Automatically transcribed, so expect the odd wrong name or word.
Hey legends, welcome to yet another instalment of the Virtus Performance Podcast. Before I get stuck into today's amazing guest, I am very, very appreciative to everyone who has listened, commented, sent emails, sent any sort of feedback, whether positive or negative. As long as it is constructive, I am stoked. I guess my goal is to keep refining this and how I do it and making sure that we keep sending out really good content for you guys to challenge ideas and beliefs and yeah, keep making the world a better place one audio snippet at a time. So if you do have feedback, please send it in.
If you hate it, I don't care, just let me know. I'll cry for a little bit and then we'll be okay, but apart from that, enjoy. Today, I sat down with Benny Hogan who has had a very eventful life thus far and I'm sure he's got a lot of amazing years left. He has been heavily into the aviation industry for the last 20 or so years. He's one of the owners and directors at Common Folk Coffee, which is how I was lucky enough to get to meet him and he's someone who I've been able to connect with really well and get to know fairly well over the last couple of months.
It feels like I've known him for a long time, so this was a very exciting conversation for me and something I've been looking forward for for a long time. So let's get stuck in. Enjoy. My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Benny Hogan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Lachie Wallace. It's good to finally have you on.
It's been a long time. Thanks for asking me. Mate, it's an absolute pleasure. I'm sure we're going to have a fun ride over the next 60 minutes or so. Fantastic. First question for you. So, philosophical answer, not the answer you gave me this morning. Okay. What gets you out of bed in the morning? Not the alarm clock. Good. Impact. Impact. As corny as that sounds. Mate, nothing corny about that. I guess over the years, as you get a little bit older and your levels of responsibility change, so do your priorities. And as you get a
little bit older, a little bit wiser, and you're exposed to things like the death of Brownie's dad and things like that, your priorities tend to change around what you get out of your day, some of the things that you're striving for that you hope to achieve throughout the day, the week, the month, the year. And for me, it's just having an impact and probably enjoying the journey along the way as opposed to being task-driven. Being an engineer, you become very task-driven. Yeah. So I'm trying to enjoy the journey more, which is a bit of a recalibration.
Right now, how are you making an impact? The way I'm interacting with people. One of the things that I was lucky to have done over my career, I was afforded an opportunity to do a Berkman test. Now, Berkman test is just another term for personality testing. They put you in certain quadrants, depending on your personality type, things that motivate you, the type of people you work well with. A bunch of those up on the wall. And one of the things that was very much highlighted during the test was my ability to relate with people. So
I guess I'm lucky enough to be gifted with being able to read people well, change my own personality and who I am as an individual to suit the situation. So sometimes you've got to rub someone's back, other times you've got to give them a bit of a rocket and you've got to know the time and place to do either. So I would say right now, that's probably where I've had the greatest impact over the last few years, is actually building good quality teams that don't necessarily rely on me to thrive. Having the ability to get
good people with their own gifts and join them with others to get the ultimate outcome is probably something that I would say I thrive at and enjoy, especially when the result ends up raising others. One thing, I don't really like being in the spotlight, so by raising others up and getting them to see their own net worth, I get a real buzz on that. That's good. Someone as good looking as you should like being in the spotlight. That's for sure. No, no, no. Not at all. Don't say it. I'll come back to some of that stuff you said, but let's go right back to the start.
How did you get into engineering? Why did you decide that that was a ... How did I get into engineering? So school was an interesting one for me. I started off in high school being ... Well, I assume you started off in primary school, mate. Well, I started off in primary school. Can we roll to high school? Yeah, that's right. That's done and dusted. Yeah. I guess I started off high school the way I left primary school, and that was I was house captain. I guess I strived to succeed even at a young age and
applied myself, but school was interesting, I believe, because I'm not necessarily mainstream, and you probably find a lot of people are like that, and if you're lucky enough to attend a school, I wasn't, but from what I hear, attending a school like a Woodley where the school actually adapts to the individual probably would have been good for me, but I went to the local high, which was okay. Where did you grow up? Down here. Mount Eliza. Mount Eliza, good. So I had a terrific childhood, had some great friends, still have a lot of them today, really close-knit group of friends, albeit once you get married and have kids.
Things change a little bit. You know, change in terms of your bandwidth to be able to continue that, but during high school, I started off really well, and like a lot of teenagers, I was exposed to the joys of going out and enjoying one's self, so I've tried just about everything under the sun during my high school years. I probably taught the latter half, did really well at the maths and sciences and all those types of things, so naturally, that was always going to be something that I would utilise that skill set for, but always wanted to be a fighter pilot.
So did the classes that you required at the time to be able to do that, which wasn't a lot of the English arts focus, which isn't me, I'm not that Wayne Klein, I'm pretty black and white, which is probably why I ended up becoming an engineer, but unfortunately, when I went to join the Air Force, I failed my eye exam, so that was something I really wanted to do. So everything was kind of tracking towards it and ticking the boxes around? Yeah, absolutely. While I was probably more academically minded earlier in high school, towards the end, having partied quite a bit, I probably didn't do as well as I should have, and that showed.
That's a familiar story for a lot of people that are succeeding now. It is, but one thing I always knew was that if I, and like a lot of, I guess some people may not get that exposure, but I knew that if I'd found something I loved, I would have done well at it, and I was lucky enough that there was a hiatus, though, between there where I, because I didn't get in, I went up to the Sydney Olympics and worked up there for a little bit, partied a lot, and didn't really know what to do after that.
Applied for two roles, a cadetship with Qantas, as an aerospace engineer, and also for the ambulance, as an ambulance officer. Two fairly opposing... Totally, that's me. Oh, it is? You know, I guess there was always the drive of wanting to help people, which was cool. But I think in the end, the path that I followed was the right path, because I think that knowing who I am, I probably would have got too emotionally involved with the ambulance side of things. And so, yeah, from there, back to the point I made about finding where my sweet spot was, I did find that in aviation, and from there, it just went from strength to strength.
