amazing. I talked to him and it was like, he was in the middle of filming a commercial or something, so we couldn't talk very long. And he was just like, oh, so we set up a time to chat when he was free. And then he was like, what was your name again?

And I said, oh, Eliza Keck, K-A-C-K. I think it was loud and it was Keck, Keck, there's a Keck telescope in America. I'm like, yes, there is. Yeah. Oh. And he was like, I said, how do you know that? And he said, oh, it's my job to know things. I was like, oh. So it's kind of your job to know things now as well though, right? Oh, I hope so. Yeah. So do you want to be the female version of Dr. Kup? Nah. I want to get other people's stories out. No, I'm, I'm boring. I don't have much to say.

I just have other people's stuff to say. No. Well, yeah. Anyway. Um, but no, coming on this podcast is for me learning to be able to be the interviewee is difficult. Has it been really hard not to just like, oh, I have like 10 questions I want to ask you. Throw them at me. Do you have another hour? We'll do part two. Can I interview you? Oh shit. Yeah, sure. Oh mate. I'll get you crying. You're just going to get with the hook and then you're going to get some empathy out and then I'm going to cry.

And then I'll change your behavior and you'll. I'm uber emotional. So yeah. Oh are you? I have two emotions. Happy and angry. Oh I don't want to say angry. Angry a lot. Oh it's really common. But it's a fast burning thing. And then you're straight back out. Yeah. Yeah. I'm leaning in. I have no idea where this is going. It's a book by Cheryl Sandberg. She's a chief finance officer I think for Facebook. Yeah. Yeah. No so. So read it? Yeah. Is it good? Yeah. I've got it. It's a bit like death by information in terms of here's 500 studies proving that this.

Can you summarize it for me? Well it's basically talking about women in the workforce and so the idea is to lean into your job. And there's a certain period in which is pretty much where I'm at right now in women's career where they find that they lean out of their job for multiple reasons. Some of which are their own mindset and some of which are the workforce's. Like right now is probably the most dangerous time for me to try and get a job because anyone who interviews me is going to be thinking oh she's been married for a while doesn't have kids.

I don't want to hire her. Like they wouldn't say it but they'd think it. Yes just the logical, logical for Riley O'Reilly. The assumption. Assumption. That's what I was looking for. Yeah. But anyway. Kids on the Way. No. But anyway that book's pretty awesome. Yeah. Well she walked in and became like the an executive at I think Yahoo when in the 90s when it was a big deal. She was like six months pregnant and said no I want this job and they're like oh okay. And that's the whole argument of Lean In. That's balling. Yeah. I don't really want to ask this but I'm going to do it anyway.

This is from Sam. Ask her about the time she tugged me to a chair. No. It's not that exciting. It's really not a story to tell. Good. Carry on. Next question. Everyone can just use their imagination. I'm a lot more innocent than other people is how I'll put that story. I didn't realise connotations. That's great. That's great. Oh jeez. You throw me. That's good. What gives your life meaning and purpose? Oh that's a different question. Who do you reckon that's from? You? No. Oh. Not Sam. Oh Brooke of course. Shout out. Bless her. Bless her. She loves the things.

The feelings and the emotions. Loves those questions. Yeah. She's like a female you. Let's talk about our feelings. Yeah. Fair. How are you going today? Feeling's good. Good. Thanks. I do like asking people how they feel. Genuinely asking someone how they feel. Oh yeah. Absolutely. And reading them. My mum's a psychologist and I learnt all the. So you learnt all that stuff. What's the main cue that you see or that you look for when you raise someone? Give me one. It's stuff that most people would be aware of. It's body language generally. So it's hands over your face when you're feeling a bit embarrassed or lying or not making eye contact.

Yeah. Yeah so you've just got a closed off kind of body language. You go oh what is that about? Maybe they are someone who connects with touch and so you give them a pat on the shoulder and maybe they respond better or worse and then you know how that goes and it's just kind of working out how people. Who people are and how they react and stuff. Yeah. I love the love languages stuff. Yeah. That stuff. Do you know what Sam's love language is according to Sam? He'd say quality time. No. He made a new one.

Of course he did. He can't make a new one. And it's called teasing. He says when he teases me it's him being loving. For someone who likes words of affirmation that's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. It's complete opposite. Yeah. Anyway. Sorry. Meaning and purpose. Meaning and purpose. Damn. Two big words. I know right. And you can interpret them how you will. What gives me meaning and purpose? Probably an answer for both of them. Definitely faith is a part of it. So yeah I'm a Christian and that's a big part of my life. Yeah. Yeah. And I work with science.

