S1E37 · Kelly Ruecker & Daniel Marascia: Medicine and Life

Hey guys, welcome to the Virtus Performance Podcast. This is episode number 36. Before I get stuck into the guests, and they get stuck into me a little bit, I want to thank all you guys for listening and if you have been enjoying the podcast, please rate it, share it, subscribe it, all that kind of stuff. Get around us because we're trying to make the world a better place, one listener at a time. Well, that sounds kind of kooky. Anyway, so today I sat down with two of my best friends in the world, Dan Morasha and Callie Rooker, two absolute superstars who I've known for a long time.

They have just finished studying medicine so they spent the last four years of their lives at university and a couple of years before that doing undergrad learning how to be doctors, not nurses, not radiologists, so yeah, there's two doctors in the house. They're two lovely people who kind of think deeply about life. Callie does, I know. Dan doesn't. He's a very superficial human but we were able to kind of delve into why they do what they do and what they want to get out of it and why they jumped into medicine and we had a

really cool conversation about health and about how they actually want to make changes and I guess the areas in which there's voids that need filling in the industry and what we can do about it. And if you guys are interested in, I guess, the process that it takes to become a doctor, we went through that at some point and then it kind of descended into rabble at the end, which was always going to happen. So I hope you guys enjoy it. I hope you guys can sit through the next couple of hours. If you can't, it doesn't matter, just go to next week.

My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Daniel, Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Hello. Hello. So exciting. I've been waiting for this one for like three years. Oh gosh, you haven't even been doing podcasts for that long. Podcasts weren't a thing three years ago. Weren't they? Probably were. Yeah, that was a common thing.

Do you two listen to podcasts? Yeah, we do. Which ones? Well, I do. Which are your main ones? I do. Yeah. So, well, recently I've been listening to more philosophical podcasts. Oh, you'll fit right in here then. I'll fit. Kelly's quite smart like that. She enjoys philosophy and thinking and... I actually, I listen to a really good podcast on the way home from your house the other night. Good. Talk to me. So it was Waking Up with Sam Harris. Oh, what a man. One of my faves. And it was about thoughts on death and dying. What was that like?

It was really good. It was a nice driving podcast. It kept me awake, which was nice. Summarise the podcast for me. Basically, we don't think about death enough. Death is the most inevitable part of life, really. And so you should live each day thinking about death and taking that into perspective with your everyday activities. So, making the most of every day. I really like when smart people put across a sentiment you've always thought about. They articulate something better than you ever could. Well, I've always thought why are people so scared of death? Let's not get into religion.

Funnily enough, religion is a common theme amongst a lot of my podcasts. Well, we're already there. And you'll understand my view on it from back in the day. Things have changed a little bit. Oh no, I like religion. Actually, I purchased a book a couple of years ago. A book. Just one. How does the head wobble on him? Hey, I read a book. I actually got from the start to the finish as well. I'm so ready. I did not judge it on its cover. Actually, it's quite a nice cover too. I did judge it a little bit.

Get to the point, mate. Religion for Atheists. Nice. By Alan D. Button. Going into it, I thought it was going to be digging into religion and religion is stupid. Which is the sentiment I had when I was young and naive and immature. Then after reading the book, I was pleasantly surprised at how some aspects of religion are actually really quite important. The idea of the book was just highlighting how these aspects of religion can work in a secular society which we generally live in. It's a pretty easy thing for us as mid-20 year olds who have kind of been thinking about life for a couple of years to start to get our head around.

But I'm sure we've probably had conversations when we were 17, 18, 19 about it and just being like, "Nah, sucks. Shit on us. Don't like it." Yeah, definitely. But now we're able to think about things a little bit more critically and understand that, hey, there's good and bad in everything. Not so black and white. When did you guys start thinking about religion? Because for me, it wasn't that long ago, I don't think. It was probably more when I started listening to podcasts, actually. I'm probably pretty similar. It was never something that we talked about that was really a thing growing up.

It was something that I had a problem. Not a problem, but cognitively, I couldn't get my head around it when I was younger that it was a thing. It's just like a guy in the sky telling you what to do things. But we have a really simplified view of it. Praying and telling that guy in the sky to look after you and things like that. For me, that was and in areas, still is, the kookiest shit I've ever heard. But at the same time, I probably didn't start thinking about it and talking about it other than knocking it until probably two or three years ago.

And mostly, especially while doing this podcast, which has only been six months. Yeah, I guess I was a little bit different. I don't know how you guys were, but we did RE in primary school, religious education. It was never something I really liked or anything. It was just something we did every Wednesday morning, whatever it was. I don't know, I kind of grew up knowing what religion was and a bit about it. But it wasn't ever Bible bashing or anything. It was more, I think they used it as a way to teach you lifey type things.

I remember one time in grade five or so, with this trust exercise where the RE teacher had an ice cream tub. And you had to close your eyes and put your hand in there. And you had to trust that God was doing the right thing and there wasn't something bad in there. And I think maybe this starts, shows when I was probably quite a pragmatic person. And I was just like, there's not going to be something stupid in there. We're at school, they can't do that. There was a snake or a spider. Next minute, scorpion, you're dead.

Bam, Kelly, listening to you now, talking about death. Crushed the hospital. And it ended up being a chocolate frog, so... Treat yourself. Go me. Trust it in myself and my pragmatism. So God's giving you a chocolate frog. Attaboy. I think they call that bribe. We had RE at school, but I was in the nun group. So growing up, I didn't have a religion. Was it N-U-N or N-O-N-E? 'Cause that looked funny too. See, I was quite confused by the whole thing. And so I thought I was nun for a bit. That's the best. Mind you, all we did in the nun group was drew pictures and did color.

How old were you when you were doing that? It was primary school, so I was totally like prep and grade one. Here's the interesting thing about, the first thing I think about, who put you in that group? Who decided that was your group? I don't know. Not Kelly. I think probably it was my parents. So the first primary school I went to was in Caulfield and there's quite a diverse religious population, I guess. So you had Jewish people and Christians and Catholics and stuff, so everybody got split up. And I think that my parents must have just been like, "Oh, we don't really have a religion."

So nun. She can be a nun. It's a nun life for me. She can be a nun. Yeah, that's quite good. I was very confused by the whole situation. That's tricky, yeah. What was it like growing up in a very diverse area? Because I guess we didn't. Dan and I had a very... There were shades of white. Yes, but that's it. Lots of shade. Lots of imagery. Lots of shades and that's it in a fairly Caucasian population. I don't know. So we lived in Caulfield until I was about 10. Bit too young to understand. Sorry? Bit too young to understand.

Yeah. So if diversity is all that you know when you grow up, you don't know that it's diversity. White is not anything different to white. Yeah. So after we lived in the 'burbs, we then moved to Warrnambool when I was 15 and that is very, very white. There's no diversity. Dan has a pretty funny story about a guy that he works with that lived in Warrnambool for a little bit. Talk to us, Dan. Tell us the story. Well, this is only a recent story. This has come up just in the last couple of days. I met this guy at work and yeah, he lived in Warrnambool about 15 years ago.

He's Asian for even ethnicity and he was there studying I think he said about 15 years ago and he's just saying like so, so white. Even he would go out on the weekends and I think there wasn't much. There's not much to do. There wasn't much to do in Warrnambool and there still isn't much. Hey, there's whales. There are whales. They come in a certain time of year though. There's cheese whales. Best milkshakes. There are the best milkshakes. Okay, there's a few things but Nightline related. Yes, this is a plug for Warrnambool. If Tourism Department of Warrnambool is listening, you're welcome.

Wonderful Warrnambool hashtag 3280. It's just the end of the Great Ocean Road. Now we're sidetracked. Anyway, he was saying that every weekend what you would do is go to a house party. That would be the go-to. And these were his mates who were invited to these house parties but inevitably he would always get into a fight. Someone would pick a fight with him for being Asian and being different and he just said it was a horrible place for him to be. And it's kind of sad to think that because I mean, coming from being white, we quite enjoyed Warrnambool.

It was a lovely place to be here. Someone having that sort of experience there. It's kind of sad to think. I guess understandable when you see some of the types of people that are there. But his perception of how he was treated and how he was raised and what he had to deal with is his reality. And even though two people can experience effectively the same place at the same time and have two completely different experiences depending on who they are and things like that, it's pretty horrible. But at the same time, if you're on the other side and you have a positive experience, it's not horrible.

Yeah, well it depends on which part of the world mate. Let's not get into that. I think it comes down to empathy and perspective and those people who do better in the world are the ones that can see or can understand what it's like for someone else to be in that situation. Did he stay in Warrnambool? No, I don't think he was there for very long. He was just studying there. So I think he said he was there for a couple of years or whatever. I'm sure the majority of people in Warrnambool are quite nice if we're implying anything else.

What was a lovely place? And I think it definitely would have changed now. I think people are much more accepting. For the most part. Well I think that hopefully, I like to think the world is getting a lot more accepting. Well yeah. Australia voted yes and the parliament agreed. Yeah we did. Good for you guys. Go us. Alright, so I haven't even asked my first question yet. I don't know why we started talking about that. But first question for both of you. What gets you out of bed in the morning? Usually an alarm clock. Good. Usually Dan gets out of bed before me, after me, so I'm the one that gets him out of bed.

Nah. Nah, I mean, oof. Gosh, that's a really hard question. I don't think I've ever really thought about it. Think a little bit more philosophically than my alarm clock because here are the most common answers. My alarm clock, coffee, my partner, food, my cat, I've got to go to work. Alright, so let's think a little bit, let's delve a little deeper than that. I think probably the superficial things will get you out, is what you're saying. But like, if you think about it, work or study is being probably what's literally got us out of bed. From a philosophical sense, Daniel, what gets you out of bed?

Yeah, but like, if you think back in New York, once you've finished your studies you can kind of think, actually quite enjoy what we were doing. And perhaps that is the reason what got you out of bed every morning, because sometimes it sucked. I think sometimes it doesn't matter what you're doing, how much you love it, sometimes it sucks. But if you can take yourself out of that and sit down and think about it, you'll probably really, really, really enjoy it. And that's what gets you out. Otherwise it's the same. So you're just loving what you do and enjoying it?

