S1E42 · Mark Simpson: Impermanence

Hey guys, welcome to the Virtus Performance Podcast. Big thanks to all of you guys who have been listening for for 41 weeks. This is number 41, far out. Listening for 40 weeks or so. It's been really cool to kind of set the goal of hitting a podcast a week for a year and then having a look and realizing that we're 41 weeks in. It's pretty, uh, it's pretty cool. One step at a time. It feels like only yesterday I was scared shitless to sit down and record me talking rubbish for 10 minutes, but here we are, 41 episodes later.

Today I sat down with the great man Mark Simpson. Some of you guys might know Mark as one of the directors at PACE Health Management. We had a really, really cool discussion and about exercise, about training, about life, about business, about growth, about kind of personal development and being introspective and actually looking at what you're good at and what you're not and what you need to improve on. Mark's been someone who I've looked up to over the last five or so years since I did my some of my placement at PACE and he is a great man and a very good friend and I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Mark Simpson, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. It's good to finally have you on. Yeah. Been pulling hair to get you on for the last six months. What made you finally want to jump in? I think I finally have some free time and I'm happy to have a discussion on all things exercise, training, life and see where we end up.

Good, looking forward to it. Yeah. First question for you. What gets you out of bed in the morning? What gets me out of bed in the morning? A desire to make a positive impact in the community and people I work with. I think my passion is around helping people and showing them that there's a better way in terms of movement, exercise, health, rehabilitation. I think I'm resonating more and more with that quote, "Win the morning, win the day." For me, every day, six to twelve is basically booked out consulting. For me, winning the morning is getting up and just spending good quality time with good quality people and making sure I have a positive impact in that space.

Perfect. Do you have a routine before you get to work at 6 a.m.? I have a routine the night before. So the night before I leave work knowing exactly what I'm doing the next day, which would include session plans, but also just what I want to get out for that person for that hour or that half an hour. And then if I have downtime, so if I do have a cancel etc., I'll know what I'm doing in that hour, which will link back to business plans, all linked back to the impact we're trying to make in the community.

So ideally 6 or 12 is my most effective time of the day and I normally find if I was, you know, if that goes well, then it leads into a quality afternoon and a quality evening. Good, I like that because the way you do one thing is the way you do everything, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, how good. So for the people that don't know you, what do you do? How do you help people? What's your vehicle for doing that? Yeah, so my background is I'm an exercise physiologist. So we do, I suppose similar to what you do at Virtus, in that we exist to, you know, foster behavior change and help people live a healthier, better life.

We just service it in a slightly different market to what you guys do. So we're really specializing in chronic disease management, chronic pain. We spend most of our time with people sort of over 40. So health, rehab and performance would be our markets. But yeah, we like to show people there's a better way and show them how to, you know, feel better, move better, live better. Good, I like that a lot. I'm pretty sure you stole that off Greg Cook, which I also stole off Greg Cook, so play on it. It's a great line, yeah. How'd you get into ex-viz?

Because I guess it's something that a lot of, like the gen pop, don't necessarily know the difference between say an ex-viz, a coach, a personal trainer, a physio, whatever. Yeah. How'd you get into it? So it's an industry which is only about 15 years old. So I think, you know, going through high school it wasn't something that career counselors, et cetera, were bringing up. I initially wanted to go into business, so all my placement students and stuff, work experience at high school was, you know, going out to continuous improvement groups up in the city, and that was where my head was at.

I did PE in year 11, and there was one class where we did a, and I wasn't an athlete or anything growing up, but we did this one 400 meter test, and I beat all the athletes in the class, right? So ran and put distance into them, and then the PE coach or the teacher or whatever she's like, "You got to come and run track." And I was like, "Yeah, this will be fun." So I went and ran track, and one district went to zone, got really into it, and then that sort of led into really enjoying PE, learning more about systems of the body, et cetera.

Finished school, and then was sort of keen to keep exploring down the sporting world, and that led me into surf lifesaving and triathlon and open water swimming and some endurance type sport. And then, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, so I went and studied sport science, which was, you know, sort of the... - That sounds fair. - Yeah, the arts course for kids that like sport and don't know what they want to do. - Perfect. - And then, yeah, just did, wanted to start in the industry as soon as possible, so I

did a cert four in fitness and went and did some placement with Pace Health Management, and sort of really liked the vibe those guys had and what they were doing in terms of the messages they were delivering around, I suppose, physical activity, creating energy, which is what Pace is all about. And then, you know, our whole vibe now is that we exercise for health as opposed to exercising for fitness. So it's about, you know, people that might not necessarily be high performers or, you know, align themselves as physical active people, but they want to improve their health or they want to feel better or they want to decrease their aches and pains, so that really resonated with me.

And then I think that sort of put me on the path to obviously finish my undergrad in exercise science, started working with the PACE group, then went on for further studies in... I thought I wanted to go down the performance world, so I did some strength and conditioning postgraduate studies at Edith Cohen, and then went on to learn more about rehabilitation and chronic disease management with a postgrad also at Australian Catholic Uni, and then, yeah, bounced around in private practice for a while, still in the PACE group, across all things chronic disease management, return to

work, occupational health, we do capacity profiling, pre-employment screening, and yeah, just sort of found my passion in that space, and now that's where I live. We've, you know, the business has grown and the role and the opportunity has grown in that also, but yeah, it always comes back to just helping the person that doesn't realise how they can improve their life with physical activity without it being a, you know, a big exercise thing, but just the little tips and tricks and how they can work it into, yeah, living a healthier, happier life. That's cool. That's a really quick way to go through that huge story.

Yeah. I like it. And that was, that's 10 years, that's 10 years from going from high school to, you know, been practicing now for 12 years. Yeah. But yeah, it was a really, I think, organic sort of progression in that, you know, I was in the sport... Yeah, it was great, because I was like, I don't identify myself as a sporty kid, but then went on to the Ironman triathlon and found all these other things that I sort of enjoyed and got up to... Before that, at that time when you did that 400, did you play any sport or was it just kind of...

Yeah, I did soccer and basketball and swimming and tennis, but yeah, but I was never, you know, never a jock. I never liked a captain on the football team or anything. I just had a, I suppose, a healthy enjoyment for being active, but didn't align myself as being an athlete. Yeah, awesome. So the wanting to go from, like, into business to wanting to go into exercise science, you've obviously now joined the two, running the PACE and Mount Martha clinics. Yeah. What's been the biggest challenge of trying to be a practitioner and trying to be a business owner at the same time?

Yeah, good question. And you can probably answer this as well as I can with the same challenges that you face every day. I think the biggest challenge is always around clarity of focus. So when we have a really clear vision of what we're trying to achieve as a group, as an individual, with a specific client, with a specific, you know, team member, then we can put plans in place to do it. Anytime we have challenges, it's normally when there's a communication breakdown. So if guys and girls on my team don't know where we're headed, or if we don't know where we're headed, or if we're just sort of showing up, then, you know, that's when we're going to have problems.

Yeah, and there's no pre-planning, you're not actually thinking about it, you're not doing your planning the night before us or what your day's going to look like. That's right, yeah. So if we live in a reactive space, then, you know, what we end up doing is being reactive to the problems we face, where if we have a nice clear vision of what we want to do in regards to the communities we service and the people we work with, then, you know, that's where we put all of our effort and that's how we build momentum. I think any small business owner would probably agree that 90% of the problems are going to be people-based.

I was just like, easy to say people-based, you know, you're spot on, you're spot on. Because I guess when you're dealing with, like, especially being in a people business, annotated business like we are, you're dealing with people that are coming in every day to get a service and they've got their own hopes and worries and dreams and shit going on and then your staff are exactly the same. Yeah, that's right. And you've got to kind of somehow manage and deal with each of their wants and needs and get everyone on the same path and service the client at the same time.