You'll be surprised how many scientists are of faith. It's not a very uncommon thing at all. I've started to understand that a lot more since I guess surrounding myself with Sammy and Benny and Tommy and it's I don't know I find it really interesting. How do you describe the balance between the two? Between science. Science is just explaining. That's all science is. Trying to work things out. Yeah. It's not it's not the it's just so I guess you could put it like so a lot of Christians struggle with the idea of evolution right and it

could just be that evolution is how God made this happen like why does it it's kind of like it's the same reasoning behind like why I don't understand and cannot understand but why Christians were so scared of the world being round like how that impacted their faith now in hindsight you're like I don't even understand the correlation but I'm sure there's things like that now still and that's where yeah it's important to be a bit open and aware. When you say the term God what do you what's like paint us a picture of what you mean.

Oh um oh gosh it's too esoteric it's hard it's so many things right it's it's it's um a spiritual thing it's it's motivation it's um hard work sometimes is you know um what that what God is that's what probably why I love like ecology animals that kind of stuff whenever I'm in that situation that's really evident that this is like oh it's so cool like I don't know I just find that shit real cool and it's like someone just organized that for me thanks but not just for me for everyone and I don't know yeah

it's a driver for a lot of things I guess yeah meaning and purpose probably also my per but from a me purpose like what my purpose would be is to oh gosh why'd I set myself up with that um well helping other people is a big thing yeah yeah it's cool yeah so many people's like drive and popes can come back to simple things like that and yet you'll find so many of those people might have really opposite opinions about how to do it yeah opposite even though they have the same thing it's something I

um said to myself in primary school when two friends were fighting and they both separately came to me and told me their problem primary school it was probably something like playing foursquare or something and they actually both wanted the same thing but they explained it differently and so I I was big I was like this tall in primary school so I just grabbed them and threw them together and said you want this and so do you and then they're like oh does that really communicate coming through right but like from then I had kind of

made this fake statistic that I've always stuck with it's 90% of all problems arguments uh just miscommunication it's important to try and how do we communicate better oh um take time yeah good advice slow down yeah figure out what you actually want because that most time we're arguing about shit we don't actually know what we want well there's also the whole thing of most of the time we're arguing about shit we don't understand yeah and that's why I'm so nervous like I couldn't be a Dr Carl I don't understand the half the shit I'm talking

about yeah I understand to a certain level because I have to but um like if it's this whole phenomenon that and it's increasing in our culture so people's bias of um what they think they know and so if you you think that you know the things that you interact with every day but can you explain to me how the zipper works teeth it's like teeth that cross over each other yeah but that's and that's but this is the thing so as soon as you get people to try and explain something that they think they know

that's cool they become a lot more open to they they realize that they're um their amount of knowledge actually would have stopped and actually think you need to thought about how the zipper works right yeah but so but everyone would think inherently that they'd be able to explain it yeah so it's to do with what we think we know this is what we actually know yeah and once you kind of pair that back and make people realize that and that's how we've been wired because we have to be a society and we have to trust

you trust that super works because you trust the person who invented it yeah made it just test it out and see that it works yeah still going but also zip is probably a bad example but you trust the doctor with the ct scan and you trust those things and that's that's how we're wired the problems starts it like we talk about scope of practice in our business a lot yeah it's like a person trainer dietitian strength coach physio all have an overlapping scope of practice but they overlap one end and then they're separate on another

end so like a lot of it's understanding as a professional what our scope is and then as a um like when do you take someone from oh this is the physio thing oh i think you're ready now to go to this and something like it's there's never like it's not always black and white lines like for example we usually as soon as someone in the gym has pain go see the physio and diagnose what's going on but for many different reasons sometimes it's okay let's try this or let's some people don't want to go see

a physio so people can't afford it so that you've got to dance in all that gray and figure out how it works i think like we have i think we have a responsibility or every profession has a responsibility to know what their scope is and to be able to just like a little handball off when it's outside it um because when people argue about stuff that's outside their scope and they don't know what the fuck they're talking about yeah um which like i'm sure i've done it multiple times but i try not to yeah it's

really it's really hard that's when you have to have that take a step back and yeah and actually check what what you actually know that is noted no is true yeah check yourself good what are you grateful for i'll exercise my grateful muscle yeah oh gosh too much like i don't know how to answer that because it's too many things for my birds and snake and dog for you know my family for my job and the people in my world for the things the skills i have to be able to help others and yeah good