Yeah. Good? Maybe, I don't really know. Calv? I think that that's a pretty good answer. Calv's still his answer. I know, I wasn't going to. Yeah, gosh, I think that for me it's probably more about having a purse. So, you know, I'm a generally pretty lazy person, if I didn't have to get out of bed then I wouldn't. I don't like the term lazy. We'll carry on, we'll talk about that later. Okay. Maybe I'm very destructible. Yeah. Fun fact, knowledge bomb, quick knowledge bomb. Okay. So I'm listening to a book at the moment called Understanding Women.

Listening to a book. Yes, audiobook, man. 2017. They might not have them in Warrnambool. Now that you're back in Melbourne, welcome to 2017. I'm running to it, yeah. So it's called Understanding Women and it talks about how, and obviously there's a spectrum. Can I ask a question? Why? What prompted you to start listening to the book? There are a lot of women in my life and I want to make sure that I understand them. One of my staff members, Jess, kept banging on about it for a while and I want to be able to understand,

I guess, doing this podcast mostly, but just my own personal development, understanding human behaviour, why we do the things that we do and why we have the behaviours that we do and why we react certain ways, why we act certain ways and whether it's condition or whether it's whatever, I have a deep want to understand why. Okay. So that's the reason I've started reading this book and one of the things that, I'm only a couple of chapters in, so I'm still in it, but it talks about awareness and focus between girls and guys and how it varies.

Guys have a very single-minded focus whereas it's just bang, I'm working on this. So you go shopping, for example, and it's I'm going to buy shoes, I go buy shoes, I go home, that's it. Whereas girls have what they call a diffuse awareness where it's I go shopping and I want to buy shoes and ooh, perfume, ooh, this, ooh, that and you're constantly focusing on everything around you, right? And it's all based around kind of the hunter-gatherer mentality that's kind of instilled in our DNA that if you're going out and gathering, you need to be

able to look at every part of the meadow and see what's happening and understand what's going on if you're looking for berries or whatever, whereas guys, they're focusing on hunting one thing. So it's all based, like the first couple of chapters is all based around that premise and I find that really interesting now that I've read that and heard that to start, like obviously when you read something, you start to notice that stuff, that cognitive dissonance, that you start to notice everything around you but yeah, it's really cool to pay attention to what's going on at work and what's going on at home and to see that diffused awareness in action and that single focus in action.

Yeah, I think, oh gosh, this is going to be like a counselling session in a minute. No, I agree. That's what it's all about though. Yeah, so Dan and I have had a lot of, I guess, conversations and arguments at times about things around the house, like noticing that the floor is dirty or something like that and that probably does come into play a bit because I'll be like wiping the bench and look at the floor and be like, oh, it's really dirty down here, whereas Dan will be like, oh, I wiped the bench, I did good.

I was going to say when you were talking about that, that's what I thought straight away. I think I'm very task driven, like give me a task and I'll do it. But I disagree that I wouldn't look around for other things. No, but your focus would move from that other thing, right? Well, I think in that sense, if we're taking the house as the analogy, cleaning would be the task. Both of you close your eyes for a second. The cushions on the couch to my left, to Callie's right, what are they doing? How will they sit?

Callie, could you tell me? Well, I put them there earlier today. Dan's been hooked. Although, I think that I sat there at one point. On the couch. Anyway, they should be like next to each other, overlapped a little bit. Dan, is that correct? On the left-hand side of the couch. Well, they were before. Well, right-hand side. I sat on the couch briefly and started sitting there, after an arduous day at work. Answer the question, mate. I think that I agree with what Callie said they should be. All right, so you just picked up on Callie's answer.

Callie, you're spot on. So they are set like that. But I don't necessarily know if Dan, if we would ask him first, if he would have known, right? So maybe, maybe not. But I find that incredibly interesting that, like we were talking about experiences before, that two people can experience the same thing but get two different things out of it. Yeah? You're looking at Lachlan very physically. Do you not agree? I don't see where you're going with this one. You're so task driven, you just focus on the one thing we're talking about. Be a little bit more defused, mate.

Be a little bit more defused. Dan's more focused on sitting on the couch rather than the placement of the cushions. Correct, correct. No, that's not true. You guys need to read this book. Anyway, it's super cool and if you don't get anything out of it, you don't get anything out of it. But I really, from a, I like to understand how I think as well. And I think for all the females out there, if you can understand how you guys think a little bit more, you can realise that you're just a ball of crazy in that.

Look, I say that somewhat jokingly. Somewhat jokingly. Yeah. I mean, if you have to write a book on understanding it, then something's gone wrong somewhere. Women are too hard to understand or men are just too dumb to understand. Well, it's probably a bit of both. I buy into the theory that if we try and communicate with someone and they don't understand what we're trying to communicate, that it's purely our fault. So if I try and explain to Daniel about the cushions and he doesn't understand and he's just a little obnoxious and he tells me that,

shut up, I know what the cushions are like, then I haven't explained my point properly, which is why I'm handballing it off to the author and tell her. I think I have a personality as well. Yeah. Because I think I have a more passive personality. So if someone was explaining something to me and I couldn't understand what they were saying, I would think that I'm just not understanding what they're saying as opposed to... Would you then question it though? Would you have the... Oh, of course you have to. Otherwise you'd be... Always? Always. So yeah,

so if Callie tells you to clean the floor after you've cleaned the bench and you haven't done it, then if you don't then clean the floor, Callie obviously hasn't communicated that well enough of how important it is to her that you clean the floor. But I think cleaning the floor is very important. It's a very important task. This has just turned into like health discounts. Yeah, a little bit. I like it. I like it. All right. So let's change the track of the conversation a little bit. What have you two been doing for the last four years?

So yeah, so for those of you who don't know us, Dan and I have just finished studying medicine. Bravo. So we're now doctors. Outstanding. We're not pharmacists or nurses or... Doctors. Doctors. Anything like that. We're actually doctors. Radiologists. Is that something you get a lot? Yeah. Really? All the time. Yeah. What are you studying? I'm studying medicine. Are you going to be a nurse? Especially as a girl, I think. Oh yeah. Yeah. You probably... I don't know. You might've got it less than I did. Yeah. It's usually... Oh, what does that mean? What happens after that?

That's an interesting one. Because as soon as someone says medicine, for me, it's just doctor. Yeah. But you know us. You know people that have studied medicine. Yeah. That's true. I guess some people wouldn't know a doctor personally. I now know two, if anyone's wondering. I must assume they just appear to know one. As a doctor. Yeah. We could study doctoring, I guess. That's what they could think. How's the whole experience of studying medicine been compared to what you thought it would be? I don't know. I guess for me, everybody says that it's going to be hard work, but I don't know.

You just... I don't know. I'm sort of in two minds about this. So yes, it was really hard. There were some really shit times where all I wanted to do was give up. Third year in particular is at Deakin, at least. It's a very difficult year. You sit your really big exams. The whole year comes down to two days of exams. Yeah. And it's just a bit shit. But another part of me, now that it's done, was like, "Oh yeah, it wasn't that bad." You just get it done. Yeah. It's like human nature. People are always like, "Oh, you must be so smart.

You study medicine." I don't think that I'm particularly smart. You know what? I'm not. I know Dan's not smart. We definitely know that. I think you just apply yourself and you get it done. Like anything. You can do anything if you set your mind to it. Yeah. It's all about application, I think. I remember undergrad. I think we've always spoken about this. Undergrad's three years with maybe eight weeks of hard work. You study two weeks before each semester's exams. That's when you work hard. Boys medicine is like that on steroids. What kind of steroids? Corticosteroids. You're working at that level for an extended period of time.

It's not about being smart or there are people who are really smart and things come easy to them. Oh, absolutely. There are people who I probably consider myself to be and Kelly as well who are just harder working and it's all about application. You just apply yourself at a higher level for a longer period of time which is tough. There are tough times where you feel the term is burnt out. But I think that's with anything. That's not to say that people that do an undergrad course in arts or something never feel burnt out or never feel like it's really shit.

Everyone has those times. It's all about context. You know what you've done before and so you can see that it's harder than undergrad. If you've only done undergrad before, you don't know how hard it could get. I'd do terrible in an arts degree. Why? I think you'd be okay. The point is people have their areas where they're good at. You're good at medicine. Science. Stuff like that makes sense to me. One of the things, I was talking to Katie about this once about hard work and she said to her brother once, she said, "I'm not smart.

I just work hard." Her brother said to her, "There's no difference." I think it was a couple of years ago we were talking about that, but I'll always remember that because it genuinely is. Yes, some people are naturally more intelligent than others, but whether you apply it or not is up to you. If you apply it and apply yourself in something, whether it be a medical degree or an arts degree or whether it's working on the tools. Exactly, working on the tools for 12 hours a day. If you apply yourself in something, then you're going to move from where you are now to where you want to be.

It's a hard thing for people to get their head around, some people to get their head around. A lot of people, it's just natural, but if you want to get anywhere, you need repetition. You need to work hard over a long period of time. It takes time. It takes blood, sweat, tears, all that kind of stuff. I kind of like that sentiment, it's quite nice. Write it down. Yeah, put it in the fridge I reckon. Put it on a t-shirt. Write it on the wall. Everywhere. Yes, the wall. Do you think, and this is something that I've been thinking about with uni, Cal, do you think you could do it again?

It's a weird thing to think about, would I do it again? No, sorry, could I do it again? Which of course you could. Do you mean could I do it again starting four years ago, or could I do it again starting now? Starting now, because the reason I ask the question is because I feel as though if I went back to uni now, I would be like, this sucks, get me out in the real world every day, and that would suck. It would be hard. I think that it's hard, because Dan and I are in

a period now where we're not yet working, so we've finished uni, we've finished our exams, we've passed, we've graduated, done all of that, so now we're just waiting to start work. So yeah, I mean I could probably do it again. Would I want to? Not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. I'm so ready to be paid. Yeah, that's true. Could I do it again now? Probably, but once I start work, probably not. Yeah, yeah. But I mean medicine's an interesting field though, because you never, well I mean it should be like every job ever.