And then I think also be true to your wants and needs as well, because it's pretty easy to put yourself at the back of the line. So, you know, you'd find it with Virtus and once you have that really clear vision, you know, getting the right people on the bus and in the right seat, to borrow a cliché, you know, like, that's the challenge. Oh, sorry, yeah. Yeah, but when we do well with that, like, we run faster and that's the whole point of having a good team and when the challenges pop up. Everyone chips in and follows it because they want to genuinely be a part of it.

Yeah, that's right. But then, yeah, what's been the, have you had kind of times where you've not looked after yourself and where you've not kind of put in the extra yards around friends and family and stuff like that? Yeah, 100%. And I know you use that analogy of filling your own bucket and I think there's another analogy people talk about in entrepreneurship and leadership of the servant leader, where it's you exist as a leader to serve the people that follow you. And I really like that analogy because I think it puts a team-first approach. So, if, you know, this is what your guys want to succeed at, giving them the tools and giving them the strategies to make that happen.

I think there's a huge difference between, you know, giving people those strategies and the tools and the outline of how they can achieve A, B and C and actually doing it for them. And I know that any time we have struggles or challenges or I'm overworked or overstressed is when I look away from how to help people get there themselves and just start doing it for them. Yeah, so definitely any time, and it's a double-edged sword, right? Because as soon as you go into micromanaging and overworking and stressing, energy levels decrease, you lose clarity of vision, and then we go down that sort of rabbit hole where, you know, coming back to, well, what's the goal that we're working towards?

How do we empower people to do that? And then that gives you that time to look after yourself and follow your own wants and needs also. Yeah, I think that's incredibly important. That's something that I didn't understand at, like, any capacity, like, for probably the first 12, 18 months of the business. It was just like, well, let's just do it all ourselves. And then now it's like, well, you know, if I can do it all myself, I don't run a business, I have a job, where do I have to be then? Yeah, that's right. And

if I can empower and educate my staff and the people around me to do those jobs, then they're going to be growing and improving, and the business is going and improving, and then I can focus on what levers or things we need to push and pull to get us moving in the direction we want to move in. Yeah, and then everyone wins, right? Because they're not growing as individuals, you're growing as a leader, you're growing as a business, and more importantly, you're making more impact in the community which you service, so, you know, when you

come back to that vision of making a positive contribution and showing people how they can have a healthier and happier life, if you don't have a healthy and happy life, then there's no way that you can show other people how to do it. Like, you wouldn't go to a mortgage, to a financial planner that's broke, would you? So if you're not happy, you can't pass that message along. Yeah, and if you're going to someone that doesn't love exercise, then you're probably not going to love exercise. That's right. It's going to rub off on-- Yeah, that self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. What advice would you have for, I guess, young exercise science students, young interns, people that come to see you guys for placement, which I did four or five years ago? I think your whole team has. Yeah, well, there you go. Yeah, we've had Lachie, Jesse, Simon, Katie, Mitch. Yeah, that's cool. Katie's coming back. Yeah, Katie's coming back. Yeah, which is really, really cool to have, like, I guess, a big crew that's developed from you guys, so thank you for that. But what advice would you have for the exercise science students, for the placement guys coming in and going, "You know what, I don't really know what I want to do."

Yeah, well, I think just appreciate how much you don't know and appreciate the fact that if you haven't tried something, you don't know if you do like it or don't like it. So, no one knows what they want to do at 21. And if you do, you're an outlier, you know? Like, that's the exception, not the rule. So, I think the only way to learn what it is you want to do is by trying things, you know? So, we do a lot of work in our roles in terms of trying to develop specialists, but we also appreciate the fact that to be a specialist, you need to spend three to five years being a generalist.

So, we're really lucky in our company that we have a really wide scope of exercise physiology, so we can get people working with, you know, chronic disease management, chronic pain, return to work, return to sport, return to life type rehabilitation. They can do job capacity profiling, pre-employment screening, etc., etc., as well as health and well-being, you know, mental health. We're doing more and more stuff around disability at the moment, doing stuff with cancer. So, the simplest thing is just to jump into it, right? So, you don't know if you like working with cancer patients, if you've never done it.

Where I used to be massively into working with metabolic-type patients, so that whole, you know, fostering lifestyle and behavior change and making impact in that space. Like, for probably three years, I just loved that and I just wanted to do everything around diabetes management, diabetes prevention, worked in heaps with educators, worked in heaps with dieticians. Yeah, so that metabolic stuff, like, that was my thing. And then, I sort of felt like I'd made an impact and I sort of felt like I'd progressed as much as I wanted to go and almost had to rebrand myself to then become more of a movement guy.

And now, I'm really passionate about musculoskeletal. And the thing I always talk about with people is, like, I feel like I exist to bridge the gap between traditional rehab and performance. And I talk about performance as, you know, like for Bill Bauman quote, "Everybody is an athlete, we just have different events." And I know you talk about that also. So, people don't really appreciate... Someone I know uses that a lot and I'm trying to remember who. Yeah, so we talk about with, like, I know you guys with your Virtus Group training, you have your session templates, et cetera, so you got your main set, et cetera.

I use that with my 80-year-olds, you know. So, all that's different is, like, if you're doing a 150 kilo back squat, my 80-year-old guy's got a 10 kilo weight and he's doing a sit to stand for a chair. As soon as you understand those basic exercise progressions, it's the same, right? It's just smart programming. Whether you've got someone with cancer or with diabetes or someone that's, you know, ready to train at the Olympics, like, ready to compete at the Olympics, like, it doesn't necessarily, the physiology doesn't necessarily change all that much. It's just the way

you program and the way you tweak things and, you know, whether it's, like, you know, stuff like CrossFit or whether it's endurance training or whether it's, you know, F45, whether it's strength training or plyometric stuff. 90% is the same. Yeah, it's all just tools in the toolbox to figure out, well... What's going to work for that person. Exactly, what ingredients do I need for this recipe to help this person get here? And I think that's what, you know, you asked the question about, for the person just starting out in their career and doing internships, et

cetera, like, it's just learn as broadly as possible and find those, you know, those templates or those training rules or those tools in the toolbox which resonate with you and then you can apply. Because, like, I know, like, I'm not a max strength guy. So, as a result, my clients aren't max strength clients. Yeah, exactly. But I'm self-aware enough to know that if someone needs max strength, then Mitch, who works with us, different Mitch to you guys, has the toolkit to be able to take that person there. So we have, you know, we have a professional motocross rider, we have a guy that competes at a national level with water skiing.

I'm not necessarily the best person that they should see in our group. But, you know, that resonates with Mitch. I guess a team that's multifaceted in the fact that they can all add different values to different clients. Yeah, that's right. I was just having a chat with one of our Mayos and, like, knowing that she would be better for some people than our other Mayo. And they'd both be able to help different people differently. So it's really understanding, like, for you, as the servant leader at the top, or at the front, you're able to identify,

well, you know what, you're not going to be better with me, you can be better with Mitch or whoever else, and then you can actually get the best outcome for the client, which is why we're all here. That's right. Yeah. And that's, you know, if you're, when I first started out in business, like, I really saw my role as being a prop head. So I was like, I exist to be here 14 hours a day, and I'm going to run as hard as I can. I'm going to speak to as many people as I can, and I'm going to get their message out to everyone.

And it cooks you. And it cooks you. And then you're useless. Where now I'm like, I'm going to see 10 people today, and I'm going to make sure that every one of those 10 people gets as much value as possible from seeing me. And I'm going to spend some time on making sure that my team knows where they are at and, you know, being able to then impact more. And that's what this year is all about for us, is having more positive impact in growing our message out across the broader community. Because I think it's that whole, you know, to cliche again, - that quality over quantity.