answer everything i'm in a country where i have health care you're a pretty fortunate part of the world hey oh yeah yeah have you done much trouble uh a bit yeah yeah quite a bit what's been your favorite place you've traveled to i lived in la as a kid for a while yeah yeah i had an accent it was awful really yeah yeah um that was but that's a fun place to grow up in because everyone's extremely pop like positive like it's a very different culture to australia yeah we're shifting tall poppy syndrome isn't a

thing there yeah it's a really australian thing yeah or english as well what do you think that is well we don't want to look like we're american stupid americans they're so up themselves and that's how you get on american idol singing and you're awful at singing and you say but my friend said i'm good like so it's fear right yeah but um just have some self-awareness and don't get get too cocky you're self-aware but it's really good but it's a good it's a good place to grow up in in that sense you know to let

kids thrive and try and is there one travel destination that you haven't been you want to go to oh like if you go to one place right now south america or it's awesome yeah i know right yeah yeah Antarctica would be um i might go there with work so that'll be just jump on a ship yeah we have a research vessel called investigation i'll carry your bags i don't know if you want to go through the um down from tasmania and it's really choppy seas i think southern seas like the the is that the kind

of thing where everyone gets cc yeah i don't get cc until you've been there oh yeah yeah you spend about three days in your room apparently yeah yeah and then it calms down and then you're in Antarctica it'll be pretty magical yeah yeah my friend from work went and said it was pretty epic flew some drones around to film the whales it was pretty cool that stuff just gets me excited yeah makes me want to travel more i shouldn't have shouldn't ask the travel questions because it makes me want to jump on a plane again

where would you go next oh good question i don't know well i think i think my next trip will be philippines kp wants to go to philippines i've been there a few times yeah it's awesome yeah my one of my closest friends from primary school is half filipino awesome so i've gone over there a lot yeah i don't know a few places to go i don't really have now now like south america like patagonia was number one matricpichu iguazu falls and like i did those so like yeah yeah they were the ones in terms of

like amazing parts of the world new zealand was one and i ticked that off yeah do you feel like you ticked these places off not not ticked them off but just it's one of my most hated phrase i've done europe yeah what the fuck you've been to getting on it thank you um i don't know i don't think i have went to japan and saw the snow that was like mind-blowing wow um i want to do europe i don't yeah yeah i don't really have one place like right now i don't have one place where

i'm like that's where i want to go yeah but i want to spend i want to spend some quality time somewhere hey yeah i like quickly i think like a six-week five six-week trips kind of perfect for me it is such a good amount of time yeah because you get longer to disconnect furthest two and a half years yeah well sam and i took our first ever like big trip last year yeah it was europe yeah six yeah six weeks i think we went seven weeks maybe yeah that was the first time that we've been

open since 2013 i'm hanging out to be able to go kp and go away for six weeks it's gonna be awesome i don't know where it'll be though maybe europe maybe us us i just want to do work stuff though too much like oh really strength conditioning go to mussel beach no different it's like the mecca of like um strength conditioning and elite sports with they're all very all the sports over there they for one there's a little bit of money in it compared to australia yeah um but there's so many teams so so many

professional teams and majority of the sports over there are all strength and power base yeah or majority yes strength and power base so you've got nfl and um and basketball and all those kind of sports are all like yeah big big big um big colleges with yeah lots of money and lots of facilities and yeah they don't pay the players but that's beside the point yeah that's a different difference he went over to america for college for sport and it was a hard slog oh it's insane it's like just yeah anyway a different argument a

different discussion of a different day yeah american schooling system whoo yeah oh i don't want to ask you the education question yeah well if you could go back to school or if you could have some impact on the curriculum what are the two subjects you'd add to it oh um i would add to it mental health first aid yeah so giving kids that kind of um stuff and certainly something vocational more vocational kind of practices but i guess that stuff is available it's just that there's a bit of a um cultural disdain of it i

guess yeah so maybe that's that's a that's a societal problem rather than the subject um yeah good too what advice would you give the 15 year old version of yourself oh nothing nothing nah just figure it out yeah just keep on keeping on keep going 15 year nine that's a good year that's fun that year i decided i had to learn a new word in a new language every week in a different so different language every week my school was very multicultural so i was able to smash it out i got a lot i can't