Perfect. Which was fantastic. And I met Sarah around the same time. Awesome. And then the rest, as I say, is history, great podcast, mate, I'll see you later on. Talk to me about, I guess, your industry, or what was your industry and the aviation industry, because it's something that, apart from jumping on a plane to travel to various parts of the world, that's like all I understand of it, and I'm sure a lot of people understand. Well, yeah, there's a lot to it, and I think the traveling public should feel very safe. You know, it's
one of the most heavily regulated industries in the world, particularly in Australia, and the Australian regulator is renowned for being quite pedantic about a lot of things. Probably not the worst problem to have. No, and certainly when it comes to the safety of flight, I was lucky enough to start off on the engineering side of things. So knowing intimately how an aircraft is designed, how it operates, and working on a number of different types of aircraft, so Airbus and Boeing, and having a lot of those exposures. I did a bit of post-grade work with the University of Newcastle to ...
I always felt that I wanted to get into the management side of things. I saw there was a real passion for me in this industry. I saw this industry going a certain way. Obviously, the cost of maintaining aircraft in Australia is very high, and obviously with globalization around the world, there's probably no more transportable asset than an aircraft, and so that was one of the first things to look at. Yeah, fair assessment. Yeah, and that's probably one of the first things that left Australia in terms of what we were doing here around manufacturing and maintenance,
and so I was very much trying to champion for becoming more efficient, so that's probably where my bug for never accepting status quo, so a lot of my studies involve me looking at better ways of doing things, especially in a country where labor rates are very high. The average engineer gets paid before he even gets up out of bed, he's on 150,000 a year. That's a lot of money to have to make on tickets when the average ticket price over the past 20 years has fallen 25%, so we had to become more efficient around how
we were doing things, so I did a lot of work in that space, and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed, and got to a point where I wanted to do my own thing, and I left aviation for a bit to start my own consulting business, and tried to build challenges between going from working for one of the big guys to doing your own thing. I probably did it the wrong way, and I'll be the first to admit that I was probably a little bit arrogant at that point in my career, where I thought that
I knew quite a bit, and whilst my ideas and hypothesis were sound, they also need to be tested with cash flow, and anyone in business, as you would attest to what he was, cash is king, and I got to a stage where in the end, I had two kids at the time with Sarah, and one of the big deals we were trying to do with the Lufthansa Group to build a sustainable engineering facility here in Australia fell over, which was a real shame, it was probably my real first failure at a time when there was a lot of responsibility on me to bring money through the door, so it was a bit humbling.
Can you look back now and kind of see what went wrong? Probably what I said, I was a bit arrogant. While I was young and motivated to get an outcome, I didn't really step that out properly, and as with most things in life, you learn from that, it builds the foundation for the next challenge you have in life, and I guess a lot of those things over the years, while you don't realise they're doing good in you, yeah, it obviously taught me the right way to approach things, and so as you can imagine, the next opportunity that I took, I was a little bit more structured in that approach.
What was next? Took, well, an opportunity came up for, so Cebu Pacific is an airline overseas in the Philippines, and they needed, they were building a long haul business, so there was a low-cost carrier that decided they wanted to fly longer distances. The Filipinos are the largest overseas working population in the world, so they wanted to create a vehicle to bring them home. A lot of the Filipinos, sadly, leave and don't come home for five to seven years, so they just send money home. So Cebu wanted to create an opportunity for cheap air travel, and they started that by operating from Manila to the Middle East.
So I was there doing that, Sarah was back here, we commute two weeks, so I was there for two weeks, back for two days, I did that for 15 months, and Sarah's pregnant with Arthur. So she's just been a solid rock, I mean she, in the end, towards the end, and we had opportunities to go over, I could have stayed there, we could have lived the high life, as many expats do. But no, I ended up coming home, and after Sarah said enough's enough, you know, I think - Good for her, she'd been like that constant as well.
- Yeah, she had, and she's been a massive supporter of everything that we've done along over the time. Actually, I've probably missed part of that, actually, we went to New Zealand first. - Yeah, for work. - So when I left Qantas, I was given an opportunity to go to Christchurch, so I took Sarah and our six month old, our first child, which was pretty challenging for me. - Yeah, I can imagine. - And that was great, and actually, that started my coffee boat, so I was a big, older than a big drinker of coffee then,
and I went to a little place called Littleton Coffee Company, and they were roasting coffee, and I'd never seen this, what's this coffee, I don't know what this is. - What is this, yeah. - I'm gonna come back tomorrow and I'll show you, and I came back and I was just hooked. I remember saying to Sarah when I got home, I'm gonna do this when I get home. - That's awesome. - It was something that just stuck to me, and I remember saying, I don't know how I'm gonna do it, and as you can imagine, Sarah said, but I thought aviation was good, yeah.
- Oh, if you love it, you're gonna be good at it, so. - Yeah, absolutely. So that was a great time for Sarah and I, that was a very, you know, it was just a big country town cross trip, you know, when we were going through, you know, first trial, career change, well not a career change, but a country change, and yeah, it was a great experience, and we were lucky to get out of there just before the earthquake actually, so we weren't affected by that. - Yeah, yeah, well that's lucky. - Yeah, absolutely. Well
our house was, it was significantly damaged, so it took, they had to move out, probably took three or four months for it to-- - Oh yeah, oh mate, it was a, it's crazy, I went, when was the big earthquake, what year was it? I mean-- - 2008. - 2008, 'cause we went last year. - 2009, 2008, 2009. - Yeah, so last year, so eight years post, and like, the city's still-- - Contained the city, so. - Like, it's just crazy, yeah. - Yeah, it's pretty scary. - And it's crazy that it can happen in a
fairly well-off nation, like, you hear all the natural disasters that happen all over the world, and you've got somewhere like New Zealand that still can't get one of their bigger cities, one thing, so. - That's scary, I mean, they, no one had been able to deal with such a seismic event like that in a developed country other than the Americans. And when they came over to do the assessment, 'cause there was no one else who could do it, they said 15, 20 years, guys, that's how far you've got, you know, it was a, and that's just a small 100,000, 150,000 population city.