- That's a cliche for a reason. - Yeah, that's right. - I was literally just writing that down now. - Yeah. - Yeah. Yeah, but no, for the intern and for the person starting out, you know, like, appreciate the fact that even if you've done three years at uni or if you've done your master's and your postgrad, you're just getting started. And, you know, where we talk about 90% of the things are going to be the same and you and I will agree on 90% of things, it's those 10% which you need to learn for yourself and then be able to resonate with your clients.

10% is all the stupid shit that people argue about on the internet. - Yeah, yeah, it is. - All the semantics don't really matter at the end of the day. But also, if your 10% is different to my 10%, one's not more right and one's not more wrong. They're just differently suited to different groups. So, you know, like, I know that you have your strengths and I have my strengths and they're different, so how we contribute is quite different. But our underlying knowledge base is relatively similar. So, I think for that person starting out, like, it's just learn as broadly as you can.

And we've had some of our interns have done internships with you. And that set them up really well because they come to us and they have this really nice appreciation of how they can structure a strength and conditioning session and what it looks like to work with someone that's apparently healthy. And then we chuck them in the deep end and give them, like, a metabolic client or a rehab client that's like, "What would you do here?" And some of them, they're just like, "I have no idea." And it's like, well, you do because you already know how to help improve someone.

But, you know, we've just got a couple of contraindications here you need to think about. Yeah, and all they've got to do is tweak it slightly like that 10% and they're, you know, on their way to coaching that person to be better. That's right. And I think, you know, for every person, not even being industry specific, like, working on your interpersonal skills and working on your emotional intelligence and working on your resilience and working on being a lifelong learner. So, like, I've been practicing for 12 years and I feel like I'm just getting started. I've been a business owner for seven years.

And I'm still asking, like, you know, 10 questions a day of how can I do this better. And again, feeling like, you know, everything up until now has been a warm-up in 2018. So, I'm actually going to start executing. And, you know, I'll say that as it's been a warm-up. But we're definitely the biggest company in Victoria, if not Australia. You know, we've had more impact in the industry than arguably any other exercise physiology company has had. We've won practice of the year two, maybe three years. We've won local business awards. So, but even still, you know, like, we're not sitting down and going like, "Yeah, we've done a good job."

We're like, "Okay, well, here's our lessons. What can we do better?" And that's where it's, you know, I suppose finding those people that can be around you in terms of who are your similar mindsets and talking about, you know, you are the five people around you. - And talking to people that, like, I love that. That's the perfect name. But then talking to people that don't necessarily agree with you, that's the best thing. Like, one of my subjective goals this year is just to ask better questions. - Yeah, great goal. - Learn how to ask

better questions and figure out, well, and this helps a lot, like, having these conversations because, you know, "Oh, fuck, I got to ask a question." - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Or, "Where do I go?" And that's, like, even in the last, you know, month since I've said it, it's actually genuinely changing the way I interact with people because I'm actually...the things I'm interested about or I'm not sure about or people disagree, you ask about it. - Yeah, that's right. - And you end up realizing, "Holy shit, we're not that much different. We actually agree on most of the same things."

- Yeah, yeah. - And, you know, then you can move forward to actually get yourselves where you want to get to. - Yeah, but there's always someone, regardless of what you're going through, there's always someone that's done it before and has found a solution. - 100%. - And so, if you're facing a problem, and this is what I reckon all the interns and students and people getting started in the industry, it's like, you're trying to work something out, the answer's already out there. So, you can spend five weeks trying to work it out, or you

can have a group and network, like, a strong network around you, and you can know the answer in five minutes, and then you can start executing on that. - Yeah, exactly. - And then you're going to have to practice and practice and practice, but, you know, ask better questions, awesome, and then, you know, then execute, and then be open enough to take that feedback on board. - Yeah, and if it doesn't work, if you fuck up, awesome. - Yeah. - I just figured out a way to... - What's the next question? - Yeah. - We

had a partner's meeting yesterday, and we had one of our goals was, we want every client that comes through the door, every patient that comes through the door, to have the best allied health experience they've ever had, full stop. - Great goal. - That's our super stretch goal. And so, we were talking about, like, well, who's actually man enough to ask someone, was this the best allied health experience you've ever had? And if they say no, are you open enough to actually take that feedback on? And then, what would it take to make that your best allied health experience?

And then, whatever they say, are you then willing to run hard enough to actually put those things in place? Because so many people are, "Yeah, it was good. Okay, cool, thanks. That's awesome." - That makes me feel good. - That makes me feel warm and fuzzy, yeah. - But if you don't ask that feedback, you never get it. - Yeah. - So, if you actually want feedback from your clients or the people you see or, you know, your... - Just ask, right? - Your staff, whatever. Just ask, like, and I think one of the big

things for interns and people coming up and staff in general is just that, and people in general is just being able to reflect and be introspective and figure out, "What am I actually thinking? What do I believe? Why do I think that? Why are these my biases?" And if they're wrong, like, and you might, you'll figure out they're wrong, sort of, a range of different ways, but if they're wrong, like, change them. And, like, no one likes to change and no one likes to be questioned. But if your goal is to create the best exercise physiology practice in Australia and in the world...

- Experience. So, it's not even that we're going, like, we don't necessarily want to be the best practice, but we want to have the best experience. And that might mean we see 20 clients a week, or it might mean we see 2,000 clients a week. It doesn't matter as long as every single person goes, "That was exactly what I wanted to come here for." - Yeah, that's correct. That's a really cool goal. - Yeah, and then that leads us into, like, our other goals are to do that, we want to have the best team in Australia.

And if we achieve that, we'll have the best brand in Australia. - You'll have the second-best team, second-best best brand. I'll allow it. Speaking of team, I'm going to ask a two-part question. What's been the type of stuff that you've just gone, "Yeah, I have to hire them," or the ones that you've gone, "I'm so thankful I've hired them." What, I guess, values and personality traits do they have over people that you haven't necessarily hired? - Yeah, good question. So, we...I'm going to backpedal one. - We're nuts, mate. - We're reviewing performance, behavior, and attitude, and we rank those equally.

So, performance is obviously clinical knowledge and clinical skill. We see that as being 30% of the equation. Behavior is how you execute on that and how you live and breathe your values, your goals, your beliefs, you know, your wants, your needs, and desires. And then attitude is like, "Do you show up, smile, and make a difference?" You know, like, "Yeah, I know, that's how I celebrate it." - I love that so much. - Like, are you actually engaging with people, and do you have a helpful and energetic attitude which matches our ethos? And if you don't, then it doesn't matter if you're the best clinician in the world, you're toxic, you know?

So, I think...and that, again, comes back to self-awareness. So, if we don't know who we are and what we stand for, then how can we expect our team to replicate that? I think 90% of our recruitment has been placement, which is just basically like a 4- to 12-week interview, and we always just go on attitude, willingness to learn, you know, eagerness to grow, someone that just wants to be a part of the team and will just do whatever it takes to be a part of that team. - Because the other stuff can come later with people like that.

- Yeah, and we know, like, we know we can train people, and we know that we can show them the skill set, and we know that they can replicate it. And if someone's gone and studied at uni for three years, you know, like, they know how to learn, they know how to execute. But if they're not personable, and if they don't want to be there, then it's a waste of time. So, yeah, I think as a result of that, like, we get really positive feedback in terms of, you know, how engaged our team is, you know, and just how willing they are to go on a battle for their client and do whatever it takes to make a change.

And then it's, you know, the service modality is almost irrelevant. So, it doesn't matter if we're working with someone that's, you know, going through radiotherapy for prostate cancer, it doesn't matter if they've got fibromyalgia, it doesn't matter if they're an athlete trying to improve their performance, whatever it is, you know, once we have those interpersonal skills, the action plan is the same in that it's education, it's accountability, it's development of self-management strategies, and then it's just best practice exercise prescription. So, we're showing, this is the recipe to get it done, and then we're going to facilitate that change along the way with you.