You never stop learning. So now that we've finished medical school, we then go on to further training and that thing in specialising, if we want to, your GP's still a specialty in itself, so you still have to do a training program, just apply for all the GPs out there. Yeah, good from you guys. Like this is something that obviously I've learnt over the last four years with you guys going through it, but for everyone out there listening who don't necessarily understand what a medical degree involves, and then obviously a couple of years afterwards, talk us through the process.

How does it work from starting uni to your specialty? So Dan and I did it post-grad, which means that we did a uni degree before we started, so in my case I did exercise science. Good from you. And I studied biology. Biology, yes. And so from that point of deciding, oh yeah, maybe I want to study medicine, you sit the GAMSAT, which is a pretty big exam, and it goes for about eight hours. I mean, it's an aptitude test, but it's also a knowledge test as well. You're meant to have some sort of background science knowledge.

Good for you, Kelly. That was good for me. You did it? Yeah, I did it. I fluked it, but that's okay. What's the pass rate, or how many times do people usually sit it? Because it's not one of the most people passes it. It's difficult. It's not really like a pass mark. But in terms of failing or passing, if you're a student of fire. I guess to put it in some perspective. It all works out on a bell curve. I was going to say, you sit the test and the Melbourne Showgrounds and the big exhibition pavilion building there, and it's just full of examination desks.

And that's full, and that's Melbourne, and it's all around Australia. And they sit them in New Zealand as well, and you can do them overseas in London and a couple of other places too for the Australian admission. And what, maybe like 40,000? I don't know. That's a big number. Let's go for something rather. 4,000 is more reasonable. I don't know. There's a lot of people. I could be 40, though. I don't know. Yeah, obviously not many people get through like in Victoria. I guess Melbourne take like 400, 300, 400. But there's some people that have sat that exam six, seven times.

Yeah, there's a story that one guy that we went to, or I think it was a couple of years above us or whatever, who sat the game set, got in on his seventh go. That's insane. Yeah, that's dedication. Mate, that's some resilience right there. Yeah, great resilience, yeah. Yeah. So you both passed the game set with flying colours. Oh, sure. Yeah. So that was my second. I did it twice. I did it twice as well. Yeah. Which I think is pretty common. Yeah. And so you sit the game set, and then you use that score to apply to all of the medical schools in Australia.

And if you're good enough, they give you an interview. And then if you're good enough in the interview, then you get a spot. In terms of the process of medical school itself, so usually there's a preclinical component. So you sit in a lecture theatre and you learn about the pathophysiology and all of the sciencey stuff behind it all for one or two years, depending on the school. And then you have your clinical component. So you spend time in the hospital being a junior member of the medical team or surgical team. And you just follow the doctors around and you help out with their jobs and you see patients and you learn by doing, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then do you want to keep on going? Yeah, keep going. And then so now that you've finished uni, what's next? And so we have a year of internship. So we're a very baby junior doctor. And we're allowed to work in a hospital, but really the majority of our work is like paper pushing, organising tests for patients, maybe working in the ED, although you do have to work in the ED for a period of time. Yeah, because it's not just one area. You have to go through all the different rotations, right? Yeah. Basically with a backbone.

Without us, the whole hospital falls down. We are the walls, we are the... Yeah, sure we are. Why not? Why not? Hey, take it. For the next 12 months, take it. Or you'll be taking it. Yeah, definitely. Multiple times without. You do five rotations in intern year and you have to cover ED, a general medical rotation and a general surgical rotation as well. And then the other two are just whatever. And then from there you kind of, once you've done your internship year, you kind of start figuring out what you want to do when you grow up.

Yeah, exactly. So for most people that includes another couple of years in the hospital at least. Even if you want to be a GP, you still do a couple of years at the hospital and then you get accepted onto a training program and you're working while studying for exams and that type of thing. And then eventually you become a consultant. Or a boss. Or a boss. And that's when you get paid the big bucks and you can charge your patients. So for everyone that whingers about doctors getting paid so much, how many years would it take you to get to that big boss status?

Kind of depends what specialty you go down. So it varies quite a lot. So like, I guess on one end you get GP and everyone probably surgery. But the two real different ones. GP, you spend the two years in hospital first, by that time you get onto the program and then you start working with what they call a GP registrar. So a registrar is a person that's on the training program in that particular specialty. And then from there a couple of years, maybe like four maybe? I'm not really sure exactly. I think it's three or four.

Three or four years before you become a consultant GP. So if I decided tomorrow that you know what, I want to follow in my hero Dan Kelly's footsteps and become a doctor, I've got 10 years ahead of me before I'm a GP, really. Before you're a fully qualified GP where you can open up your own practice and what so ever. That's all the time. Yeah, and if you want to be a surgeon, which is probably on the other spectrum of much, like really competitively onto a program, it might take you that four plus years just to get onto a program and there's still that extra training you have to do once you're on that program.

Do you two know what area or have an idea of what area you want to specialize in as of yet? And I'm sure you've been asked this question a hundred times. I'll answer for Kelly. Do you want to answer for each other? That could be cute. Yeah, so I think, I mean, knowing Kelly, she's a very caring, compassionate person. All the qualities you'd want in there. You've still got to clean the floor later. She's a great, great person. Which means I want to be what now? No, Kelly wants to catch babies for the rest of her life.

She wants to be working up at 3 AM because one of her patients has gone to labor. Yeah, why not? Yeah, she wants to, well, I was going to say do pap smears all day, but that's not going to be the idea. She wants to put in intrauterine devices. Sorry for all of those people that get a bit squeamish about vaginas and uteruses and other womanly parts. We're going to be able to talk about those things. Kelly. It is a really important thing to talk about though. I don't know. All the cervix. Sorry? The cervix. Well, use the next 30 seconds as a public service announcement for all the females listening.

Is a new form of cervical cancer screening a bad idea? Because there's a perception out there that every five years it's a bit lackluster. No, so the screening processes have improved, which means that the screening has to happen less often. And less invasive too. So yeah, it's sort of just the same. It's like a normal pap smear. Except they use a different brush, that's all. Well, there you go. So you still get a special... You should be across his head. You still get a special insert into your vagina. Only every five years. No, so the cervical cancer is very slow growing though, so you don't need to worry that it's lackluster.

That was like the concern. I know. People were worried that the government's lost money and haven't got any time to screen everyone, so they're doing it every five years instead of whatever it was previously. Definitely. We have lived very different lives for the last couple of years, I feel. Well, you haven't heard of this? No. Okay. No, I haven't. But maybe I should. In general, the people are so reluctant to talk about something either sexual or something that might be perceived as a bit gross, like bowel motions or urine or... Everybody poops. Yeah. Everybody poops. Everybody goes to the bathroom.

I was convinced for a long time that girls... Half the population has a vagina. You're what? I was convinced for a very long time that girls didn't go to the... I genuinely don't feel as though that's hyperbole at all. I just wouldn't believe it. No, gross. Girls can't do that. I just think that people need to get over themselves. If something's wrong, then you need to say something because we can't... As doctors, we can't read minds. We're pretty amazing, but we're not that amazing. Didn't you come to class? Sorry? You were sleeping in that morning. That was a lecture.

The reading mind lecture. But I think that's such an important thing to go like if something doesn't feel right or you don't feel right or something's going on, talk to your doctor. I've got a question for you, Lachlan. This is my backfire, actually. But when was the last time you went to a GP? I ran into my GP. Down the street. Like genuinely two weeks, couple of weeks ago, and I was walking... No shoes on like I have now. And I was walking on gravel and she's like, "Put your shoes on." And I was like, "Wow, that's a doctor."

What a caring doctor. She's a superstar, but she's moving to ocean groves. I'm really upset. A bit selfish. Fair enough. But it's like surf and stuff, whatever. But yeah, genuinely, it's been a while. Just to go see a GP for the sake... Why? But that's the thing. Like anything and being in the health sphere, people come and see you when they have pain or people come see you when something's wrong or very few people will seek me out as a strength coach and a performance coach when they go, "You know what? I just want to be better."

They can seek me out when something... When they've been injured or anything because everyone's bulletproof till they're not, right? So answer your question. I don't think... I've never gone to see a GP just for a checkup. Yeah. But can you do that? Like is that... Of course you can. But can you go, "Hey, nothing's wrong with me, but I just want to know if everything's all right." Like that would be a weird thing for me. I do agree. It would feel weird because the first thing that a doctor says to you when you walk through the door is...

What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Don't say it like that. What's brought you in today? What's wrong with you, mate? But yeah, I've only gone when I need something and it's always usually been football related. Yeah. Do you feel like you have no problems in going to your GP though if something was wrong? If something was wrong, I would have no issues. But I have a really good relationship with my GP because of the football connection. Yeah. And she's local now. She was local. She is for like two weeks. Yeah. Is that why he wasn't tired?

Yeah. I've got to find a new GP now. It's really upsetting. Yeah, she sounded quite good. Yeah. So if you two could take that process along. Sorry. It's another six years away. Oh, get stuff on. But that is seriously, like I don't feel as though I would, I'm not a hypochondriac by any stretch of the imagination, but it'd be, I'd love to come to you guys. Actually, the last time I went, I went to get blood tests. I genuinely sought her out because I said, look, I've got, I'm working a lot. I've actually just remembered. I'm working a lot.

I'm like flat out at work. I'm trying to play football. There is nothing wrong with me right now, but can we just get some blood tests to see if I'm missing anything? But that's from someone who's in the, in the health industry, looking at my holistic health and wellbeing and going, you know what? I need to make sure I'm taking all these boxes. What were you worried about missing? Whether it was something nutrition wise or whether there was, whether I wasn't getting enough sunshine. I don't know. I don't know what it could have been, but I think I got my testosterone and stuff checked and cause I wasn't sleeping a lot.