remember most of it and i remember some swedish and greek and russian and mandarin that's probably it that's so cool yeah south america like two months ago so i've forgotten all the spanish spanish yeah i've forgotten it all and it's different between north and south like different parts of the country yeah yeah and you say the same word two different countries and it's like completely different yeah yeah i just spit my tongue what are you most proud of oh most proud of oh i'm not very proud well that sounds up myself i can't think of

an answer though pat yourself on the back for something yeah right that's tough um probably generally just like i'm proud of like when i can get a story out that needs to get out and and pat's wouldn't have otherwise that's pretty cool yeah yeah that's a bit more generalist hey yeah but lots of little things i think there's one major thing i'm proud of cool yeah but you had about a million things you're grateful for so i'm sure you're probably yeah well this is my problem with life right sure this is my problem with life

go i looked at an old cv actually the cv for the job i'm currently in my cover letter i was brutally honest in hindsight lucky i got the job i wrote um about me and i said i'm overly enthusiastic about almost everything and that was like about me it's all but it's all like like directed enthusiasm like there's not i don't think there's wasted in 2000 you get people excited about things you're excited about yeah i hope to change behavior well hopefully i usually haven't i usually have a goal yeah i do like having um

a reason good doing things all right a bunch of favorites to finish off with oh i'm not good at this that's all right first thing comes in your head good book oh again i'm these are all just going to be books not favorite but um read iron legend yeah it's a real short story and it's nothing like the movie it's quite a good book good just read it i have a rule with books if if two people suggest the same book two people that i expect to see the same book i'll buy it yeah i

can't imagine many people have read iron legend because they've watched it yeah this is the first zombie book really great great movie will smith get around completely different book and way better all right it's like quite full on i've read it in one sitting i might break my rule overnight break my rule and just get it anyway because i might have it i'll see if i have it if you do i'll read it good for you i like zombie books though yeah is it going to happen at some point wow hopefully not next week when

i'm in the laboratory yeah with all the viruses don't be the first yeah don't be patient zero yeah favorite movie oh shine yeah well done 90s kid um uh david it's a movie about david healthcott which is a australian um classical pianist it was jeffrey rush he won an academy award for it in 98 i think miserably with 90s movies today oh i this is like the only one that's zero from two favorite way to spend a sunday afternoon walking the dog and having a cup of tea shout out to pavlov shout out to pavlov

all the time oh and maybe teaching my birds a new trick what's the what's the what's their best trick oh none at the moment no i'm trying to make them breed it's it's i'm putting all my effort into that anyway sam accidentally bought me a boy and a girl he thought he bought two boys i came home and i was like ah that's a girl so much for studying geology right favorite quote i wrote one down oh did you i have a really bad memory um or i have too many things going on yeah i'd

go with option two yeah um i emailed myself it was henry forward from memory um if i asked you what they wanted they would have just said faster horses what no no no my favorite henry forward quote is if i'd asked people what they want they would have just said faster horses ah good good good yeah he was a pretty phenomenal person really very racist oh yeah for sure but it comes with the time whether you believe you can do a thing or not you are right good yeah elite quote yeah last question favorite way

to consume new information um audio visual i'm quite visually focused i don't know yeah yeah give me a good photo but i'd push that on other people it's it's human how can people follow csro and you and all the cool stuff you do oh i don't ever do much with my own stuff but well you should nah i'm boring um see siro uh just search for your sarah on facebook go to siro gram on instagram or siro at siro news for twitter the reason you follow us on twitter is basically for every day we make

a hashtag four o'clock fact and at 4 p.m every day we'll send you a fact might have to get back on twitter just for that i wouldn't go on twitter for anything else it's a pretty nasty place but go for that yeah good four o'clock facts yeah really good hey thanks for coming on thank you for having me yeah oh by the way tell me about the comp you guys are running oh genie gene face yeah will this air before then it ends on the 15th of july maybe i better expedite this episode okay we'll

see if it doesn't matter well we discovered a gene or a guy um my work um cam and a few other people with him that um it regulates um a lot of our immune system and how it responds to things so it may have some pretty major implications for cancer arthritis uh the flu all sorts of things that are um in that bag um and it's 500 million years old but also our scientist cam he has the rights to name it and he decided he wants to give those rights to the public so you can

name a gene it has to start with c and has to kind of relate to the genes function they're the two rules and it closes on the 15th nice get around it yeah i saw i saw colin on facebook yes i didn't even like it i'm sorry why do you hate me because it's so inspired it's an old gene it's probably a guy that would wear jeans and runners and it started with c so you're insulting so many colins around the world right sorry colin do you know any