And that, you know, we talk with our interns that the exercise prescription is like 10% of the picture, you know. The rest is like, how do you build rapport with that client? How do you support them through those? - I think I need to learn all the science, but, you know, you get people that they learn all the science and actually know how to talk to someone. - That's right, yeah. - And when you go that client-centered approach and actually give a fuck about the people you're coaching or training or teaching, you're going to be there for whatever they need.

- That's right. - And they're going to get to wherever they want to get to. - And that's where, you know, coming back to that, if you're just starting out in the industry, like, build your interpersonal skills, build your emotional intelligence, build that ability to connect with someone. We had...this is like a humble brag story. - Mate, go and ask. - We had one lady, she was in her 60s, she had hip pain, which had been there for years. She'd seen other multiple modalities, and it had just been short-term solutions. - Yeah. - We sat

down, we went through a subjective assessment, we listened to her, found out, you know, sort of what her pain patterns were, etc., etc., took her through some assessments, looked at how she moved. We're going through some stuff, and we're like, "All right, it's probably going to be like a six- to 12-week rehab plan. We need to work on A, B, and C." But at the same time, if you're doing half an hour of rehab a day, what are you doing for the other 16 hours that you're awake, right? - Yeah. - And that's where we put 90% of our focus.

We're like, "This is the three or four exercises I want you to do this week, but more importantly, when you're standing," and we pretty much just taught her how to stand in an athlete position, as in, like, just want you to... We did a payoff press, and then we're, like, ditched the band. - Commanding position, yeah. - Yeah, and we were like, "You know, this is how you actually are meant to use your pelvis, and you're meant to have a bend in your knees and your hips." She came back six days later, and she was like, "I'm pain-free."

- Yeah. - And I was like, "We taught you how to stand, and that's it." And that all just came from the fact that we actually listened to, "Well, when do you get pain?" You know, so I think that is, like, that just trumps everything. And so, that's who we want on our team is the people that will actually stop, pause, work with the person. - And not just go, "All right, here's three sets of 10 of these. Here's, you know..." - That's right. - "Here, we're working up to a heavy five of this." - That's right.

- Not at the gym, or, sorry, not, yeah, when they're not at the gym. So, you know, like, that 168-hour rule, which, like, we use pretty much weekly just to get it through people's heads. Like, if you train three hours a week, you've got 165 hours to do something that's going to take you backwards. - Yeah. And there's a really good YouTube video by Doc Mike Evans. It's called 23 and a half hours. And so, it's all about, you know, what you do for 30 minutes of the day of exercise is the other 23 and a half, what's happening in there.

David Dunstan, who's a researcher for the Baker IDI Heart Institute, so that's sort of leading government research body for heart disease and metabolic conditions. He did a research study, and he took two groups of people. He got one group who were sedentary office workers, so they sat for more than 12 hours a day, and he got them to exercise for 30 minutes a day. And then, he took another group that had, you know, let's say, an industry similar to us, where they're moving throughout the day, no exercise. And they found out that they had exactly the same risk profile for heart disease and stroke, and diabetes, and metabolic conditions.

So, what we talk about is like, you know, if we exercise 30 minutes a day, we decrease risk of chronic disease by 50%. But if you just move throughout the day, you've actually got the same risk factor. So, when we work with people, you know, and the whole goal of exercise physiology is developing self-management, decreasing the chronic disease burden, you know, helping people to live independently. So, for us, like, we're just obsessed with getting self-management outcomes, more so than anything else. So, a big part of what we do is look at, well, how can you actually incorporate this into your day?

And, you know, we look at habits development, etc., around actually developing this lifestyle change. Because we know we get improvements from, like, a 10-minute walk done three times a day, similar to that of a 30-minute walk. But for someone that has an exercise in 10 years, which would be a really common scenario for us, like, it sounds crazy, right? For probably the people that are like, "What do you mean, like, I've been exercised for five days and I feel bad." But for people that are like, "Yeah, I've been exercised since I was 20, and I'm 50, and now they've got type 2 diabetes, increased waist girth, high blood pressure, they wonder why they've got knee pain."

Well, you know, probably don't sign up for CrossFit, right? Like, maybe just start with some calf raises. - Yeah, and that's exactly it. But then when you have that, like, your team is, and, like, our team, what we're working on is having that really good relationship with the client. You understand that, you know, the 50-year-old who's, you know, been looking after his four kids for the last 20 years and working 14-hour days is probably not going to be able to do the same thing as a 50-year-old that's, you know, riding every Saturday down Beach Road and things like that.

- Yeah, that's right. - So, you've got to be able to understand what's going on in, like, as coaches. Like, I want to know every single thing about my clients. - Yeah, that's right, because that's what makes the difference, right? - Yeah, exactly. The coaches that don't have a...and, like, I kind of struggle with the, "You don't want to have a personal relationship with your client" thing. - I remember them talking about that with you with this, and it's just like, "Well, if you don't, then how are you going to help?" - "How do you affect change?"

Yeah, and I think that's what's really hard in ex-vis for grads coming out is you've got this, you know, this 22-year-old kid that hasn't even seen life yet, and they have this person that's 50, and they're not lazy. They just put everyone else first. So, if you've got, you know, that 50-year-old that's looked after his kids for the last 30 years, he's probably worked 50 hours a week, come home, done everything else, never made time for himself, and then you're going, "Mate, you need to exercise more." And it's like, "Well, how about we support this person, get on their page, show them ways that we can help them, and then improve quality of life?"

As opposed to, "Did you know that if you exercise, you decrease risk by 50%?" And it's like, "Mate, just stop reading textbooks and start talking to people." - Oh, mate, that's exactly it. There was one quote in one of the books I just read that I'm trying to find now, and I'm trying to stall, but I can't find it. And it's basically around if others change, it's because they want to change, not because you want to change them. - That's right, yes. - We know that if the 50-year-old's going to feel better and be healthier and probably live longer if they move more, if they don't actually want to change, then they're not going to be able to change.

So we need to give them the tools to do that, and that's their role. - With that being said, if you go on to exercisesmedicine.org.au, there's a really good questionnaire in there around stages of change. So it goes through our pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance, and then our sixth unofficial stage is obviously relapse. - Yeah. - And this is, you know, for pre-contemplation, I'm not even going to show up to the appointment, you know? For pre-contemplation, contemplation, that's sort of like, well, you know, whatever advice you give me, I'm probably not really going to take on board.

So there's a lot of tools we can do in motivational interviewing in developing discrepancy. So, you know, that internal dialogue of, "Oh, maybe I do need to lose weight. Maybe I need to make a change there." There's specific questions you can ask people to make that gap bigger. But then that decision, it does need to be internal. It needs to be them going and asking for help because if we give them all the answers, they're meaningless. If they ask for them and they find them out themselves, then, you know, we're going to get more from

someone wanting to move each day and simply putting their sneakers on than by giving them the best rehab program or the best exercise program in the world. - And it's the same with all your interns and students and stuff. Like, you get people in that just want to take off their hours. - That's right. - They're not going to learn anything. - No. - You get people in there just like, "I just want to soak up everything." - Yeah. - It's like, "Awesome. I'm going to, like, put all my time and effort into it." - And you can tell by the quality of their questions, right?

Yeah. - Yeah. Definitely. Second part of that two-part question from 15 minutes ago, which is more than okay. With the staff you have now, so from the ones that you...to recruit, I guess, the staff you have now, what are the few things that you wish they either...that you know now that you wish they would understand or what are the things that you wish they'd spend more time on to develop and to improve and to help their clients better? - Nothing. My team is perfect. - Good. And this doesn't have to be your team now, but all the staff you've had.

- Yeah. I place a disproportionate amount of focus on client management and client care. - Yeah. - So, for me, you know, the experience and that ability to connect with people is if you do that well, everything flows from there. And I think everyone can do that better regardless of where you're at. - 100%. - So, but with that being said, because I place so much focus on it, they place focus on it as well, and they are naturally good at it, and we do spend a lot of time upskilling in that area. - Yeah. - Yeah, I have no one specific thing.