Like all these things, all these markers that I was just like, I just want to make sure I'm okay. She called me. She's like, yeah, we're all good. And that was it. So I didn't actually look at the results, but yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting one. Like from me who, someone who wants to, I want to optimize my health. I don't want to just be okay. I want to optimize my health. I'd love to be able to come to go to my doctor and say, Hey, what's some, what's some cool stuff that we

can test to, to help me make sure that like I'm ticking all the boxes and to make sure that I'm not only ticking the boxes, but I'm like, you know, filling my cup in all the different ways I can and whether it's a new, something I can be taking nutritionally or something I can be doing differently, it'd be cool to be able to do that. I like to, I guess this could be perceived as a bit naive, um, if any doctors are listening that I would like to think that if I want to become a GP that, um, I would offer that service for my patients, but it's not something that you get taught and, um, gosh, I don't know.

Like I suppose back to that point before people do go into a GP with an issue that they need fixing. And so, I don't know, I imagine that in your 15 minute time frame, which is, which I feel is always the first problem, but anyway, those types of issues are going to be really tricky to tackle. I was going to ask you, Dan, do you have a GP? No, I don't have a GP. I knew the answer to that question. I was just going to wait out straight under the bus, cool, carry on. So that's, that's close, huh?

I was going to, I found that quite interesting about you talking about going to the GP to get some tests done too, because you want to know how to optimise yourself. Um, to me, that kind of just like the first thing that comes to my mind and I understand where you're coming from is like wasted money. Okay. From who's point of view? The world's. Okay. That's the first thing that comes to my mind, I wouldn't say it's going to take up my mind completely. This is the thought that pops into my mind because like, maybe

that comes from the fact that as Kelly was saying, like, you know, in middle school, you learn how to treat unwell people saying, and like I said before, we don't get never to lecture on or get a tutorial on how to treat the healthy person, but this stuff you can do for preventative health and talk about things, but it's not necessarily, you know, like, we'll check these markers and see how you're doing all these things. Do you think the system then is fundamentally broken if we just treat and don't prevent? Oh, of course. Definitely. I

mean, there are measures, there are preventative measures out there though, so things like pap smears are a preventative measure for sparkle cancer, you know, um, there's cardiovascular disease risk profiles that GPs can do. Um, yeah, but it's something, but it's, it's, and then of course it's on the person to seek it out. But for a beautiful specimen, stop it, stop it. There's not really, I'll put a photo for those listeners that could do a skin check and very fit. Stop it. But I think it's like, so do you guys have a range of lectures on what in my world I'd call holistic health and wellbeing.

So complimentary medicine, not complimentary medicine, but, but so, so for example, right, if someone comes in and says, I've got a headache or I'm not feeling well or anything, would you talk to them about, and I'm going to go through the list of things that we tick off with people. Um, do you guys talk about training and nutrition? Do you talk about daily movement? You talk about like hydration, sleep, um, sleep quantity, sleep quality. Do you talk about their stress levels, what they do for work? Do you talk about, um, whether they spend time relaxing, just talk about their relationships.

You talk about their energy levels. You talk about their time management, like, do you think, do you, do you, like, do you talk about their, like, I know this is a little deeper, but do you talk about like job satisfaction, all those kinds of things? So I would say your role is to find out why they're getting the headaches and usually the most common cause is a stress headache or they're just dehydrated or like, yeah, like I'm just picking things out. So the problem is like, it's hard to speak when you don't have any experience and this is like more of a what you're taught kind of deal.

Yeah. So you, well, I mean, you get taught different things at different levels though. So like at this, this stage you're taught to like find out why they're getting the headache and say that the common, the common cause is stress induced headaches. Then the next logical step would be to work out why they're being stressed and if there's anything to do, you can do or can be done to prevent those headaches and alleviate that issue. Yeah. How do you do that in 15 minutes? Which is like, it's a really hard one, right? Yeah. Yeah. So

I guess from my point of view, as someone, some kind of in the industry, part of your industry, I, we used to do one hour introduction sessions, right? And for me that was grossly inadequate just because we can't, one, get to know someone, two, check if they can move, three, talk about all their history, like four, talk about their lifestyle, and five, have them actually, like us actually talk to them about what we want to do with them. So we've changed that to a three hour one. So it's three one hour sessions over a couple of days.

And we found that it's been, we're able to kind of touch on everything, but even then it's still up to them to act on it. And I think for me, if I was a doctor and I had 15 minutes with someone, it would be so frustrating to have someone come in with a headache and go, they go, Oh, what do I, like, I need something for it. I need anybody. So I was like, not necessarily for a headache, but people would probably come in and say things like that. And it's, you know, yeah, you've got a stress induced headache because you're running yourself to the bone and you're not actually drinking water or hydrating or doing all these things.

So yeah. I guess that's where the role of follow up appointments comes in. Um, but also, you know, as a doctor, you're kind of, and a GP especially, you're kind of the middle person, right? Like you work out what's going on and you work out what's going wrong and you send your patient off to then the appropriate people. So like if we were working on the Peninsula, we would send them to Virtus or. Great plug. Great, great plug. But, and that, and that's something that I coop, um, who works at Virtus. We had a really, really good, good chat about kind of that role the other day.

And we were saying that, I think we've had to chat a couple of times because yeah, it's such a freaking good idea, but I genuinely feel as though there should be like a, I don't know, I still can't figure out what it could be called, but like a professional referral, right? So if we get the spectrum of health and medicine and we go the whole, the whole spectrum from all this go from medical to performance, right? If we're on the medical side, we have all the different practitioners that have their own different roles. We go

the performance side, same thing in the middle, we've got, you know, you've function some stuff, so physios and osteos and myotherapists, all that kind of thing. Gen pop people. And I said, Gen pop, cause that's a term we use, I'm sure you guys might use it, normal patients, right? Lay people. Wow. Wouldn't, wouldn't necessarily know who to see for certain things, right? I have people come to me and say like, I just went and saw my doctor, I've got a sore hamstring or something like that. And I'm like, uh, you probably should have gone and seen a physio cause they're trained in movement, right?

I got a cold, like you're not going to go see a physio. Yeah. I would hope that a GP would recognize that though and be like, Oh, you should go and see a physio. Yeah. Yeah. But then a GP might've had a bad, bad like, uh, inference with a physio at like when they were 18 and then they might go, nah, physios are no good. Like just like a really, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would hope that GP's aren't as narrow minded than that. But all right, so let's go to the narrow minded thing. Like what do you guys think of the other doctors?

The chiropractors. Like again, the other doctors, I'm not actually sure which one of you guys studying what a doctor or a chiropractor or a chiropractor, chiropractors are doctors of course. So do you know any chiropractors? Personally no, but is that preference that you know, personally, I just, I, I, so obviously there's a lot of bad in every, I mean, I've heard it's quite that breaking work. Yeah. Good. Yeah. That's why I didn't get in. I might just pop into a chiropractor, but that's sticky neck out and get in there. Serious conversation day. But the way

I've kind of like, I have, I've seen a chiropractor once and before he actually assessed me, he asked me whether I wanted a payment plan or not. And that was my first like, like, would you rather pay for all eight sessions up front or one at a time? Like we haven't even had a chat yet about what's going on and obviously there are some amazingly good chiropractors and there are some not so good, same with doctors, same with performance coaches, but exactly right. So some of the people I look up to most in my industry,

whether it's like health, health function performance industry, like obviously they're all overlapping, but some of them are chiropractors, right, but their ability to identify, well, part of chiropractic is incredibly kooky and doesn't follow. Part of it is stolen, is taken from different, uh, peer reviewed literature that actually follows follows the right, right stuff. And then part of it's, they've devised their own way of trading, but the way I look at it, right, if it makes people feel better and people actually change and people adapt and you actually move the needle, then you're doing the right job, right.

So whether they're chiropractors or physios or whatever, doesn't really matter if you're getting the outcome that you're looking for, but in, but in saying that, like I have a bias to not send people to chiropractors because of the, uh, the thing that, what happened to me. Right. And I have a, you know, I have certain physios that I'll send people to and certain physios that I'll say, Hey, you should go see this guy instead. Yeah. Um, but it's all about finding people that you trust in. And I guess the thing I struggle with, with so many different overlapping practitioners is it's hard for me to know sometimes who to send someone to.

So I can only imagine someone that doesn't spend their whole life studying and in that area, how hard it would be for them. Yeah. But I think that's where your GP role comes in. Yep. Um, you, the example of the person previous that attended their GP cause their hamstring was sore is that was an actual story too. Yeah. I bet it's a very common story. And like, I think both of us in our GP rotations would have seen people with musculoskeletal implants and that there's some that you can, you know, like simple things that you

can easily help the patient with because you train to a certain degree in that, but obviously there's someone that you said that a physio who is much more capable. Yeah. Um, I guess that's what I was saying is your GP's role to be able to refer on and sort of understand where this patient should go for the best care they can receive. That's why GP's have the hardest role and they're so undervalued. Um, you know, like they have to know in their area, um, you know, who the best people are to refer to. Yep. They have to know, um, when to refer, what they can deal with themselves, when to bring them back or within 15 minutes.

It's insane. Yeah. Luckily enough, there's a new, um, health pathways, which is a new initiative, um, which helps GP's. So it's made like, so you break Victoria up into health networks and so each network has like its own pathway where to refer and who are the specialists to refer to. So it's a lot easier. So like literally what you do on the website is you say, Lachlan's come in with a sore knee. Um, so as a doctor, you work out what you think is going on and then you diagnose and refer according to the best practice in that area.

So it would be like, you know, like say you had osteoarthritis in your knee, refer to a physio, but also refer to the orthopedic surgeon and refer them blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And that's what tells you who is that, who's in the area that you can refer to and yeah, I like that. Yeah, it's great. It's a fantastic idea and it's all peer reviewed and like, um, and that's the way I think medicine should be is because we're not going to find like one person that's able to do each, each practice in its job, right? Yeah.