- Yeah, it's pretty heavy. - Yeah, imagine listening like that in Melbourne, you know, pretty scary. - Yeah, well, touch wood, touch wood, we'll be okay. - So yeah, so I've done the Philippines, done New Zealand, came back to Australia, and took some time off, had some good money in the Philippines enough for us to probably lay low for a little bit, but in that time, I actually met Sam, which was-- - Shout out, I've actually got a shout out, pal, so if it's a shout out, send me a bell. - So a big shout
out, but I probably owe thanks to a man by the name of Duncan Brown, who I was driving, so I was sitting in Deli's car, and I was talking to Deli about my passion for coffee and something I wanted to do when things started to settle in aviation, and Duncan said, "Oh, I know a guy called Sammy Keck, who's mad coffee, wants to open his own roastery." I said, "Really? Well, I'm kind of building a plan right now to do that, but from home." - That's cool. - But hey, look, if we can find someone
who's that crazy like me to want to do something like this, but there was so much more to coffee that I didn't know, you know, like Sammy had lived and breathed it for years, and kind of opened this whole-- - Yeah, he blew my mind when I kind of asked him some questions, and he talked for three days. - Well, I thought I knew enough, just based on the little bit of study that I'd done, but he'd lived and breathed it, obviously, to the extent that I hadn't, and just opened this world to me. - It's exciting.
- And as cliche as it sounds, the rest is history. From that day forward, we were on this path of finding the right venue, and everything just happened organically. It was very bizarre, actually, you know, five years ago, while actually it was probably 12, so it would have been longer, it would have been nearly two years in the making by the time we had the first discussions when it opened. So 2011 was when we started, and then, yeah, 2013 was when it all happened. - So what was the process like, I guess, being one of the owners and driving it, but at the same time you were working at the same time?
- Yeah, it was challenging. It's probably been, I mean, there are times where you don't realize just how much you're doing until you take time to sit down and go, "Wow, I really am tired." Or, you know, "I realize that I haven't been giving Sarah time, all the time she deserves, all the kids." And I guess that's probably why we came to the decision of me leaving Aviation in the end because I couldn't do it all, you know, walking with Sammy's been a great, I've had a great sense of joy in doing that with him, but I also become too involved in some things.
And by doing that, it's probably a real issue of control, so I tend to want to control outcomes. - Well, someone that's had that result, those results for so long, it's no wonder you want to put a stamp on it. - Yeah, Aviation's one of those things where you don't want to leave it to chance. From being an engineer and being very structured to taking on the most recent role that I had, which was the director of safety for the airline, you have to be methodical in everything that you do, down to investigating serious incidents.
In the end, these are all evidence to be used in any court case, and you've got to make sure that you cross your teeth and dot your I's, so I felt that that was, in terms of the effort and structure and process that goes into making sure that everyone has a place in the world, I felt that that was something I could use to our advantage in common form. - Definitely. From an emotional and personal point of view, what was that role like, and what was it like having that responsibility of head of safety? 'Cause that's a-- - In 2016, I have never cried so much in my life.
I cannot tell you how challenging that was, going up against the regulator. When I first started, I was 35, five, three, six. - You look like 26 now. - Well, if Sammy's been in your area, we're going to get to Benjamin Bunsen, I can't-- - May I? I haven't spoken to Sam in weeks. But yeah, that was a really challenging time, so my whole career has been, I've been educated a certain way on the engineering side of aviation, and there are so many different facets as you can imagine. Commercial side, finance side, buying and selling aircraft, flying aircraft, ground operations, cabin crew, you name it.
And so I've been kind of educated on one side, and then on the next role was a significant step up. And by the way, you're responsible for this part of the airline, which was this big. And so, when you're learning a new craft and having to be responsible at the same time, it can be really challenging, so there were some humbling moments for sure. You know, when you sit in front of the board and present on the airline, and its position for the last three months was both rewarding and daunting. John Borgetti, Elizabeth Bryan, all these are, Elizabeth Bryan's chairman of AIG, and-- - All the big dogs.
- Yeah, all the big dogs. Samantha Moyne, who's the chairman of BHP, they're all on the board and all firing questions at you. You kind of look out the window, and here I am looking at the Sydney Harbour Bridge on a day like today, looking in Macquarie Place, just thinking, "How have I even got here?" And that was quite-- - As weird grounding moments when you're in those positions. - But also come, one of the biggest vices I have in life is my expectation of myself. And so I had to perfect everything, in terms of
how I presented myself, the information I shared, to the point where if there was the slightest slip, I could be in a pretty dark place, which is hard to believe, in terms of what I've been talking about, but I guess when you want to strive and become the best at what you can be, there's a side effect to that, and that is that when it doesn't happen, you're pretty critical of yourself. - What were the, I guess, coping mechanisms, or what did you, what process did you go through when you had those times where things didn't go right?
- Well, if I'm really honest here, my faith has been a huge part of my walk, especially throughout some of the more difficult times of my career, praying a lot, both with Sammy and my other Christian brothers, and being more reliant, not of myself, but of my faith. I found that when I tried to do things of my own strength, that I'd probably fall over a lot more, so it doesn't mean that you rest on your laurels and have blind faith, but you are realistic in terms of what you're capable of, so that was a
huge change and shift in me, and probably then allowed me to have a fantastic 2017 when I started to lean more on my faith, and in those moments when you're having to present in front of the board, having to provide the regulator with, you know, recorded events of serious incidents and what you're doing about it, and not necessarily taking the responsibility of the airline on your shoulders, but actually just representing the airline. - Yeah. - There's a difference, and so early on I found it difficult to separate the two that I felt was all on my shots, when actually it wasn't, so.
- Yeah, that's probably a good mindset to be able to get into, and rather than being able to-- - Yeah, it is. - Yeah, the buck stops with you, but at the same time it's, you're in charge of everyone, not necessarily responsible for their actions. - Yeah, I'm not responsible for their actions, you know. - You've gotta determine what's going on. - But I guess with the standard and the high standard that I set, that was a good outcome for the airline, you know, I set a level of expectation that was unwavering, and I expected
that, and the airline went through an enormous cultural shift in terms of how people perceive safety to being one that, actually a good example of some of the good things that we did. So there was a confidential reporting system that had been around the airline for a long time. - Yeah. - You'd likely get four reports a year. By the end I was getting, oh, I was getting probably 10 a week. - So that's significant. - And when you think of what-- - Big growth. - Yeah, I mean, confidential reporting systems aren't just for reporting
safety events, they're for reporting people that are going through shit, and what we found is that we created an environment where people felt that they could come and open up about what's going on in their life. - That's incredibly important, yeah. - Well, you walk past, I mean, a matter of fact, you walk past in life and we have no idea the shit that's going on in our lives. - 100%. - We're on a facade. - Yeah. - And we all do it. And it was really nice to have created an environment where there was such a cultural shift to people becoming more open and dealing with their issues.