I think it's just, you know, be a lifelong learner. And, like, I think I feel like, you know, I'm 31 now. I probably only just picked that up in the last year or so where I was big on... Maybe I phrased it different. Maybe I was big on development and achievement, where now I'm big on learning. - Yeah. - And I think being a lifelong learner is different to being a lifelong progressive because I think when it's about development and achievement, it's extrinsic. So, if I do A, B, and C, I'll get this, where if I'm learning, it's for me.

- You'll be better. - Yeah, and we've changed our wording around our goals this year, and it's about making a positive impact. It's about making contribution. - Yeah. - And to do that, you know, it's like, who's the person that we need to be to lead this team and to impact this community? Which is different to, to grow a business to 250 employees, what do we need to sign up for? - And I think that's something that a lot of businesses, like, especially, I guess I talk to a lot of people like my age or early 30s and stuff that are building businesses now that that's their focus.

- Yeah. - Because, you know, it's not about, you know, just getting people to work for you and slave away for you. - Yeah, that's right. - Because you want people to be following their hopes, dreams, and passions as well. And you want them to be, like, to use the start with why thing. You want them to be following their why and working towards their why because that's what gives you the best outcome. - And it's, yeah, and it's changed dramatically the landscape in the last even 10 years where, you know, they talk about, like,

find a minor grinder, where it's like, you know, the finder is the old dude that's put the business together, the finder is middle management, the grinder is the poor new grad doing 80 hours a week. We're now, so we do a lot of stuff in leadership. And one of the stats they presented to us was that at the moment, the average employment length is 2.7 years. - Yeah, which is... - So it's not long, right? - Yeah. - So if we've had people on our team for, you know, almost double that, like, we're actually doing amazingly well.

But the reason people leave is the grass is greener. So what they do is they come into this new job and they learn for six months, then they get to sort of apply it, and then maybe there's a progression. And then what happens is when they get to that plateau, they look over the fence and go, "If I did there, I'd get more money, more progression, make greater impact," you know, which is most of the time perceived. And they jump ship, go to the next thing, and as a result, you know, we sort of just end up hopping around.

- Yeah, every fence you look over, the grass is greener. - That's right. And the grass is green is where you water it most, right? - I like that a lot. - Yeah. - So then when you're looking after your staff and your staff looking after each other and, you know, then it becomes this, I guess, symbiotic relationship where everyone wins. - Yeah, that's right. - Everyone drives towards the one spot. - Yeah, and I think with, like, Simon Sennix obviously leading the charge in this space of, you know, how to create engagement. And it's

not, you know, it's not just a bigger business and stepping up the rungs of the ladder, but it's different challenges and different groups you're working with and creating impact, etc. So, you know, how do we drive towards that type of movement as opposed to just run harder, run faster, run longer? - Because then everyone gets to the end of the week and you spend two days of sleep and then you get back up and do it all over again. - Yeah, and then you're not feeling your own bucket, as they say. - 100%. Good. All right, I want to talk about your training a little bit.

Obviously, I'm going to go a little bit different. I'm going to go from now backwards, right? - Yeah, cool. - How has your training changed as you've gotten more into business and more into being a practitioner and more into, I guess, leading your team? - Okay, cool. Do you want me now or me as an athlete? - Yeah, give me you now and then we'll go back to the athlete. - Yeah, cool. - So, me now is probably at work 50 hours a week and then at home, main hobbies are probably around renovations and housework type stuff.

So, I think I'll get a lot of incidental type activity. And then with history of a triathlete, I do like to still have a run, a biker swim, but it's not a Monday bike, Tuesday run, which it used to be. Now, if I feel like going for a cycle, I'll cycle. If I feel like having a stretching session, I'll stretch. - I like that. - The majority of my stuff at the moment is incidental, and then knowing that I probably need to have one to three times a week where I have a 30 to 60-minute session where I'm focused on something.

But, yeah, it's habit-based as opposed to structure-based. - Yeah, I like that. How does that change from back in the day when you were flying? - Yeah. So, for me, I suppose I use movement now as a way to feel healthy, feel energetic, to then, you know, live a life of impact in the business world, and also live a life of intent in the personal space. When I was training properly, it was 15 to 25 hours of training plus body management, etc. So, in that time, I was working probably 30 hours a week and had

management at Mornington, so I sort of stepped away from the business for a couple of years to focus on sport, which was, you know, every bit of data gets logged on Strava, weekly reviews with the coach, planned from, you know, my whole year in terms of the phases we were working on, you know, probably 250 to 300K a week on the bike, you know, swimming 12 to 15K, running 50 to 70K with, you know, like a three-hour run at four-minute 30K sort of thing. And then, I remember coming home from one run and got home, and it was around 40K in, like, two hours, 59, 59 or something.

I come through the door, it was when we were living in Mentone, so the run was on the Melbourne Ironman course. I come in, and I'm like, "I'm cooked." Like, "I'm just cooked," and I walk through the door, and my partner, Calista, she's like, "Hey, you got to hang the washing out," and then we're leaving in 45 minutes to go to this family barbecue. And I was like, "Okay, what can I do? I'm cooked." And then we get to the barbecue, and it was upstairs, and I was like, "This is just not sustainable," and I think that's...

Every Ironman athlete goes through that. They know they have a certain window of time where they can focus on working towards that goal, and then it does become a selfish sport, and, you know, it's that whole achievement versus impact argument. - Yeah, I like that a lot. How many Ironmans did you tick off? - Only did one. - So you only did one. - Yeah. - A little bit more. - No, so I did... So I did short course triathlon when I was young, and did the national circuit and went to Worlds and all that

sort of stuff, and then got into adventure racing for one or two races, and then had a break for, like, three or four years, and then went back and watched some friends doing Melbourne Ironman the year it was at Frankston, and I remember seeing guys that I used to race against, and so when I did short course, like, would normally podium or at national events sort of go top 10 and top 15, and seeing guys doing really well that I knew I'd been ahead of in the past, and just thinking, like, "Well, you know, if they..."

Yeah, that's right. I was like, "If they can do that, I can probably do that." And then, so spent 12 months getting ready for Melbourne Ironman, did my first marathon in there, did a couple of half Ironmans, had a really successful year, picked up a few sponsors and stuff, and then did Ironman, came 10th in the Ironman, missed Kona by 14 minutes, so sort of attribute 10 minutes to that of some issues on the bike, so then sort of left there with, like, "Okay, well, this could be a thing that I'm good at," and yada, yada, yada, and then spent, I don't know, a bit of time getting ready for...

I was going to do Busselton nine months later, ended up sort of overtraining, getting sick, took some time off, delayed that Ironman for three months to come back and try Melbourne again. Melbourne ended up getting cancelled. That was the year they had the clash with the Grand Prix, and then so rescheduled to Busselton the year later, so sort of had this, you know, trained for a bit, got sick, trained for a bit, that event got cancelled, lost a little bit of motivation, came back, trained for sort of three months, couldn't get back to that mindset

of being able to commit 25 hours a week, and then just sort of went, like, "I want to be focusing on business, I want to be making an impact in the community," and I remember going, like, I'd work on a Thursday six till ten, I'd consult, I'd have to be out the door by ten past ten, I'd go on cycle for three hours, run for one hour, and then have to be back consulting four till eight, so I had a six-hour gap to fit in four hours' worth of training, plus eight, et cetera, and I

just remember going through that, jumping on the bike and being like, you know, these are all the ideas I had for the business and the things I wanted to do, and then finishing my run and being, you know, training for four hours plus consulting for eight, and then going, like, how am I going to execute on these ideas, and it just, you know, got to the point where I was like, do I want to be an athlete, or do I want to be focusing on a clinician and a business owner, and that sort of won