Like the performance coaches are probably the closest you'll get, but in all seriousness, like it's, it's so hard and I think I'd love to see GPs that like from my point of view, trained in movement, right? Because then you're able to go, well, this person doesn't have like a sore back or they have a sore back, sorry, but it's not because of their back. It's because their hips don't move. Well, I think we were a great example of that guy in Warrnambool, Murray graves. He's a, a musculoskeletal physician, so he could be a GP, um,

but the majority I would say like, I don't know, he'd be like, nah, he was having patients if not more, um, like musculoskeletal patients and like he, um, yeah, he's all over it. Like he's, we were lucky enough to learn from him. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Does he want to move to Mornington? Yeah, maybe. And like, I guess I'm sure the people down here would like that and find them and find the right ones and not have to like, like any profession you gotta, you gotta, there's going to be good and bad. But I think

like my, like, I'm sure you guys both know this, but for those guys listening, we're trying to, at Virtus, our goal is to kind of create a holistic health wellbeing center that has, Kelly just spilt her gin all over her, so, she just found it really funny. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to see a goal. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry for trying to change the world. Just trying to make the world a better place guys, sorry, but, but trying to find, trying to find like one or trying to create one place where your, you know, I, the way I simplify things and I simplify a very complex system into three parts, it's health, function, performance.

If we can find, you know, all the different practitioners that fit into each one and have them all into one like multidisciplinary practice where everyone communicates with each other, with each other, everyone talks, talks about their patients and talks with their patients in a position where, you know, like for example, at the moment I'm able to go upstairs and sit in on one of my client's sessions with my physio, Greg, and able to actually kind of problem solve with him about what's going on and talk about what's working. Like perfect world I'd be able to

add a GP to that and an osteo to that and, you know, we're lucky enough to have myotherapy and dietetics and Pilates and all these different things and everything, like physios hate Chiros and Chiros hate osteos and osteos hate Myos and they go, nah, that's rubbish, but everyone's got something to offer and I think when we finally allow ourselves to remove ego from the situation and of course everyone, and the reason why it's there is because everyone needs to get paid, everyone, you know, it's a resourcing time and money that's probably the big issue, but if we can move, like slowly start moving the industry to that point, I think everybody wins.

So you're asking for more collaboration? Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, that's what medicine is, like it's such a collaborative practice and that's like, I think the way we are taught is collaboration is the key to getting the best outcomes for your patient and without collaboration that isn't a genius though. Absolutely. I like that. I think for us it's hard though, so we see patients from low socioeconomic backgrounds who can't afford a G membership or can't afford to go and see my therapist or a physio, whatever. And so that's where you're, I guess, sort of stuck. So in theory, it's great to have collaborative practice where everybody can afford everything.

And I think that, you know, even maybe Cairo and, you know, Chinese medicine and naturopaths, like whilst it's not evidence-based, if it makes someone feel better and they can afford to do it and they're not wasting their money on it, then that's fine. Yeah. And yeah, and I guess the cost is relative to value. Yeah. Like if you spend a thousand bucks every year at a Chinese medicine place and it makes you feel better, then maybe it's worth it. Like other people might go, well, I'm still in the same spot I am now, but I like hanging out with that person for an hour.

Maybe it's worth it. Like for me, if it's not moving the needle, then like I'll move on and yeah, and then you're right. Like the money thing is a big part of it and that like those resources, whether it be time or money, are kind of going to impact what kind of, what kind of outcome you get. But I don't know. I just find it really interesting. Yeah. I think it's, oh, go on. Sorry. No, I was going to say, I think it's just like from what you were saying, like, um, it's hard to see

the people in that situation where, you know, like we get taught about all this stuff and like, obviously have a good relationship with you and understand the people you can't, you see, and it's just, it's hard when you, like people, those patients from low socioeconomic backgrounds, they just can't afford it. And it's so hard because like, if, if I could, like, I would like to think that there's like three or four things that I could teach everyone. The world would be a better place because people would move better. People would feel better. Like they're not difficult concepts.

I feel that if I could teach people that, you know, if your hips don't move and your upper back doesn't move, guess what's going to hurt? Like your lower back's going to hurt. If your hips don't move and your ankles don't move, guess what's going to hurt? Your knees are going to hurt. Like if everyone understood that, man, the world would be a better place. I mean, it's tricky. If you get those, we would get those patients that would come to a GP and they'd be like, and the problem would be the lower back, but to them, the problem is the lower back.

And um, when they're not educated in health and physiology and all that, they don't understand that the issue is somewhere else and they want a quick fix, they want a fix now and they want you to provide that for them. And like to say, actually I could refer you to this guy I know, they're really good where these people are. They'll be able to help you out with this. No, I want to get fixed now. Yeah. I mean, it might take a few weeks. It's going to cost you out of pocket. No. Yeah, exactly. But

some, and generally some people choose whether intentionally or unintentionally, like a lifetime or a long period of time in pain because they don't want to spend a couple of hundred bucks once, which, which, but that like, we're all adults, we can all make our own decisions. But I don't know if, if the education's there and I don't know how we get it there, I'm purely just, just kind of going perfect world scenario, but if the education's there and people want to make that decision, fine, go nuts. Like you do what you want, but I don't

know, I find it really interesting and I find it something that I feel is always changing and I guess I surround myself in environments where it's changing. So that's the frustrating thing. Yeah, it's hard. I don't really know. Um, like, yeah, I think, um, you have bang on the money there though with education is the key. Yeah. Um, but everyone wants to watch the Kardashians instead. I mean, you can suck them into your Kardashians. If you're watching the Kardashians at the moment, just, just Google like joint boys will learn approach or like maybe the ad sets would pop up on YouTube when you're watching like reality TV should be educational ads.

Stop it. Like that's an idea, right? No, it's not. It's not gonna happen. And like when you can't skip the ad when that's on like channel nine. It's gonna be about, about, about, uh, like buy a new car, a home line or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, that's really interesting. Daniel, I want to, I want to know why you wanted to become a doctor and why you, well, became a doctor. Like really give me a simple, concise, elegant answer. Okay. I mean, this, this answer comes from reflection actually. I was thinking about today, which is coincidental, tactical, good.

Very tactical. Um, I think when I first found out that medicine was an option, um, would have been about, I should say first or second year uni, I think previous to that, I've always, um, enjoyed the idea of health and, um, yeah. Healthcare professionals. Every time we talked about it, I was like, I like science. Yeah. I mean, in a broader sense. And I think like that, you know, science was with the first interest into that and it formed into human physiology. That was the interest. Yeah. Um, so then in about the second year uni, um, one of my other friends, uh, told me about the GAMSAT and like we met earlier, the process of getting into medicine.

Yeah. And it kind of occurred to me at the time that, um, doing a degree in biology was good. I was interested in it, I liked it in high school, but the really only options after finishing undergraduate would have been to go into research, which I didn't really think I wanted to spend my time in the lab doing stuff like that. You do look good in the lab coat. Great in the lab coat. Um, really brings out my, my eyes somehow, I don't know, makes me look brown or pasty. I don't know. Anyway. Um, or,

um, doing forever education and becoming a teacher or something, which I think teachers are great, but I didn't think that's what I wanted to do. Yeah. Um, so give it a go. Um, I thought I liked helping people. So you fell into being a doctor. I kind of fell into medicine. Yeah. No, I'm not. No, that's obnoxious. I don't mean that, I think that's how it happened. Like I didn't really plan on doing it, but I thought, I think when I think baton, I've always thought it was something that I would have liked to have done.

And then like more recently, um, and I think in the last few years, I mean, going to study medicine when you're like 21, studying medicine when you're 21 to finishing when you're 25, what's a good portion of like your intellectual development, I think like, you know, um, and I think I've found a lot of myself and like sort of what I like and how I perceive myself, I guess. I don't know. Um, and I kind of like looking back and I think I do enjoy the idea of helping people and making a difference to people's lives on an individual basis.

Um, from a, to carry on from that question, if you could explain your personal philosophy on life, what would it be? I think you gotta find something you're passionate about. Oh good. Like this relates back to the first question you asked about waking up in the morning. Yeah. And I think if you can find something you're passionate about and it gets you up in the morning, it pushes you through the day and it pushes you through those terrible times where you're actually not enjoying what you're doing because everyone goes through those times. Like, yeah, we're saying before, like, you know, studying something can be really shit sometimes.

Like crap. That's a bit horrible. But you're working towards something that's bigger than that. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're like, you might sit back or you'll learn something really interesting and like just pricks your mind and you're like, this is so cool. I'm so glad. And you remember what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's it. So when you find your passion, I think that's what, yeah, definitely. Would you say your purpose as a doctor is to help people and just to make the world a better place through the each person you see one at a time?

Yeah, I guess so. Like, I mean, I get the healthcare, the cornerstone of healthcare is helping people. Yeah. I know we were talking about earlier like the idea of treating versus preventing. Unfortunately, like when you're quite junior, everyone goes to the hospital. So everything you see is treating, essentially, but the idea of preventing is quite exciting as well. I don't think currently I want to go down the GP pathway. It's really upsetting to me because I guess I'm going to have to hire Kelly instead. Yeah. But I think there's other ways like you can help out with prevention and like public health is something that stands out as an interest.

I think you don't have to help like when you're talking about prevention, you don't have to help a million people at once. I think if you help people around you in those little circles, then effectively you are making the world a better place. I think I really like the idea of the opportunity to empower people to make a change in their own lives. Great word. Yeah. That's a very exciting prospect of being in health care, the ability or the opportunity to empower people to make a difference in their lives. And whether that be someone like,

you know, in the next year or so who's in hospital and for whatever reason could be the first presentation, but like being able to spend time with them to teach them about what's happened to them and how they can prevent that in the future or prevent whatever happens, getting worse or whatever. And that's been very exciting opportunity. Yeah. I like that. And a privilege really. I like that a lot. Yeah. But that's the cool thing about it. Like you're humble enough to go, you know what, it's a privilege that I'm able to help people. I'm

privileged that I'm able to make someone's world better by treating them or teaching them something or empowering because a lot of people would be like, what do I get out of this? Yeah. I mean like, I don't know, like I don't think we've ever really, we've had these discussions amongst us. Um, like Kelly and I and our housemates previous and, you know, other peers from uni about that. And like, I think the good thing, like the good thing is it comes back to that same sort of sentiment, like people enjoy the idea of being able to help and be able to empower people to make a difference in their lives.