- Yeah. Well, I guess in an environment like that where you kind of look at machines all day, it's really easy to look at people as machines. - Well, it's black and white as an engineer, it's, you know, you forget that you're dealing with the most unblack and white component of anything, and that is the human being. - People, yeah. - So that was something I really enjoyed, you know, seeing, when we were back to the very first point we raised and what gets you up, it's impact, you know, if I can have that impact
on someone that may not have had that idea about themselves when they got up in the morning, but went home a happier person, then I've done my job. - That's the dream. - Yeah, absolutely. - Tell me a little bit more about your faith. Is that something you've had growing up, or is it something that's come recently? - No, actually, I was just invited to talk, you heard of Alpha? - Haven't. - So Alpha is, it's a way for non-Christians to seek the questions about the faith. So some of the big, important questions that people ask in life.
And I was lucky enough to attend one of those back in 2009, so my wife grew up in a Christian family. - Yep. - But I had anything and everything that, you know, a young bloke would want. Loving family, you know, my parents are still together, I had a terrific upbringing, great holidays, great school. - Yep. - You know, it was only public school, but I had a great time. - Yep. - Great friends, still have them all. But, you know, when I was chasing my career, I really started to question what was it all about, 'cause I was achieving.
- Yeah. - I was getting there, and then it wasn't enough. And I was getting there, and then it wasn't enough. And I was getting there, and it wasn't enough. And so, what was interesting though, that when I started my faith walk, it was at a time in my life where I did have everything. So there was, you know, people who come to faith, you know, come from all walks of life. - Yeah. - You know, there are those that are in the deep, dark depths of sorrow through, you know, some significant life events. - Yep.
- People like me who were in a pretty good place, you know, had my career, had my wife, had my first child, was having my second at the time. - Yep. - And I think, you know, one of the biggest issues for having faith is prosperity, you know, because you don't need anything. - Yeah. - You're doing really well. Well, so I thought anyway. - Yeah. - And so, I just kept searching and asking questions, and finally came to the conclusion that what they say about Jesus Christ was true, and that was a really important transition for me in terms of how I valued things, how I prioritized things.
- Yeah. - It didn't mean that I didn't strive, I just put things into perspective, and I think that was a really important change through coming to faith was that if I didn't achieve, it wasn't the be all end all, whereas before, I would have put everything. - Yeah. - Yeah. So, even going through that phase more recently in 2016 where it was, you know, I was going through some challenging moments in terms of succeeding, and it doesn't mean that just because you become a Christian that life becomes easier, far from it. - Yeah. Well, it gives you an outlet to...
- Well, you just become more aware. - Just, yeah, discuss and be aware of things. - And it's a growth thing. - Yeah. - But I, you know, I'm just continually growing in my faith walk, I guess, and through every event, as with most things, you just gain more strength for the next. - Yeah. - So, I guess what having a faith is all about is that it just builds resolve over the years, and while it came late in my Christian walk, it's certainly, I'm a totally different person to what I was before, and my wife can attest to that.
- Well, I like this version. I didn't know the other version. - Yeah. - But I'm a big fan. - Oh, that's nice. - And it's something that's really, like, it really interests me because I'm someone that's come from, like, I've never been someone of faith. - Yeah. - But I've really enjoyed talking to people like you and Tommy. - Yeah. - And Sammy, to see what you get out of it, because I think it's, it was always, for me, it was very black or white. It's just like, "Oh, no, that's crazy. This is what I think."
- It is. - And I guess, as I mature a little bit and start to look at spirituality on a different level, like, I'm still, it's hard, very hard for me to be convinced of certain things. - Yeah. - But my-- - That's because you're intelligent. - Yeah, well, yeah. - And you'll ask a lot of questions. - I do like asking questions, but it's my understanding of the importance of spirituality and mindfulness and things like that, and if you, and to me, now, like, if you asked me three or four years ago, I would argue till I was building a face, but to now, it doesn't really matter which side you come from.
- Yeah. - Because there's so, there's too many similarities in the middle with it, where it's just wanting to be a good person, wanting to help other people, wanting to create a better world for people to live in. - Yeah. - What you decide, I guess, that that comes from doesn't really matter to me anymore, and I think that's something where a lot of people that are, like, heavily anti-religious miss. - Yeah. - And on the other side as well, so. - It's an interesting point you make around, you know, for me, it's, I'm not,
I agree with you actually, in terms of the, you know, in the end, you can see that, you know, a lot of people are working towards the same outcome. - Yeah, yeah. - And I'm challenged by those who say that there is absolutely nothing, because. - We can't know, that's the thing. - And I think that, you know, when you're so fixated on the nothing, you know, you start asking a lot of questions, well, then what's the point? You know, and to me, there is always a belief. Whether you believe something else in the end, I think that contributing to improving humanity in whatever that looks like.
- I understand. - Is probably the most important thing. - Yeah, I think Sammy said it, maybe right in the middle of that podcast, he goes, "We, like, think the same way." Like, we have the same kind of. - Yeah, absolutely. - We have the same drives and values and things like that, our beliefs are just different. - What's interesting, and I can actually put this podcast back on you, is I've been really encouraged by how quickly I've developed a relationship with you, like you're a different person, Lachie, you know, you've got a real approachability. - I'll take that as a compliment.
- Absolutely, and it is, you've got a real approachability around you about you, you're very mature for your age, you'd be-- - No, 10-26 is basically downhill from here. - Yeah, well, I'll tell you what, if there are a lot of 26-year-olds with the level of maturity that you have on your shoulders, mate, the world would be a much happier place. - I appreciate that. - So I've really, in a very short period of time, grown to like you a lot, mate, so it's a great opportunity. - I appreciate that. - You can talk about it.
- Definitely, definitely. Like, you know, I've had those conversations with a few people, it comes from wanting to know, and I know that I'll never know everything, but-- - But you're a seeker. - Yeah. - I can see in the way you write your blogs, you know, you're a real deep thinker, there's a famous saying, you know, "The world doesn't need any more gifted people or intelligent people, it needs deep thinkers." You know? - Yeah. And I'll keep exploring it, that's kind of the fun and exciting thing, I just need to chill out every now and again and stop thinking that deeply.