out, and that was sort of around the same time we bought our house, and I was like, "Oh, I need to become an adult now and pay a mortgage," and now my weekends are mowing the lawns and painting the house and all those things. - All the fun stuff. - All the fun stuff. How did you go making that decision? Was it a, "Yep, I know what I need to do," or was it something you wrestled with for a little while? Tough question. I think it was a bit of an identity thing in terms of,

like, like, I knew I had the potential to go sub-nine for an Ironman, and it was looking out to do that, you'd be on the podium, and you'd be going to Kona. So all the data sort of suggested it could potentially get there if I did the work, and then it just sort of had that identity of, "This is what I want it to be," just became further and further away from what my values and my beliefs and my needs, wants and desires were, and it just became this bit of discrepancy, and I just kept

coming back to, well, what I want to be doing is developing teams, working with people, like, I play an educational role across the whole pace group, and that was the stuff that was getting me more and more excited, as opposed to sitting on a bike for 200 k's by myself on a Sunday and then coming home and having a nap for two hours, you know? Yeah, I think it's a chapter in my life, and it always will be, but, you know, the decision was fairly organic by the time I got there, and yeah. Yeah, I

like that, and like, we've spoken to a couple of people who have gone through the same thing, moving from different sports, and I kind of went through a little bit with moving from VFO back to local footage, is like, isn't kind of in the same ballpark, but I definitely felt like, I was like, shit, this is, um, and I like the way you put that, 'cause I was like, I'm losing a part of me in a way, but I'm focusing that energy on something else, so I'm gaining another part by having that kind of chapter, that one chapter closes, another door opens kind of thing.

I think that's a really, really good way of looking at it. That would probably be the one thing, coming back to your question earlier, that I'd like to have known when I was 18, of going, your life is not this one permanent thing, it's these multiple chapters where you have input, and it, because you're doing something now, doesn't mean you can't do something later. And I think when you're going through school and through uni, the question everyone asks is, what do you want to do when you grow up? And it's like, I don't know what I want to do on Sunday, mate.

Where if we have, well, what are you focused on for the next 18 months to three years? And especially when we look at, you know, if that's the average employment length, that sort of tends to suggest that we can't really look past two and a half to three years. So I think, I wish back then I'd known, okay, well, this is what I'm going to focus on, and that's what's going to make me happy. And then when I look back on that, I can be proud of that chapter, as opposed to, you know, I need

to get a house, I need to run a business, I need to be an athlete, I need to spend time with friends, yada, yada, yada. And you have this, you know, lack of clarity of vision. And as a result, we end up doing a lot of things at 70%, as opposed to reaching out. And then, you know, like looking back, I think. - Like, you know that, like, athlete's an easy one, but you know that athlete phase is going to end at summer. - That's right. - Because it has to. - So you know that

you need, like, all of those lessons you'll learn are not going to be worthless, they're going to be something you move into that next phase in your life. - Definitely, definitely. - That's a really important one for people who are going, you know, I don't necessarily love my job, I'm just going to float through, we'll like-- - Contribute, make impact, learn something. - Move on. - Transfer the skillset. - Yeah. - And I think as an athlete, you know, as in any sense of the word, whether it's, you know, someone doing their first triathlon or

someone playing under 16, 40 or whatever it is, anytime you're focused on that, there's a skillset in terms of the discipline, the planning, the execution of achieving that goal or achieving that thing, which then, of course, is applicable to uni or business or relationship or whatever it may be, and I think the difference from doing something well to doing something exceptionally well is, like, it's only a couple of things you need to lever on, and that's, you know, looking retrospectively, going from a top 10 position to a podium finish, it's not that much extra work,

it's maybe an extra bike session a week, so if you could have four hours a week for one year to look back and go, I was a podium Ironman versus I was a participant, of course you'd do it. It doesn't mean your whole life, you know, you might earn less money that year or whatever it may be, so I think that's an important message to learn, and then, yeah, just that theory of impermanence. - Yeah, I like that. I read a little post yesterday that I haven't put up yet, but it was from Ray Dalio's book, Principles, which you're about to read, which is amazing book.

- Super stoked. - It was, you can have virtually anything you want, but you can't have everything you want, so if you decide that you want to do that extra four hours a week, you can't earn as much money because you're not at work. - Yeah, that's right. - You can't spend as much time with your family. - Yeah. - And there's certain times in our life where one of those answers is the right one and the other one's wrong, and then there's other time, or wrong or less, yeah, whatever, and there's other times when

the other one's the right one, so it's just about living where you're at now, rather than going, well, past Mark wanted to be able to do that, present Mark doesn't. - Yeah. - It's okay. - Yeah, that's right, and it'll change again. Looking forward, hopefully one day I'll be a dad with kids, and then if I'm coaching soccer on a Sunday, that'd be awesome. I probably won't be sitting on a bike for 200K at that point, but it's different chapters, and that's the whole, I think Oprah Winfrey has that quote as well, just to put it up there with Ray Dalio, you can have it all, you just can't have it all at once.

- Yeah. - Which is perfect, right? So knowing and I think that comes back to that self-awareness of what are the things that are gonna make me happy, and what are the things that I'm willing to suffer for, because anything that's worthwhile having is not gonna be easy, so if you're willing to suffer for it, then it's probably a good goal, if you're not, then you probably don't want it enough. - Yeah, definitely. Do you think, or what are the things that you've, going from that chapter to the chapter you're in now, what are the things you learned from your, I guess, athlete chapter that you use daily now?

- I think the importance of clarity of vision, so knowing what you're working towards, which comes back to, you know, it starts with why. - Yeah. - I think having a plan which you can execute, and then you therefore have the ability to measure that, so you can tell if you're being successful or not. - Yeah. - And I think the importance of a good team around you, so I think, so I heard Michael Klim speak last year, and he was talking about he's in business with milk and co., and then he said the similarities

for him as an Olympic athlete was that he had a team of experts around him, so if he wants to be successful in business, he needs to have a team of experts around him, and then they also need to record everything, and they need to have good data, which they can then make decisions on, which, you know, if we're just guessing as we go, and we're sort of not really sure what we're working towards, then we sort of decrease our chances of being successful, so. - 100%. - And I think then that skillset transfers to

everything else, you know, like if you want to buy a house, and you don't know how much you can borrow, and you're looking at million dollar properties, but you can only borrow 500 grand, then you're probably not gonna be successful. - Yeah, so probably talk to someone who's, that's their bread and butter, that's what they do. - That's right, which is getting your team of experts, right, so you'd have your mortgage broker, you'd have your partner, you'd have a budget, which is your plan, and then you'd measure, you know, am I saving $200 a week towards my goal, and if you're not on track.

- Do I need an extra 80 bucks a week to get there? - That's right, have I gotta work Saturdays, have I gotta do some labouring for a mate, whatever, you know, whatever that thing is, and I think once you're really self-aware, and once you're really clear on what it is that you're working towards, then the little distractions just become smaller and smaller, because they don't really matter. - Yeah. - You know, when I think, when we don't have something we're working towards, it's like, you know, you just say yes to everything, and you're just trying to sort of fill that void.

- Yeah, yeah, and then the procrastination sets in, and you just float between eight different things rather than executing one, - That's right. - and executing the next one, and executing the next one. - Yeah. - Who have been the people that you've looked up to over the last, say, 10, 12 years? Who have been your mentors, people that have helped you get to where you're at? - Good question. In a coaching sense, Clinton Watson, so he was very good, and he is all about a simple life, so he's very much about, like, what's the one or two things that you wanna work towards, and then just pushing into that.