And like, yes, there is definitely, um, personal benefits from it. But the fact that that's not your main driver, um, although it's enticing, that's great. And it's fantastic that we get the opportunity to have that. It's not the reason why, if that was the reason why you did it, you wouldn't get anything out of it personally. I was having this argument, argument with one of my clients who's a nurse and she hates the "I do it because I want to help people" thing. And we unpacked it and we talked about it for like 15 minutes

and we got to the end and I'm like, okay, so basically what you're saying is you want to do it, you do it because you want to help people. She's like, yeah, but it makes me feel good. I'm like, but what's wrong with that? Like you're able to make yourself feel good and help people at the same time. Man, that's a dream. Like that's exactly what, what I think as humans, human peoples that we're all chasing. Like we're all chasing that ability to, yeah. What do you think? Do we ever do anything though for someone else that doesn't know how to do it?

Are you asking, is there such thing as true altruism? I think the answer is no. A hundred percent no. I am so behind the answer being no. Absolutely. Yeah. But that's okay. As long as you acknowledge that, as long as you don't go into that being naive and thinking I'm just going to do so much. Yeah. Like I used the example with Geordie the other day, like we were lucky enough, I'm lucky enough to be in a position where we can run fundraisers once a year and raise money for one of the families that come to the gym.

Like that makes me feel really warm and fuzzy inside. Like I love that I'm able to do that. So just because I feel good about it, doesn't mean it makes it any less meaningful or any less beneficial. No, of course not. So, but it's, I don't know. I find a couple of people I talk to struggle with that, but it makes me feel good. I guess, portion of it. Why did you want to be a doctor, Kelly? Oh gosh. Like really concisely. So I like people. I like talking to people. I like helping people. I, like I said before, so my first degree was in exercise science and I was the noblest of professions.

And I worked for a couple of years in a physio clinic as a very unqualified exercise physiologist. And I always felt like I wanted to do more for the patients or the clients that I was seeing. So I wanted to be more involved in their diagnosis of their chronic disease, the medical management of their chronic disease, and really work in a very holistic space. I think as I've gone through the last four years, that has changed a bit. And I, I've kind of forgotten that person. So it's nice to reflect on that, that reasoning during like your degree.

Yeah. Sure. But I don't know. I like the hospital now. I still really like people and I still like helping, helping people. Yeah. I say that in inverted commas. I like the way that it makes me feel. Those listening at home, Kelly just did the little finger thingy. Yeah, but I guess my reasoning for studying medicine has changed. I like the science behind it as much as I hate to admit that. Dan's genuinely jumping up and down his chair. I don't know, I just like being involved in people's lives. I think that's like you're trying to unpack an answer that you've already given, like you know the answer.

Yeah. Which is cool because everyone just wants to help people. I heard a bunch of questions for you guys. They can be as long winded or short as you'd like. Most people would have zoned out like an hour and a half ago. I'm done if you're still listening. By the way, if anybody wants to read more about true altruism, there's a good book by Peter Singer called Doing the Most Good That You Can Do. Yeah, I think he likes the title of the book by about five words, but it's the most good you can do or something.

The most good you can do. Yeah. Peter Singer's most recent book. It's on your bookshelf. Can I borrow it? You can grab it. I can have it. I can give it to you right now. Presents. I love presents. We can't have it. You can borrow it. Oh, you said I could have it. And jumping on that, altruism or like Richard Dawkins' book, The Selfish Gene, is for those more science inclined, more than philosophy, which is a good book. Anyway, good. All right. I've got a couple of questions for you, and you've both got to answer them, and I'll flip who goes first.

So for the first one, Daniel, you can go first. Have you had a defining moment? No. Kelly? No. Oh, cool. It might come this year. It might come tomorrow. Who knows? Yeah. It might come tonight. Maybe. There will be plenty of defining moments. Have you had a defining moment? I have. I've had three. Okay. Can you briefly tell us? Do you choose a defining moment? Unless someone else like... Obviously, you can't plan a defining moment. But do I... Defining moments. Defining moment for you. And this really depends on the person, what they feel as though is a defining moment.

But I feel as though my defining moments have been when I've sat there, had a really complex thought about where I was in that particular time and what it was actually doing to me. Or I look back now and remember that moment as that's where my mindset changed or things changed, right? My first one was when I was sitting in an ethics lecture in my exercise physiology masters on a Monday night at about 8.40 PM. And I was like, "What the fuck am I doing with my life?" Somewhat miserable, right? Not miserable in the fact

that I didn't have everything that I wanted, but miserable in the fact that I was like, "This is not taking me where I want to be." Yeah. That's a defining moment. Yeah. Sure. It just changed me and I had a bunch of stuff, I think Par passed away a couple of days later and we had a bunch of stuff going on, but I made the decision then and there in that lecture that I was done with exercise physiology, which turned out to be one of the best decisions I've made. I had another defining moment where my business partner left last year and maybe a week after.

So I went through a couple of stages of grief, I guess. The first couple of days afterwards, I was super positive. And then dad, he meant the best, but he was obviously very risk averse and didn't want me to have to struggle. Like I was going to have to, and was very negative about it. And that put me in a really shitty spot for a week. And I was just like, "No, all the things that I wanted, I'm going to lose and everything." And I had a defining moment, I'm like, "Well, this is the best thing that could happen to me because one, I'll fail and have to do something else.

Or two, I'll work so hard that I'll learn how hard I can actually work and I'll make it work." And like now looking back 12 months on, I think I was in the office at work sitting there by myself, kind of sitting there going, "Oh fuck, how am I going to make this work?" And I remember that moment and that's been the catalyst for me putting in all the work I've put in for the last 12 months. I'm a completely different person, gym's a completely different gym, like our community is a completely different community in terms of what our values are.

And I feel as though it's the first, the last six to eight months, the first time I feel as though I know exactly where I want to be all the time. Which is not that I didn't feel as though I knew it, but it's a different knowing now. And the third one was when I first started my podcast. There was a public holiday and I was sitting in the gym by myself going, "Oh, I want to really, like I wanted to start one for ages." And it's something I thought about since starting listening to Joe Rogan like two years ago and consuming a lot of his podcasts.

And I was kind of like, "You know what? If I don't do it now, I'll never do it." I literally ran to my phone, plugged in my headphones, press record, recorded a 13 minute babble about me talking about rubbish, uploaded it, and said, "Yeah, well that's it. Nothing's changed." But now I get to talk about rubbish with other people and that makes me happy. So, shout out. And that moment and that realization that everything's on me and if I want something, I do it. I can do it. And if I don't want something, I can not do it.

And if there's something I want to change, I can change it. That ability to have that ownership on every part of my life. It's a small thing, pressing record and talking about it and uploading it. But yeah, they've been my three defining moments. So, sorry to steal the question even though I asked you to. No, that's fine. Does that help, does that tell you that maybe you have had a defining moment or not? Because you don't have to. Not personally, but I feel like maybe what you were saying before when, perhaps when you were working as a very unqualified EP, it's something similar.

Similar is where you're just like, "No, this isn't for me. I want to do something else. I think I want to do medicine." Yeah. I think maybe, is it harder? I feel like there was no like, "Yes, we've finished and we've graduated." But there's no like, Lachlan just spoke about it with a bit of success like he's going to look back now and at the last eight months, the gym's where he wants it to be. Yeah, I don't know. I guess maybe that moment. You don't have to have an answer. I don't know. I think there's an answer itself if you can't think of one in a defining moment.

It seems insignificant now. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I feel for myself, things just kind of happen. Necessarily. I haven't ever sat down and be like, "I want to be a doctor." I can't help but feel like moderately responsible for your success though. Solely responsible. Our graduation was another one of your defining moments. But that was, it was cool, on your graduation, it was cool to be able to sit there and kind of look back at like, you know, I still remember the time that we sat there and studied for biology in like year 12. Yeah.

Well, because of that. Yeah. What were we thinking? Yeah, exactly. I just wanted to hang out, to be honest. We didn't do much study. But it was cool to be able to see your achievement over the last, like, you know, how long you've been spending at uni? Seven years? Yeah. Yeah, like Dan spent seven years at uni, like the last seven years of our friendship and to be able to see it like culminating in something that was actually a thing. Yeah. Like, oh, that's what he was doing. Oh, it makes sense now. That's what he went to.

I was wondering where he was, I hadn't seen him at Rebel for a while. But yeah, but it was cool to be able to celebrate that win. So I don't know, I feel as though that could be a defining moment, but I guess we'll see how we go. I don't know. To me it feels like a stepwise progression, like, there's no like one point where something's just turned on its head or like, yeah, I've changed something dramatically, like we've been explained. I mean, I was pretty proud at grad. Yeah, of course. It's hard. You cried, mate.

I did cry. You totally cried. Yeah, I cried. Which is nothing more than crying. You cried multiple times that day. I did. Yeah. Crying doesn't mean you win. One with more alcohol and juice, but you know. Dan almost got arrested, but that's for another time. When we were taking the Hippocratic oath. Which you two are about to like walk through with us. Oh, yeah, great. No, we're not. Okay, we're not. If you, if you want to know what the Hippocratic oath is, Google it. Yeah. Um, I cried and, um, it, I don't know, at that point it felt like a real achievement.

So it's hard because when you're in a group with, you know, 130 other medical students, finishing medicine doesn't really seem like an achievement, you know, it's like, oh, all my friends did it. Which is actually quite interesting because I think medicine is so like, um, we're kind of pretty close up and then we're being mournable too, like even more so, it's quite far from everyone else. So we're in a really tight knit, very, um, close group that like everyone was in the same situation. Everyone was going through the same thing. It's not, it's only like

when we came back to like even the other night at the gym when like four or five people come up and they're like, congratulations, congratulations. Because you're out of that environment where everyone else is on the same side. I mean, we were congratulating each other on Thursday, but it kind of felt like it was just, you know, part of the, part of the game, like what you did. But when other people outside of that who don't necessarily know what you've been through or experienced still, um, well, aren't like, you know, happy to congratulate you because they believe it's an achievement.