- That's what drives you, too. - Yeah, 100%. - Yeah. - 100%. And like, that blog I did right the other day about people being at high capacity, you're obviously someone who's had that high capacity flowing for a long period of time. - Yeah. - How have you gone translating that from, I guess, aviation to now management coming forward? - Yeah, it's interesting, I feel like I've been institutionalised as well, you know, it's probably a better way of saying it. And that is that I've been taught a certain way, you know, I've been structured how I, you know, and living this far away, too, from my place of work, you know, in aviation has been challenging.
- It's all systems and processes, right? - Yeah, it is. - Just ticking boxes. - It is. And now, you know, coming into a dynamic environment, I mean, look, aviation is very dynamic. I mean, it changes the drop of the hat in terms of what can happen at any given time, which is probably why my last role was both enjoyable and stressful at the same time. - That's a dream. - Yeah. - Ticking both boxes. But certainly coming into this role has created a number, not just opportunities for us as for common folk, you know,
being able to, I've always been a firm believer, as I said, in our giftings, and freeing Sam up to utilise his gift to his full capacity. That's where we can really start to see things happen in this business and already we've seen what can happen when, you know, we're able to do that, but also utilise, you know, my giftings in terms of how we can build, you know, a lot of process and structure in how we manage the business. It's really important, especially with the size and scope that it is today. But also not coming into a business pretending you know it all.
And I don't. And I, you know, coming into a business and actually listening to people and saying, right, well, this is what I would do, but would that work in this environment? Yeah. Well, yes, it would or no, it won't because this is what will happen, it'll be processed for the sake of process. Yeah. Okay, well, we won't do that. So we've been able to do that quite well, you know, even after five or six weeks, which has been... Is that all it's been? Yeah. Six weeks. That's insane. I know. Because I've been around forever. But probably the greatest, the greatest gain I've got is actually being home with my family.
You know, I've got four kids now, a very patient wife that's been unbelievably supportive over the past 18 years. She's a bad influence. Yeah, she is. She is actually. She's a bad influence. She showed her side of me the other day, I didn't know it was there, I knew it was there. So and, you know, I think you did a blog on, I forget what the title was, but you had quadrant settings in terms of where you place certain priorities at different stages of your life. And I guess I'm at a stage where, or even daily, I guess I'm at a stage where it's a season.
And right now my season is to help support Sarah and raise that family. But I'm also responsible for, you know, getting common folk to where we need to get it. But I get to enjoy that ride with Sammy as well. Yeah, well, it's pretty cool to hear the way you talk about it, because it's incredibly selfless because your first thing you said was freeing Sammy up to do his, what he's good at, even though that is inherently what you're good at, is to be able to identify which person is good where and then allow them to execute their thing.
Well, we've all got a place in the world, you know, and I guess one of the things I've been able to do in past roles is find each of those gifts with the people that I have. And if they don't exist, I get to find them. And everyone gets a level of responsibility and accountability in a structured way, you know. And I know that that's, and I guess I adopt, I approach it like that, because that's the way I'd like it. I would like someone to tell me, this is what's expected of me. And I know that because I'm gifted in these areas, you know.
So Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And then everyone wins, right? Absolutely. Because the business gets the best of each individual and then each individual gets the best of each individual. People I'm floundering, you know, they're not going, I think I've done what's expected of me. Yeah. And that's by giving people that structure in the form of role mandates that explicitly point to what their responsibilities are under their PDs. And also, depending on who it is, they get a reward too when they get to achieve that. It's very structured. It's very clear what's expected of them. Might have to pick your brains on that.
Yeah, I'd love to. Definitely. Absolutely. If you seem like the kind of person that would have a lot of principles for a lot of the things you do, if you're building a team from scratch, or if you're building an elite team, what would be the things you look for? Well, first of all, you've got to define your strategy. So what a lot of businesses fail at is that they build the structure first for really understanding what it is they're seeking. So one of the things that I've always focused on is where we're heading. So what is it that we need to deliver on?
Yeah. Which I can, as you can imagine, aviation is pretty important. And from there, you define what actions need to happen in the form of responsibilities and process to drive that. And then you need to find out what you need in terms of personnel, human capital to drive that. So those three things, and in that order. So I've been a part of a number of organisations that haven't, they've kind of reversed it. So I've got him, I've got her, so I'll get you to listen to that rather than, okay, well, what is it that we're actually seeking?
Yeah. Well, that's been our kind of transition and switch over the last six, 12 months. Yeah. At the start, it was just, well, who do we need? And then kind of started working on the vision early last year, and then obviously the vision is something that was always there, but it was never really properly thought through. And now we're at the stage where the vision's kind of, it'll never be set in stone, it'll always be fluid. But the strategy behind it... It needs to be. Yeah. The strategy's always going to be working towards that vision. Yeah.
Fantastic. And then if we start ticking those off, then the goals will start to open up and we'll be able to figure out, okay, what resources do we need for each of those goals to occur? And then it's just a matter of everyone executing on their own. But you've got a really strong brand. I mean, clearly you're the driver behind it, is that question. And you can see that in the way that you teach, the level of knowledge. I've been really impressed actually. I made most of it up. Did you? Yeah. At least it sounded good.
Well, I believed it anyway. And it fixed me. Yeah, good. Oh, there you go. So at least you know what you're doing. But occasionally, occasionally that blind, blind throat hits the bullseye. Fantastic. So, no mate, I've been really impressed with how far, how long has it been since now? We've been in that space, we've been really open, really started there in October of 2015, so two and a half years, so it's still pretty fresh. You've come a long way though. Yeah. It's been a long time. Yeah, it was kind of, the last 12 months has
just been leaps and bounds, so I'm simultaneously mindful of my need and desire for growth, but also mindful of my need for, or our need as a team to kind of settle and allow it to... So you want to solidify the foundation before you do scribble? I do want to do both at the same time, which you can't really do, so... Well, you can, but you've got to do it. You've got to do it... It'll be in sections. It'll be, like, right now, it's all about locking in what the vision is and the strategy and
what it looks like, and moving towards it, and then, yeah, 2018 will be a big year for growth, and then 2019 will be a big year for growth outwards. Fantastic. So maybe you can probably give me a bit of one. No, no, no, it's, to be honest, I'm not sure. I know, like, our vision is really, really simple, it's just to make the world a better place, which, like your impact thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. It sounds cliche and stuff, but it's not. But it's true. Yeah, so help... I mean, in the end, what legacy do you want to leave behind?