Obviously my business partners in terms of mentors, so Ryan, Paul, and Ash Gardner in the early days, so they sort of set me up for, I suppose, the vision of what we're working towards now, and yeah, and then at a micro level, and anyone that's, I suppose, had something that they wanna achieve and have achieved it, so I probably don't have that, you know, what's the one or two people that I continually look towards where, you know, we were talking about before having that, multiple conversations, and those people change, so if I wanna grow and

change, like, if I just speak to the same five people, then it's, you know, that's who I am, but if I wanna sort of stretch and grow and develop and finding that next person, and that's, for me, that's probably ever-changing, in that, like, I'm a big believer in, you know, spending time with people that are older than me, spending time with people that are younger than me, yeah. - Yeah, and that's the cool thing about, I guess, having new, yeah, it's a good answer, because, like, everyone around you, like, I can't remember, one of my

mentors used a term, a user saying, everyone else's hindsight is your foresight, so, like, someone else fucks up, you don't have to fuck up as well. - Yeah, that's right. - You don't have to make the same mistake, but you'll learn from their mistake. - And it's the whole thing we said before, right, with whatever problem you faced, someone's probably faced it before, right? - Yeah. - But when it's us, we catastrophize it, and, you know, no one's ever torn a hamstring before, and it's like, oh, well, it's probably not a bad injury to have, because there's, you know.

- Yeah, there's a significant amount of data around it. - Yeah, exactly. All right, I've got a bunch of questions for you. - Cool. - They can be as short or long-winded answers as you want. - Nice. - First one, have you had a defining moment? - Have I had a defining moment? - Yeah. - No, I think it's a series of defining moments which shapes who you are. - Awesome. - Yeah. - What's your favorite fun fact? - My favorite fun fact? Do you know all polar bears are left-handed, and that's why unboxing the term southpaw is a left-handed boxer?

- Did you just make that up? - No, it's dead-set. - That's genuinely a thing. - Did you know that also polar bear's hair is hollow, which is why it's lightweight, and it's also clear? - There you go. Why is, do they look white? 'Cause it's like, why do they look white? - I think it's clear, and when you put lots of clear stuff together, it looks white. - Oh, good. - Google it. - Good. What else do you know about polar bears? 'Cause-- - How long have you got? - That's probably the most secret quotes I've heard about polar bears, facts I've heard about polar bears ever.

- Did you say, what's your favorite fun fact about polar bears? Was that the question? - Yeah, I think that's the question. - Yeah, of course. - What's your favorite animal? (laughing) - If money wasn't an issue, and you couldn't fail, what would you do with your life? - It would continually change. It would probably start with travel. It would probably involve something around property. - Yeah. - And it would probably involve working with people, either in a health-related role-- - Awesome. - Or in a mentoring role, or in a business-y coaching, strategic-type role. Although, I don't have the skill set to do that yet, so that would be my-- - I think you'd add a lot of value.

- That would be my super stretch goal, would probably be the business coaching. - When do you know you have the skill set for something like that, though? - When you have the results to back it up. So when we have clinics right up the east coast, then we'll talk. - So you've got things you need to tick off, and then when that happens, then you'll know you'll be ready. - And probably more importantly, when people start asking you questions, and you're organically adding value. - Yeah. - Yeah, but I think it would develop. I don't think I'd do one thing for the rest of my life.

I think it would be a series of chapters. - That's a good answer. - Thank you. (laughing) - If you could be remembered in one sentence, what would it be? - Do you want a cliche line? - Yeah, sure, give me a cliche line, and then wing another one. - Someone that made impact and lived with intent. - Yeah. - Although I'm not sure if that's true at the moment. I think it's something that needs to be continually worked on. - Yeah. - Real answer, I probably don't care. (laughing) - You'd be dead all the time.

- I'd be dead, it wouldn't matter, yeah. If I'm being remembered, it means that I'm done. - Good. - Probably how I perceive myself more than other people and perceive me as more important. - Yeah, I like that. What's success to you? - Do you know, I've listened to some of your podcasts, and so I knew some of these questions that were coming, and I knew this was the one that was gonna stump me. To stay with the theme, it's making impact, so it's helping people based on my skill set, and I think when we

talk about contribution and how do you value that and how do you help people, I think at a micro level is like, if I help one person today, then that's been a good day, so that's success to me. I've got a healthy relationship, and I have a good family and good friendships and a business which is successful enough to allow me to live the life I wanna want. I wanna want, I wanna live. So for me, success at the moment is probably more being able to live with intent, being able to add more value, being

able to have impact and contribution in the community I live in or service in, and then being able to explore the things I wanna explore, so I'm really excited to start looking into Buddhism this year as one of my goals, is the whole dukkha of life is suffering and the theory of impermanence is, at the moment, that's exciting me, but in 12 months, it'll probably change. - Yeah, that's really cool. Have you read Man's Search for Meaning? - No, but maybe, maybe it can be a borrowing. - It's all about insignificance and how important suffering is to, I guess, humans and life, and life kind of stuff, very interesting.

What are you most proud of? - Tough question. - Yeah. - I think I'm naturally an introvert, so I'm not, I don't put my achievements out there. - Well, start patting yourself on the back of it. - Yeah. (laughs) Probably my belief has shot up. I think 90% is showing up, so in terms of anything I've ever done in sport, and I went top 10 at the Ironman for age group. I've done a sub-three marathon. I've done a 117 half. I've had some sporting achievements, like I won the age group Bloody Big Swim, which is an 11K marathon swim.

I've had some things in sport, which I'm proud of. I've good friends and relationships around me, which I think is important, 'cause I think that speaks to your own character. But I think my ability to show up, and when times are tough in business, which anyone that has small businesses, it's not always easy. I've been there for 12 years now, which is four or five times the average. So probably the relationships and the reputation I have in that space is what I'm proud of. It's also where I feel my greatest potential lies in terms of, like I said before, I feel like I'm just getting started.

I feel like I can make more impact. I feel like I can upskill and develop more people. I feel like we can help more people. So ask me in 12 months, and I'll see where we're at. - I like that a lot. On the flip side to that question, what are you most ashamed of? - I think everyone feels they should do more. So I don't wanna say our business should be bigger, or I should've gone to Kona. That probably is a regret, is that I didn't qualify for Hawaii but again, that was the choice I made, so that's ultimately on me.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't tend to look back at things either. I'd be ashamed if I'm not living presently. So anytime I'm micromanaging and stressed, that's a bad mark. - Bad mark. This is kind of a two-part question if you want it to be. If you could travel anywhere in the world right now, where would it be? Second part of the question, is it a trip you've already done? - Oh, good. It wouldn't be a trip I've already done because I think until you've been everywhere, I'm not real big on going back to places because you don't know what you don't know.

There's a Mark Twain quote where if you don't travel, it's like only reading one page of a book. - I love that quote. - Yeah, it's a good one. I've been to South America, but I'd probably go to the spots I hadn't been, would be next. - What was the best part of South America? - Machu Picchu. - Awesome. - Yeah, the Inca Trail School. - I'll be there in like a month. - Yeah, nice, awesome. - Can't wait. - Awesome. I've got to look at the next question. If you could invite three people to dinner, dead or alive, who would they be and why?

- No answer 'cause it'll change every week. - Right now. If we were to have dinner tonight, who would it be? - Don't know who I'd invite. I'd invite myself. - You're already going, mate. - No, no. - Oh yeah, I see where this is going, good. - I'd invite myself. Well, at least I'd be there. But three other people and view myself through other people's eyes. - Cool. - Because I think self-awareness is such an important skillset in the modern world. And I think it's almost like, what's the color red? So you can ask someone, are you self-aware?

And they're like, man, I'm the most self-aware person. You know, like I'm the most humble person you've ever met. I'm super modest, yadda yadda. But I think until you have a different perspective, how do you know if you are self-aware? How do you know if you are? Like I like to think I'm energetic and driven. But if it's you versus me, you might be more energetic and driven than I am. - It's all relative, right? - Yeah, so I think, yeah, maybe three people that I respect and see myself through their eyes. - That's a great answer.