That's kind of nice. And that's when you really, have you two, have you had two, have you two had times reflecting and kind of give yourselves pats on the back or each other? I think, I think we've been pretty good constantly throughout like medical school. Yeah. We've had our challenge, like we've had our challenges throughout medical school. It did get shit at times. Um, so I think that we've both been very supportive of each other. Yeah. But it's still that same thing, you know, like we're both doing it. It's no different from any of our other friends getting through.

Um, so it hasn't been huge of an achievement. Yeah. Whereas really it's like, all right, next question, what is your greatest achievement? Um, I want to say finishing medicine, but, um, great segue Wallace. I think so I'm going to get personal for a second. I think that my biggest achievement was earlier this year, so I actually failed my emergency medicine rotation. Um, and Dan and I were all set to go off to Europe for 10 weeks and work over, sorry, six weeks and work over in Scotland. And as a result of me failing that rotation, I had to repeat it.

I think that it was a huge achievement for me to cop that on the chin and come back. Yeah. When I found out I was completely devastated. I was on the floor, like banging my hands and feet like I was wailing, it was bad, and then we still went overseas and I came back after 10 days and Dan continued on to Scotland and I repeated, I repeated my, um, rotation and it was pretty shit, like to know that, to know what could have been and that I could be traveling the world and you know, seeing

medicine from a different perspective and that type of thing, um, I think that initially I thought it was going to be horrible, but I got through the first day and I turned up again the second day and eventually six weeks was gone. Yeah. And I had a really good time in the end. And I think that the ability to turn something terrible or what I perceived as terrible in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't like that, you know, lost family member. There's your defining moment, ladies and gentlemen, maybe, but, and I think like that's

so important to be able to like work yourself out and I think it's okay to be devastated and okay to be, and I think, I can't remember if you told me or Dan told me, but man, my heart sank. I was just like, no, that's horrible. But at the same time, like I love the quote, uh, life's 90% of, 10% of what happens to you and 90% of how you deal with it. Like you could have gone that I'm done, I'm shitty and just like had a horrible time at your rotation and probably maybe failed again, but you allowed yourself to go, you know what, if I rock up today, like I should, if I show up, that's enough.

And then tomorrow if I show up, that's enough. And then by week two, you're back enjoying it. Yes. That's pretty cool. Should be proud of yourself. That's awesome. I had the best time. I got some great opportunities going back and yeah, definitely made the best of a shitty situation. That's what life is. Well, exactly right. Yeah. No, that's totally true. What question to ask? Achievement. What's yours? Hit me. Um, I don't know. Haven't had it yet. Probably haven't reached it yet. No, I mean, I think we've nailed some pretty good friends. To find nails. I don't know.

Yeah. I assume they're in the room. It could be anywhere. Yeah. True. I always find these questions like very, very difficult. Do you think the more you think about it, the better you get at answering them? Because I find, I hear having done 36 of these now, I find I get, I'm able to think more about each of the answers that I would give. I think like automatically when someone asked me a question like that, I just shut off. Yeah. Old mates struggle too. Other Dan. Yeah. I don't know. Like I, I feel like I am very much for progression.

Like I like to advance myself, I guess, like I don't mind my greatest. I was in my internship position. Dan and I just looked at each other for those of those, those of you playing at home. And you know, you have to say, you have to introduce yourself and say, one of the questions is what are you passionate about? And it was a great interview. And one of the guys goes, I'm very passionate about improving myself. It's just such a, yeah, such a wanky answer. I think what I just said, they remind you of that, but it's not what I meant.

I meant like, that's what do you mean? That's basically what he meant. I just feel like you're a pompous ass, mate. No, I feel like once I've done something, I'm onto the next thing. So I don't think of it as an achievement, like I feel like, do you feel as though like that constant, it's almost as if you're never satisfied or you never stop and enjoy what you've done. Yeah, probably more the first one and never satisfied because like now at this point here is where you can definitely sit back and enjoy finishing medicine, being doctors, again, because you don't really feel like you're a doctor right now when you're just doing nothing.

Yeah. But sort of still a bit anxious because you want to start doing something. You want it to come around so you can start doing it. So I'm waiting for that next step. I just feel like when I achieved something like, you know, finishing high school, finishing undergrad, finishing post-grad, it's just like the steps and there's a bigger picture out there. So I don't see them as my greatest achievement, just part of achieving something. I like that. What advice would you give 15 year old you? And that's a question for both of you. So proceed. 15 year old me, I was doing a rascal.

I feel like an idiot, don't be an idiot. I kind of wish I worked a little bit harder in school, which sounds a bit silly looking, I don't know, just yeah, because I feel like I never really tried that hard and I feel a bit stupid for not doing that and there's probably a few life things I missed out on like learning when I was 15, which probably would have been handy to know. Like what? Math in particular probably. Probably could have been a better hand at math if I tried a little harder in year 10 maths or whatever it was at that age, which I almost failed.

They didn't want me to go ahead and do year 11 math. Right. So try harder. But don't you think that that makes you the person that you are today? Yeah, definitely. Of course. Everything does. You're defined by your past experiences. Absolutely. And your future endeavors. Yeah. Stop it. So do you think that you would have worked as hard now if you hadn't had those experiences? No. If I hadn't been a lazy, righteous little shit when I was 15, then I knew that guy. And then your dad couldn't remind you of the time that you worked in?

This weird story that he makes up that I worked for him for a couple of weeks and decided I wanted to go back to school. I'm pretty sure it was the holidays and I worked there for a couple of days and I'm like, "No, I probably don't want to do full time work. I'm going to actually do school work and study a bit harder towards the end of year 12." I'm probably the opposite. I'm kind of a serious person and I think that that's a hard bit from quite a young age. So I think, yeah, relax a bit.

Don't take everything so seriously. Chill out, mate. Good. Have we turned around? You two are flipped. Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's why we're so perfect. And that is why you're perfect together. Good. This is an interesting question in light of what you guys have just achieved and I use the word achievement intentionally. It is an achievement. Good. Well done. Give yourself a pat on the back. Well done. Thanks, mate. I can't. It was tough. It was tough. Touch and go there for a minute. If money wasn't an issue and you couldn't fail, what would you do with your life?

I think Kelly's first. Kelly's first. Kelly's first. If money wasn't an issue and you couldn't fail. Yeah. I wouldn't do anything different. I love that answer. I don't see money as an issue. Good. No. I guess eventually we're going to be fortunate enough to be earning some good money. Yeah. So Dan and I had a conversation about this yesterday and I think that people need to realize the amount of costs that doctors have and the reason that specialists charge so much money because the specialist is the only source of income for that whole office and they've got a receptionist to pay and all of those things.

Don't worry. I understand overheads. I understand overheads. Yeah. Plus the effort they've put in to get to that position and their personal investment to be where they are now. Yeah. And things like insurance costs and that type of thing too but I have never seen money as an issue. Good. You know, it shouldn't define your life, although it does make life easier, but it shouldn't define who you are or where you're going. I think we're pretty, like I'm kind of the same. I think we're all pretty fortunate to be able to say that, like a lot of people can't, which is obvious, but it's nice to be able to remember that every now and again.

I like to think that Dan and I are part of a changing culture of medicine where you don't have to come from a privileged background. So like my parents still rent their house, they're not particularly well-off, I've never been at a private school or anything like that. A lot of our friends that we study with have, and their parents help them out paying their way through university. Dan and I both have jobs and that type of thing. Yeah, I'm extremely proud of where we've come from to be where we are, not to get away from

anyone else who has come from a privileged background in any which way or form, but I think it just makes you appreciate your achievement, your personal achievement when you factor in that we had to hold down casual jobs and work in 10 years in retail. And almost about to finish my last retail Christmas ever. So bloody exciting. You said that like four times, mate. Have I? No, I said that a couple of times before I did it, mostly to the discount, but you're right, but it's nice to see you patting yourself on the back, finally. Yeah.

Yeah, good for you. If you guys could be remembered in one sentence, what would it be? I think you summed up quite well my 21st birthday, didn't you? There were graphs. There were lots of graphs. The greatest speech in the history of the world. Yes, it was a PowerPoint presentation and there were graphs. How did I sum it up? Do you remember? I don't know. Annoying, but not too annoying, maybe. Just the right amount of annoying. I want your answer. No, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I just made that up then. Annoying, but not too annoying.

Count? Passive, but not too passive. Sing on the fence, but having an opinion. But not a strong one. But not a very strong one. An enjoyable guy to be around. It's a handball. Oh, that's a handball. Sorry. You won't remember. You weren't very verbal with that hand gesture. Oh God, that's so hard. It's a huggable, lovable kind of girl. Girl. Alright, it's unisex now. 2017, mate. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it'll be 2018 when this podcast is out. I don't know. Takes things a bit seriously, but I don't know. Can have a laugh. Can have a laugh. Oh my God.

That's such a terrible sentence. Can drink lots of gin, regardless. Good. I don't know. That's a terrible answer. I'm sorry. That's alright. We'll work on it. Alright. What is success to you, Kelly? Having purpose, being happy, being surrounded by family and friends. Awesome. Embracing failure and learning from it. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Good. Well done. You can see that the whole time. I'm glad you asked that question. I want succinct answers to this one because this is a topic that we can talk about for another podcast. If you could go back to high school, year 10, what are three subjects you wish they taught you or three things you wish they taught you at school?

I wish I did economics. Some basic form of economics that has a little ground in there. Broadly class it under life skills. Yeah. How to change a tire, how to change a life globe, how to service a car. Hmm. And then one more. Hmmm. Use your words, mate. Yeah. No, that'll do for me. Cool. Cal? Politics? Yeah. We had commerce. Although, I wonder whether... Yeah, I wonder... It's a bit different though. We could have covered it in commerce. Yeah. I wonder whether year 10 me would take it on board though. Yeah. Yeah. I liked what you said before, Dan, about 21 to 25 being a big part of your intellectual development.