Well, that's exactly it. So we want to make the world a better place, we want to help people change their behavior, we want to help people be happier and healthier and all that kind of stuff, and if we can have more people that believe in the things that we believe now, more coaches and things like that, and then more of the community, then that's going to happen. So whether that's that one and another one, whether it's one big one, whether it's whatever, I don't know, but the next three, I'm trying to sort out our kind of strategy and vision for the next three to five years at the moment, which is not something that it's hard to think about.
I read that you had a, is it a business coach or a life coach? Yeah, so I've got a bunch of mentors that are just incredible people that help me, like, inspire me to do what I'm doing every day. I do have a bunch of guys who are business coaches and they help daily, I got a meeting with them later on today, which will be good. That's awesome. I had a meeting with a very good friend and mentor on Saturday who's kind of just keeping my butt into gear and just helps with clarity more than anything, talking to those guys that have done it before.
Well, that's actually, it's interesting you say that, it's probably, and you've learnt that a lot earlier than I did, but surrounding yourself with the right counsel is absolutely good. I must have just gotten really lucky in realising that a couple of years ago and just being like the people, I want to surround myself with people that have done it and who have ticked the boxes and have achieved the things I want to achieve, but at the same time, I also want to surround myself with the people that are young and driven and kind of like
me that want to do that as well, because it's like, I know some of the guys I have looked up to in the past, their focus is, well, if you haven't done it before, I don't want to talk to you, but I think you're kind of missing a big chunk of, I get just as much inspiration from my staff as I do from the people that I look up to. It's just different. They're living and breathing. 100%. And they're making the world a better place one person at a time, and that's all, that's all it is.
So yeah, good question, where it goes, I don't know, but I'll be picking your brain a lot over the next, forever. I would be really happy to be your sounding board for you. Good. I love what you're doing, mate. I appreciate it. If I can help you with anything, I will. Good. Alright, talk to me about footy. You skipped it. You skipped the whole thing, mate. Footy, footy, footy. Wow. I love my footy. Good. I still love it. Diehard Melbourne fan. Don't read into that too much. Although they did look very promising last weekend, this weekend against North Melbourne.
Don't worry about any footy that's played before like June. I know. But Melbourne supporters can't help but get excited this time of year because it all ends poorly. But I love my football. Wish I'd probably, I was a bit immature with the football, didn't play football as a young man. Sorry, young. I say young man, I played football as a young man, but I didn't play football as a teenager at all. Yeah. I played one year of Under 18s. That was my first year of football. Crazy. I played a lot of basketball before then. And
then from there, my first season of senior football was when I was 18, so the last two games of my Under 18s year, played seniors and then didn't stop from there. And I guess I was one of those athletic types that needed to be educated on the skills of football and the game plan and all those things. Well, if you start on your 18, you're gonna miss a few of the development stages. Yeah, you do. You do. But I would probably be more useful now than if I was starting out, because that's the way the NFL clubs tend to go now, they kind of get the athlete and train the rest.
But yeah, I was kind of just starting out and yeah, I had a great opportunity with St. Kilda in 2001. Yep. So how long was that after your first games? So '97. Yeah. It was my first game. Yeah. So 2001, so it's at four years. I played three years of senior football. And then actually one of those years I had off because it was when I think it's when I started at Qantas. Yeah. And yeah, what happened was I was told about what was going on and that I was going to play for St. Kilda reserves the next week.
Yep. And then I had to play. What happened was I had a scout come down, something great, a great season, and just totally ballsed it up. I just started to afford it. So you knew the scout was coming? Yeah. Yeah. That's even worse. Yeah. I don't know why I kind of think back on that. I don't know why I was even told that. But yeah, you know, look, that's the way, you know, I'm also a fair believer in, you know, sliding doors, you know, one door shuts, another one opens and yeah, as a result of that, I became more focused on my career.
Yeah. And through that, a lot of things changed, you know, the journeys I've had overseas, the kids I've been able to raise, all those things, you just never know how life would have gone had things developed differently. But yes, I love my football. And I do reflect on that and wish I'd probably pursued that a little bit more. Yeah. And I said I was a bit immature and might have thrown my hands in the air when it didn't go my way. But again, I was only... Then you just moved that focus to achieve other things anyway, so...
Yeah, I did. So, but I was a bit immature then as well and playing football, so... Yeah. And did things and probably I look back on that were good fun, but at the time, we'd probably do it again. Yeah. No, that's fair. But I love my football. Yeah. Still do it. Yeah. Good. Yeah, I heard you fairly handy. What about you? Tell me about your football career. Oh, gosh. Yeah, mate. I told you, it's conversation you can ask, whatever you want. You were post on then Curtis, so... Oh, mate. He's a king. Yeah. Yeah. My footy career has kind of been like I...
You played for a common good, didn't you? Yeah. For a big period of my growing up, I guess I identified myself as a footballer first. That was... Yeah. That was it. Footy was everything. School and things like that would take a little bit more of a backseat because of footy. Did the normal kind of way through, played stingrays, and then got dropped from stingrays and played seniors. Yeah. My first under 18 year, played a year of seniors, and I think we got beaten in a prelim, maybe, which ended up being a really good thing because it was a catalyst for a bunch of flags at YCW, which has been nice.
Went to stingrays the year after, did a couple of years of stingrays, wasn't good enough to get drafted, which I wouldn't have been able to admit back then, but I can admit now. Yeah. Just wasn't good enough. Why do you think that? Why do you think you weren't good enough? If I was good enough, I would have got picked up. Yeah. Or if I was good enough, I would have got picked up in the subsequent years. Would you have done anything differently, or do you think it just was what it was? Yeah. It is what it is.
It's a really hard question to answer. Would I have done anything differently? If I knew what I knew now, yes. Yeah. But my... At the time. But my drive now is nowhere near what it used to be with football, which is a hard thing to swallow some days, because I miss that, I guess, being at that level. So I was there, all planned to go to Frankston Dolphins and play a couple of years there, and one of my favorite players growing up, Tarkan Lockyer, was the coach at VFL. Oh, really? Yeah. Piers then, and I got a call from him one day, and I'm like, "Someone's taken the piss out of me here."