- Thank you. - That might be the best answer I've ever had to that question. - Really? - Good for you. - Four, that puts a bit of pressure on this next question. - This, I want you to be like really succinct with this answer 'cause this is something that like, I can't remember what it was. We talked about it for like 25 minutes. But if you could go back to school, knowing what you know now, and add three to five subjects to the curriculum, what would they be? - Three to five subjects. - Yeah. - The first one would be personal development.

So it would be teaching kids emotional intelligence, resilience, self-awareness. The second would be, to stay on topic, something around Buddhism. So it would be about the theory of impermanence. So knowing that you're gonna have chapters in your life. Knowing that it's better to fail and course correct, because I think so many of us make a decision and think that it's permanent. So going, you can make a mistake here, and it's not gonna affect the rest of your life. It's never, you know, like that. And then once you know you have chapters, then how to actually get the most out of that time.

Looking at, you know, the whole life is suffering, suffering is life, which is not a pessimistic view, but it's, just read a book, Saltwater Buddha. It's by Jamal Yogis, and he compares life to surfing. So he says, if you wanna be a great surfer, like you've got to enjoy paddling and you've got to enjoy the suck, right? So if we think of life as surfing and life as suffering, like 10% of surfing is catching the wave. The rest is, you know, like paddling out, learning about tides, watching swells, checking wind reports, et cetera. So, you know, if you don't enjoy that stuff, you're probably not gonna be a great surfer.

What else around? Like an operating manual for your body. You know, so nutrition, exercise, stress management, just knowing, like what are the, 'cause everyone thinks health is hard, but it's actually really easy. And that's the whole, if you wanna change your life, you gotta change your diary. So knowing how do we actually structure a couple of really powerful habits. Are you writing that quote down? - I'm writing that quote down. - Yeah, you know, so what's our biggest bang for our buck in terms of, if I've got 10 minutes, is it meditation? Is it, you know, meal planning?

Is it hydration? Is it, I'm just gonna go outdoors for a walk, whatever that thing may be. But appreciating that health is actually not that hard, and giving kids the tools they need to do that. And then that can go wherever they want. They can put that in performance, they can put that in disease management, they can put that in rehab. Those are really my subjects. What, change your life, change your diary? - Yeah. - It's not. I don't know who, I don't know who the quote, yeah. It's based on the whole, you know, we can't manage time, we can only manage tasks.

And then, you know, don't prioritize your schedule, schedule your priorities, you know. So if we know that I need to do half an hour of exercise to just be a healthy individual, not a fit individual, but just healthy, well, like, you better put that in, you know. Because if it's, you know, like, Jocko Willinkie talks about 5 a.m., no one's in competition for your time. But if you're not a 5 a.m. person, 12 p.m., and just let people know that 12 to 12.30, that's a non-negotiable, that's your time. And then that links into business as well of, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that'll talk about, like, 6 a.m.

to 12 p.m., I'm working, that's when I'm most productive. You better not contact me in that time, because that's when I'm trying to make change and make things happen. And then from 12 to six, that's when we can work on projects together, but, you know, in terms of, you know, where you have greatest impact and where you have greatest clarity of focus, comes back to that self-awareness is, you know, that's when you don't want people coming in. And there's Cal Newport, he talks about deep focus or deep work, and he talks with, like, little micro-glances are killing us.

So, you know, to get into a level of deep work or deep focus, like, takes time, and it's that thing that you work on for, you know, two to four hours without a distraction, because you love it and it's your passion, but the little checks of your phone or checks of Facebook, it's like, it's not the 60 seconds you lose, it's the five minutes after the micro-glance where your brain's then catching up, yeah. - That's where you get super tired because your brain's having to kind of recalibrate every time. - That's right, yeah. So I think the more people that know that from a young age in terms of, like, what the actual, you know, operating manual is, the better.

- Awesome. - That wasn't that succinct. - No, no, that's why I have to say it, because it's, like, I could have podcasts on it. Like, I think it's a really interesting thing is to, you know, when you're 20s and 30s, what you wish you were taught at school. - Yeah. - Or, like, for me, I was, I can't remember why I was having a conversation, but it was around, like, when I have kids, like, I don't want them to learn the same shit I learned at school. - Yeah, right, 'cause it's wrong, right? -

Yeah, exactly, I want them to learn, basically, everything you just said, how to move, you know, how to be nice to other people, how to have gratitude and have perspective and understand all that stuff from a, and yes, they can learn it at home, but when they're spending, you know, 40 hours a week at school, whatever it is, it's an interesting one. - Yeah. - 'Cause I, yeah, I hope school, the school system's different by the time that happens in a, that's a long time away. - I've got one more subject for you. - Yeah, go.

- Communication. - Yeah, good. - Yeah, so how to have personality styles, leadership styles, communication styles. - Yeah. - And this is gonna be our last sentence of how to keep it succinct. (laughing) - Do you have a mantra? - At the moment, win the morning, win the day, but it changes. - Yeah. - It always changes, every week to month it changes. - Yeah, I like that. Bunch of favorites to finish off. - Yeah. - Favorite book? - I'm not a permanence guy, so it changes. Most recent book was Saltwater Buddha. - Yeah, good. - And I'm reading, what's it called, Tribal Mentors at the moment, which I'm enjoying.

- Yeah, I like that, it's a good book-- - And I'm looking forward to principles. - Yeah, game changer. It's a good book to jump in and out of. Favorite music or recording artist? - No, doesn't, not one standout. - There you go, favorite podcast? - Favorite podcast, The Virtus Podcast. - The stuff of it. (laughing) - I like the Gary Vee Show, because I have a short attention span and I shot episodes. - Yeah, very, very, very valuable, like even, I don't listen to it all that often, but I can jump in every now and again.

- Yeah. - And it's just, yes. - It brings me back to what's important, which is vision and execution. - Definitely. Favorite movie? - Got a couple, I like Blow with Johnny Depp. I like Warrior with Sam Worthington. - Yeah. - There's a couple more, let's go with those two though. - Favorite way to spend a Sunday afternoon? - Sunday afternoon, it would be something at home and it would be around friends or at the moment doing stuff on the house, but again, working on impermanence, you know, so we did, was that a course a couple of weekends ago and it was What's Your Perfect Day?

- Yeah. - And I had like five perfect days. - Yeah. - I was like, I'm not prepared to only answer one thing. So, yeah. - I like that a lot. - Yeah. - Favorite dad joke? - Favorite dad joke. (laughing) So there's a guy walking down the street and he's got two pineapples in his ears and someone goes up to him and goes, "Hey mate, you got two pineapples in your ears?" He goes, "Mate, I can't hear, I got pineapples in my ears." (laughing) - Yeah, good. (laughing) Let's bring it back to some sort of seriousness, last one, favorite quote?

- Favorite quote. Can it be win the, actually no. - No, give me one freshy. - Dukka, which means life is suffering in Buddhism. - Good. I don't know. Any more for any more? Anything else you'd like to add? How can people get around PACE and get around you and-- - So we're just launching a new social media campaign. - Awesome. - It's gonna start in about a month, which might be now when the podcast has been there, potentially. - Yeah, that'll be pretty close. - So @PACEHM for all the socials. So it's gonna be

on Facebook and Instagram and the whole goal is that we're building a digital community, a place where people can go to get the right advice for the right condition from the right exercise professional. So we're not a fit-spo. We're all about how do we show people how they can live a healthier, happier life by moving more, moving better, moving what's right for them, which I think is a double-edged sword in that it's less than people think, but they also underestimate how strong you actually need to be to live in this modern world. So so much

of postural aches and pains is a result of movement dysfunction and I think people neglect what they need to do for basic maintenance, but once they know that operating system, it's easier than they realise. - Yeah, I like that a lot. Good for me. - So that's what we're gonna be trying to push out on the socials. - It's exciting. - Yeah. - It's all happening. Mate, thanks for coming on. - Thanks for having me. (upbeat music)