Like... A massive part. I think like politics and like religion and global issues are things that we want to talk about now. Yeah. But we didn't want to talk about then. I'm so impressed when like younger people talk about topics like that. Yeah. Or even know like... I met this girl at Rebel in Warrnambool. She was one of the new girls that started there. And she was in year 12. She just finished year 12. Yeah. And I can't remember the subject that they did it in high school, but it was about writing a thesis, and her thesis was on euthanasia and what say 18 to 21 year olds understand and think about it.

That's a gnarly topic for an 18 to 21 year old to talk about. Well, yeah, that's right. Exactly. Like an 18 year old girl to know what you... I don't think I knew what euthanasia meant when I was that age. It's the young people in the Asian region. Is that what it was? Wait, that's what we're talking about now. That makes sense. No, I was just like so happy that like... Apologize for joking about such a serious topic today. Yeah. So happy and excited that someone that age was like thinking about a topic like that. That's cool.

I think my other one would be like research skills and evidence searching. That's what that topic was to discern between right and wrong information. Yeah. Fake news. Pretty cool now. Yeah. Mate, everything's fake news these days. It's 2018, I guess. Yeah. Or is it? Ooh. Dun, dun, dun. Who are your heroes? Who do you look up to and why? One obvious one. Keep it simple. Wallace. Stop. Yeah. Al Wallace. Three votes. First three votes for a while. Appreciate it. But I really do look up to you because having these types of conversations, you know, you

have them with a whole bunch of different people and to like hear about your experiences and see how you've grown as a person both, you know, professionally and personally, I think that it's amazing. You're the best. You used to be real shit. Still internet. Ah, that time that we got kicked off air. Brewery tour. What time, Billy? I did get kicked out of a brewery tour, but you know what? Can't win them all. We're in a brewery. I drank too much. If you're going to drink, like it's like getting sick in hospital, right? Exactly. Yeah. Take him out.

He's sick. He's bloody sick again. So ridiculous. This is the third time now. I appreciate that. Stop it. No. Now give me a real hero. My mom. Good. I don't know. To see some of the adversity that she's been able to do with over her life and you know, before I was born and that type of thing. I think that it's something that I've definitely reflected on and grown from going forward. When did you allow yourself to or allow yourself to reflect on that and actually, you know what? Mom's awesome. Um, probably it would have been my early twenties.

So I'm 27 now. Um, late twenties now. Yeah, gosh. I think, I don't know. I moved out of home when I was 19. Um, so, and I lived on campus for a couple of years, so probably, yeah, around that time that I moved out properly, like into a house of my own and that type of thing. I think it's something that, it tends to be a common topic on this, a common theme on the podcast. Like people get to like early twenties and start to go, "Holy shit, my parents were right." Or, you know, if they weren't right, like, geez, I appreciate all the stuff they did for me.

All the sacrifices and stuff. And it's, it doesn't, yeah, they never really asked for thanks, but it's always nice to be able to give them. Yeah. That's, that's a cool reflection. Daniel? Yeah. I'm, I'm really like inspired to have any heroes. I like aspects of people, um, I don't know, like qualities of people more than like people themselves. What are the qualities that you look up to? Hmm. I feel like people, people that have made massive changes in their lives, whether that be like go from one career to another, or I don't know, someone who was overweight and lost a lot of weight.

Yeah. Um, yeah. Things like that. I don't know. Like, um. Just people that have overcome adversity. Yeah. I guess really. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't know. When I was younger, I had, I had heroes, but I think they were more like bits of official. Robert Harvey. My man. Yeah. I like, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I don't know about like sports stars as, as, as like heroes. Like they're good or something. It depends who you aspire to be though, I guess. Yeah. I mean, no, I appreciate the aspect that they've worked extremely hard to be in that position.

Um, but you think of people like Nick Rayrock or whatever, for instance, like works, like worked really, really hard and was really, really, um, diligent with his exercise and diet and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I can really appreciate that. I mean, I don't aspire to it. Um, but I think it's, I think if you ask people like who they look up to or who their heroes are when they're five, 15 or 25 and 35, they're going to get four different people, which is cool because it shows us like what our focus is on mindsets, like in different areas of our life.

Probably Batman, 10, still Batman, 15, Superman. If you guys could invite, I'm going to go four people to each, four people to dinner, who would they be and why they can be dead or alive? Um, Richard Dawkins is a good chat. Oh yeah. Uh, he's coming soon. Yeah. I'll go with Mitch. Do you have another one? Who's that? Sam Harris? For me? Yes. We'll get Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris in the same room. It's just like, Oh, there is a podcast of Sam Harris and Rich Dawkins talking. It's really good. I thought we listened to that one already.

We did. Yeah. Yeah. Listen again. I'm just telling the people. Look for everyone else towards the microphone and let everyone know. Um, you know what would be actually quite interesting? A bit of a nerdy look, but go to the glasses, Andrew Denton, he would, he's met some pretty impressive people and I would say he has some pretty interesting stories. Yeah. That's one out of the box. That's a great answer. He's got some amazing stories about, um, euthanasia and end of life. Very good podcast. He has actually. I can't remember what it's called, but search Andrew Denton in your podcast app.

Should we, should we have fun Cal, who is your couple? Oh gosh. No. So Sam Harris is one of them. Yep. Um, I don't know who one other person would be. Gosh. It's too much pressure. Do you know what? Well, he didn't know. He's already one of my heroes. Sam Harris is there. I'll probably be there. Yeah. That's cool. You'll be invited. I like it. Tony Abbott. Tony Abbott. Oh, actually, um, Peter Smith. Oh yeah. Yeah. Very good. That's fun. Yeah. It's fun. All right. Last couple. I want a bunch of favorites from you guys. Uh, first thing that comes into your head, this has got to be quick.

All right. Favorite fun fact. Come on. You've got a good one. I know exactly what you're going to say. Do you? I haven't got. Yes, you do. Come on. No, you've put in way too much pressure on me right now. Cal, you're up. Favorite fun fact. Oh my God. I don't know one. There's so much pressure. I know. You can't do that. It's my podcast. I don't know what. There's going to be radio silence next minute and a half while you guys figure out your favorite fun facts. But hey, carry on. If you're listening to my, if you're still listening, Google fun facts and just like yell at Dan and Kelly for what they should be saying.

Get them together. You've got a duck one. Oh yeah. Thank you. Oh God. You're welcome. So the largest penis, the body size ratio of any animal in the world is the duck. If you don't believe me, Google it right now and look up a picture of. Go down to the park and check. It's actually really interesting. And this is like, this is like evolution saying yes to women and empowering women. The reason why the male's hands is so long is because the female is reproductively tracked with reproductive tract is so convoluted and long to event,

um, impregnation, being impregnated by a male that the female duck does not want to, so they kind of are getting raped and things like that, but they can still say no to having a baby from that person, which is an upside to that person. And that's Daniel's fun fact, Kel, what do you got? Kel doesn't have a fun fact. I'll give you a fun fact. Why can't t-rex's clap? Cause they're extinct. That's more of a joke than a fun fact, but carry on. Dan's got a great joke by the way. Favorite joke? Kel, you need one.

Yeah. Favorite joke? Is that the next one? Yeah. Oh, this is one that, uh, Connor told me actually, one day, shout out, um, he'd better listen to this. I hope he does. So it was a really, really hot day, not too, um, dissimilar to the ones we've been having recently. Let's say 36 degrees, really hot Australian summer's day Celsius for our American listeners. Uh, yes. So that'd be quite cold, wouldn't it? Whatever that is in Fahrenheit too. Are there any American listeners? Maybe, maybe one day. Do you know where your listeners come from? Yeah, it's kind of cool, but anyway, we'll show you later.

Yeah. So 36 degrees Celsius, Australian summer's day, um, and the penguin's driving his car down the road. So hot. He's just like flapping his wing and he's just like, I am so hot and his car breaks down. He's having a real trouble and renegade penguins. Such a hot day and lucky enough, um, the, the mechanic is, um, luckily just, just, just down the road. So he pushes his car along, um, gets into the mechanic and, um, the mechanic says, oh, yep. All right. I'll have a look at it. Hopefully I'll fix it up for you. Might take a few minutes though.

So if you want to, um, just hang out for a bit, that's fine. The penguin was like, I hope that the punch line is a killer. Um, the, the, the penguins like, you know, it's a hot day. That's fine. I'm just gonna get down the street and grab an ice cream. So off he drops down the street and he's sweating, sweating up the storm is so, so hot and he goes and gets his fill ice cream and he's just looking away at it. Looks like he's watching, it's time to go back to the mechanic cause the mechanic should be ready by now.

So he's looking at the ice cream, walking back up the street, gets to the mechanic and the mechanic goes, Oh, um, it looks like you've blown a seal. And he's like, no, no, no. It's just ice cream. It's not the joke that I thought you were going to say. I like that joke. That's a great joke. Kel, what's your joke? Um, what's the difference between a tire and the 365 used condoms? What's that? One's a good year. The other one's a great year. That's outstanding. Well done. Very, very, very good. All right. Now a couple of quick ones.

All right. I want first thing that comes to your head. Favourite recording artist? The Beatles. Good. Mmm, Running Back. Oh good. Favourite movie? The Parent Trap. Favourite movie? Uh, first thing that comes to your head, go. Shooting this list? Have you ever seen that movie? No. No I haven't. You should. You should. I've seen it. Like my masterpiece. Favourite book? Oh, I'm reading, um, The Beach then I'm quite, I haven't finished it. The Beach as in? The one in Thailand. It's Leo. Yeah. Leo's not in the book but he's in the movie. Ah, shit. Good. Kel, favourite book?

Um, I recently finished The Handmaid's Tale. I think it might be my new favourite. Amazing. Favourite alcoholic beverage? Gin. Gin. Good. The Appreciation Society. And last one, favourite quote? You are what you eat. I'm pretty, I like that. This is just descended into bloody chaos. Oh mate. Um, at graduation, the other day, our valedictorian had the most perfect quote and she said our education bemusingly provides us with, uh, protection against the world's injustices but also the weapon to change them. Ooh, and on that note, right in the feels.