Call from him, he's like, "Do you want to come down to preseason next week?" I was like, "Well, shoot, yeah." So I went down there, and didn't miss a session or preseason, and... So you were solid. Yeah, got a gig on the list, and played every game that year, except for the first one at VFL, Piers, and yeah, kind of just fell in love with the place, and I've left a long column and supported it, so it was a really good... Oh, you really? It's like a dream come true. Yeah. It genuinely was. It was a crazy year.
I was at uni, and being a PT, and doing all that stuff, but footy was everything. Yeah. And yeah, played another 60 games over the next six years. Fantastic. Being in that environment, it's... You must have been young. Yeah, I was 19 when I started, and as Virtus started, they worked together, and taking on the business by myself to maybe 18 months ago. Yeah. Obviously, time-wise, there's only a certain amount of time. Like, I've never wanted to say I don't have enough time, but it was hard to balance those two. Yeah. Managed a year of it.
Had a crack at last year, and it just didn't work, so pulled the pin, and now I just go back to YC, and... So you're not gonna play? Yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I've been a bit slack over the last six months, because I've gone away for six weeks, and work's been super busy, and footy's taken a bit of a backseat, but I'm very... My intention is, when I get back, to kind of dive back in and... You sound like you've got good balance in your life. That's an interesting assumption, because a lot of people would say that I don't have good balance.
Really? I probably do. I have balance for what I want to be doing. Well, on the outside, I mean, I'm by no means presuming that I know what goes on in the inner circle, but on the outside, it looks like you balance it well. If you manage your business well, you don't look stressed, so you either got a very good focus, or... I'm very good at just letting things happen. I'm very action-driven, and outcome-driven, and things like that, but knowing that that action is determined by the little inputs day in, day out, it's not... I don't have to...
And I'll have days where I just, like, today's a 14-hour day, but that's becoming normal, much to the dismay of my partner, KP, so I need to take some of your advice, and I'm trying to split it up and get better at it, but it's a juggling act, and it's a learning experience, right? So... It's a time and a place. Everything has a season, Loggy. Yeah, season's good. And, you know, sometimes your season to get where you need to be requires a certain level of effort, and then there will be another season where you need to focus on something else.
Yeah, and I was in that footy season for a long period of time, and I was lucky enough while I was at Collingwood to play in four of the YCW flags, so it was always nice coming back to the boys and ticking a few of those boxes, and now the season's work, and it's growing the brand and growing the team and all that kind of stuff, which is a challenge within itself, but I'm looking forward to... It's hard to take the nights off work and actually make myself go to football, but when I'm there, I love it, so it's...
So you're really close, or are you, at the stage where you've got that team you can walk away and leave? Yeah. Yeah. I hope so, because... I guess going away... Well, taking six weeks holiday, it was actually... It's a holiday, but I'll be doing a lot of, I guess, vision and strategy work while I'm over there, and figuring out where we're going over the next five seasons. Made it. It's the worst part of the world, so it was funny, it was actually a podcast that made me pull the trigger on it. Really? Yeah, I was with a couple of the guys who started Intrepid Travel, and one of the things they said was they set themselves a...
They were figuring out, "Well, shit, we love traveling. We've got to make sure we don't go away too much." They realized early on that if they went away for more than three months, minimum three months a year, they'd put people in positions to allow their vision to keep growing. So I heard that, and I think I listened to it on a Monday, and on the Friday I booked the trip. Fantastic. Yeah, I booked it in October, so I booked it just after I discovered my shoulder, I played for you, which ended up being a quick injury, which was nice, but yeah, booked that.
It's been an incredible growth period for Virtus over the last six months in terms of the team and their ability to... I'm not worried at all. I'm actually really excited to see everyone. You're encouraged. You're watching awesome. Yeah, well, I'll just have to leave you in charge while I'm away, I guess. But that's enough about me. This is your podcast. No, it's silly. All right, I've got a bunch of questions for you. Okay, go for it. And I just want, first thing that comes in your head, or first answer, and you may have been thrown under the bus a little bit on a few of these, talk to me about Benjamin Button.
That is a false statement. It is a, what was that, it was a moment that I would like to go back and change, and did not represent my level of intelligence. Let's just leave it at that. No. We're going deeper. Talk me through it. Elaborate. I'm not going to go there. You have to, mate. You have to. So sitting in the car, something happened in regards to a comment being made about... Actually, I don't even remember, it was something to do, it was obviously about Benjamin Button. And I said, I can't believe that that happens to some people, or something like that.
And it was followed by silence, and I realised what I said, and I tried to cover it up, but someone like Sam Keck, he won't just bang onto it, he said, "No, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, what did you just say?" I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." And obviously, one of the positive things is that it doesn't happen often in terms of me saying something that is... Mate, when it does, we'll enjoy it even more. A lower IQ level, but that's certainly painted the wrong picture, I'll put it that way. That's outstanding.
That's very, very good. Next question. Have you ever had your photo in the paper? Yes. I have. Talk me through it. Big moment. Had a couple of photos in the paper. Yeah, good. Had one. No, but one... I've been told to ask you about one specific one. So one was in 1998, when I played in a Senior Grand Final, when I was 19. Playing for Matalyzer. Playing for Matalyzer. Oh, so they have won some. That's good. They have. That's good. I was worried. I was lucky to have won two of their three. Good. Which is good.
But that one in particular was taken by the leader newspaper with me taking a mark and my balls out the side of my shorts, which, well, probably never made it to the paper. It was printed and obviously they realized what it was. But you got some copies? Sure. I have a photo of it that will never see the light of day. Challenge accepted. Challenge accepted. All right, I might have to enlist some help. Yeah, that's right. Good, good, good. All right. Now some actual real questions. Okay. Have you had a defining moment? A defining moment. A defining moment.
The day that I realized that I was going to marry Sarah. Awesome. It was in 2003 and I was looking at her a certain way and, I know this sounds very corny, and I realized that I was going to marry that woman. Awesome. And then, yeah, 12 months after that I proposed to her and being married since 2005. Yeah, I've seen it. And you're batting? Hey, and I'm batting way above my average. We all know that. We all know that. Good, good, good. What's your favorite fun fact? Fun fact. What's my favorite fun fact? What's my favorite fun fact?
That's an interesting question without notice. Yeah. Fun fact, fun fact, fun fact. Come on. Go coffee. You got it. Second biggest commodity in the world. Yeah. See, I heard this discussion with Tommy T the other day. Yeah. By volume, by the way. Yeah. So it's volume. So the tea is consumed more highly than coffee. It is. So then how is coffee the biggest commodity? By volume. Is it because you need more coffee for each cup than you need for tea? Yeah. So that was the conclusion I came to. It was the volume driver. Here's one. It's interesting.
How many tea plants are there? Oh, lots. Don't know. Give me one. One. One type. So the process. General list. Yeah. The process. There you go. Mate, that's an elite fun fact. So the process behind tea is where it changes. No. It's processed, what they add to it will define the type of tea that you drink, but it all comes from the one tea plant. That's one busy plant. That's good. I like that. That's actually really cool. Awesome. What advice would you give 15-year-old Ben Hogan? There's a great quote. I love quotes, mate. I love them a lot.
Francis Chan is his name. He has a quote that the greatest fear in life shouldn't be that of failure, but it's succeeding at life at things that do not matter. So knowing that as a young man. That's really heavy. Not that I would have changed anything, I probably would have ... If I'd had that at the back of my mind, it may have changed the direction on some things. Yeah. Cool. I like that one. I like that a lot. If you could travel anywhere in the world right now, where would it be? Canada. Why? Well, there's something serene, something so peaceful about it that I would ...
It's funny as I get a little bit older there, the things that you kind of look for is serenity and solitude and being ... I'd love to do that trip with Sarah. I've been to a lot of places. I've been so privileged in aviation to have traveled to Europe and the States and picked up aircraft and flown them home empty and dropped overnight in countries I'd never been to. And just get back on board and fly home. It's been fantastic, but the one place I've been is Canada. Is it planned at any point? Well, I don't know.
I'd like to probably take the kids, but it's probably one of those trips I want to do with just Sarah, so that won't be for some time. Just get Sammy to look after the kids. Sammy. Well, he keeps offering to look after them. Probably getting a complex flight. Maybe that weird uncle. Shit. If you could be remembered in one sentence, what would it be? If I could be remembered in one sentence, what would it be? Love and not a fire. Good. Do you have a morning routine? Well, I did have a morning routine, and that's been turned upside down since moving to Confo.
Yep. And now I do the things I wish I'd had time to do. So I guess it's one of those things that when I decided to leave aviation, I said that I had to probably honor that in terms of what I said I would do, and so get up in the morning, read a couple of chapters of the Bible, which I love, which was something I wasn't able to do before. Yep. So that was 5, 5.30, in the car, there, home by 7.30, eat dinner, go to bed. And that had a big kind of effect on the way I looked after myself too.
So now that I'm doing what I'm doing, I'm taking great enjoyment in the time that I have looking after myself and actually being with the family. Perfect. Yep. Good. I'm really interested to hear your answer on this one, because it's a word that you've come up with a couple of times, both positive and negative connotations, what is success to you? What is success? Yeah. Success is, for me, probably the one thing that I started with, and that is having an influence and impact on at least one person in my lifetime. If I can contribute to changing the course, the directional course of anyone's life to a positive, then I've done my job.
Perfect. And that's what I get great enjoyment in doing. I like it. If you could invite three people to dinner, dead or alive, who would they be and why? I'm Drew. Yep. Chris Cornell. Mm-hmm. And who else? Who else? William Wilberforce. You can actually elaborate on the last one. William Wilberforce abolished the slave trade. Oh, really? Yeah. So he was a remarkable human being, at a time when he would have fucked the trend in so many ways and been an outcast, he stood for something, and I'd like to quiz him on how he felt during that time, to be able to make a stand for something when the world tells you something different.
I'm really inspired by that. Good. Well, as you said before, you're not someone that sticks with the status quo. No, not at all. And I was just going to point that to me when those type of things inspire me. I think I read a post yesterday, it was the death of Sophie, Sophie's last name, she was a 21-year-old that was executed by Hitler in 1943. She started a student revolution against Hitler, and she was executed. And one of her last statements was, "How can so many of us stand silent at a time when we all need to be giants in terms of our voice?"
And then she was killed that day after making that quote. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty impacting. That's what happens if you're willing to give up your life for the greater good. For someone who's bigger than you, yeah. That's why I'd love to have you, Maureen Wilberforce. Good. Be cool. I like it. Last one, couple of favourites to finish off. Okay, go. Favourite movie? Top Gun. Favourite book? Mere Christianity. Good. I meant to ask you before, actually, Top Gun, the reason why you want to be a fighter pilot? It's not that shallow. But it might be up there.
It's probably up there. It was '85. So how old was I in '85? That was six. Look, it's pretty cool. You know, that was... I put a little last text next to it, and I didn't put it in that screen. Yeah, that's pretty cool. It may have been a little bit to do with that, but it's certainly, you know, when I think about a career that involved fine, very fast pieces of technology, that was a buzz. Good. Favourite coffee you had at your last cupping? Bloody Sammy's Butcher. No, no, this is one of my regular questions.
Favourite coffee was the new process decaf that I had as my number one. Wow. That's interesting. Cuffee. Jeez. I don't know how to follow that. It was terrible. I must admit, I had decaf before, and it's sort of ringless. And this was a good one. It was fantastic. It's a new process they got to remove the caffeine from the coffee, so. I don't know if I'm okay with that, but that could be a good one for coffee eight and nine for the day. There you go. The 11 a.m. coffee. Favourite dad joke? Favourite dad joke. What's white and blue in jump stencils?
What's that? A fridge with a denim jacket on. Good. So stupid and ridiculous. I love those jokes, those are the best ones mate. Alright, last one. Favourite quote? Ah, I said it. Can't be something you've used already. Really? Yep. Think of another one. C.S. Lewis. Greatest disappointment in life is your expectation of others. Good. Right, on that note, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much mate. It's like I've been talking with an old mate for years. Yeah, it's good. I can't believe it's only been like six weeks.
It's insane. What's going on with that?
