S3E22 · Troy McDonagh: Managing Director, Betty’s Burgers

Hello and welcome back to the Virtus Performance Podcast. It feels good to be back in the hosting chair. My guest thinks this is all a little bit weird and can't believe that people actually listen to this but I've reassured him that we do have a few listeners. But no, it's not the listeners, it's how long they listen. It's crazy. As I said, I've got to say I don't listen to it either but that's for the sheer fact that I sit here in the hosting chair and have already listened to it once and don't really need to listen to it again.

But first of all, I've actually got a bone to pick with my guest. I did this to him the other day in person but I'm doing it again on camera for the sheer fact of entertainment. I've been coaching you and your son on the Wednesday night for a couple of months now. I've stopped doing Wednesday nights because footy training's back. Mitch takes over for two weeks and you're giving him free betties. I know, I know. I've been reflecting on it but, you know, I think there's a couple of things in it, Ty. You actually ditched

us on the Wednesday night so there was a little bit of resentment going on with that and then Mitch had a few hard times over the last month or two. I wasn't sure whether he was eating and so I thought maybe you should spot him a bit of food on the Wednesday. I do owe you one, all right? Let's say that. I won't lie. Let's just say I won't be forgetting about it. I won't be forgetting about it, Troy. That's twice you brought it up so clearly I'm going to have to owe it up to you.

I'll drop it now. Hey, what gets you out of bed in the morning? Look, four kids to start so they're all up and about early and busy and different stages of life and I have historically liked to train in the morning. I'm starting to test out the evening training which I'm quite enjoying but, you know, I've always felt if I could get up early, get some training in, help at home and get the kids going, that kind of sets me up in the right mindset for the day. There's no better way to start the day than by doing something challenging and then you're like anything that comes after that.

It gets bloody hard as you get older and I know that's not an excuse but it's just lots happening in your world and everyone's busy so you really have to commit to it and so, yeah, I think, you know, enjoying what you do is important and that means you wake up and you kind of go, right, I'm ready for the day. I know what I've got to do. I'm pretty clear in, you know, the plan for the day and so off you go. So I always have a bit of a positive frame of mind. Yeah, that's something I have learned over the time with you.

Hey, you did say four kids which actually I didn't know there was four of them so I've already learned something. How old's the youngest, how old's the oldest and what do they all do? Lyla's the oldest. She's 18, just finished VCE so she's starting to spread her wings and, you know, do her thing. Noah's 16, going into year 12, Annemiek 14 and Jonah 7 so cracking, cracking four. Good diversity of ages. Yeah, they're lovely kids. So morning workouts ticked off. What does your day look like after that? What do you do with yourself? Yeah, it's, mate, it's quite diverse so I, like I said, have I sort of grown up in business and done different things.

I like the diversity in the day so, you know, often, you know, a variety of businesses that are going on, you know, making sure that I've got the leaders, you know, covered and make sure they know what they're doing and, you know, my priorities for the day are kind of organised so, you know, there's the standard meeting stuff that goes on but I think they've got to be purposeful and meaningful and, you know, they've got to have, you know, clear outcomes as the day rolls along but yeah, it's just, you know, every day is a different day.

So you've got your fingers in many, many pies. Do you want to give us a little bit of an insight into the different businesses that you're involved in? Yeah, so I've always been in sort of hospitality, retail, leisure, entertainment, you know, different businesses, sometimes my own businesses, sometimes, you know, in corporate roles. So I've kind of got a mixed bag at the moment so I'm part of a business called Betty's Burgers and sort of managing director for that business and a shareholder in that business so, you know, that takes up a lot of time and

then along the journey over the last 10 years, you know, I've picked up and been involved in some other businesses so one of those is partnering with the beautiful Sam Keck and the Badger Keck at Common Folk who I know you love. Yeah, we very much love. Tommy Tilak and Casey and the entire team down there so, you know, spend a bit of time with Sammy and the board there and making sure the business is moving the right direction and then, you know, got involved in a business about five years ago doing outdoor basketball courts and that's sort of grown and scaled pretty quickly so I spend a little bit of time on that now.

That's called Dream Court so anyone out there that needs a great home basketball court, hit me up. Well, I might want a tennis court one day when I have my own house, which would be a long way away but we'll get there. So that's where the diversity comes in, so the different stages of their business cycles and that combined with Al and the four kids and, you know, just family life and, you know, it's busy. Yeah, so I guess explain to the audience the importance of, I guess, tending to your own garden and looking after yourself before you can fill others' cups up.

I feel like probably a step further than that, because Al and I have been married for 20 years, I think the more important part is that in a relationship or a partnership that you're in, there's time that you have to give that as the first priority. So my kind of focus on myself drops down the list a little bit so my focus is about Al and I being really harmonious and having a really happy home for our kids, right? Because that is the foundation of everything. Everything sort of feeds off that. That is literally happy life, happy life.

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, to that extent but also just, yeah, if you don't invest in that, then as an individual, you know, you're then not happy. So, you know, I think my priority is making sure, and I often sort of say this to people that are in relationships, that you've got to set that time aside. You've got to dedicate and commit to that time and otherwise you just become running partners in life and you can start to drift very easily. So first priority is that for me. Second priority is probably, you know, the kids' happiness because, you know, they're going, and then as part of that, I will fit my routine in and amongst it.

So that's what works for me. It's not for everyone but, you know, sometimes you've got to make sacrifices and, you know, this week I've trained once, right? So for me, that's a struggle week for me because it starts to affect me physically and mentally. So I've got to re-correct that. Yeah, and I suppose it'll start to affect you and then it'll affect your family and then quite possibly the health of your businesses as well. So you're right. You've got to, you know, you've got to look after yourself and prioritize yourself and sometimes, you know, those priorities move a little bit depending on where you're at but, yeah, so that's kind of how I look at things.

Yeah, lovely. Hey, you chatted about Betty's Burgers. Were you involved in like the creation and the grassroots growth of that business? What's your involvement there? So what happened, the story was that the first restaurant opened in Noosa about eight years ago and often as these things happen, there's founders and entrepreneurs that sort of get things going. I came in at about restaurant four, so they'd had it up and going and they'd made a decision to sell that this is the one owner. It just became a lot for those first two or three. So he sold

the business to an equity group and so I came in as part of that to help that transaction happen and then part of that was to kind of make sure that everyone was getting along. You know, I feel like some of the skills I have is to bring parties together to try and create, you know, just a happy and high-performing team organization. Yeah, yeah, so I came in to help the founder kind of start to exit out of the business. So that was restaurant, probably by the time we did that, that was a restaurant eight and then took the business over and started to work with the team, started to reshape that.

So your role is really like team cohesiveness and... Yeah, it's a bit of change management really, so just making sure that, you know, without all the bullshit that goes with it. Yeah, that's right. It's just making sure that you're bringing a group of people together and they understand kind of what the purpose of the mission is and, you know, a lot of that stuff that you sort of set down and they all go, yep, I want to be a part of that or I don't want to be a part of that and we feel like we've got a group of people together, we're moving as one and we just opened restaurant 51, so things are taking a long course.

So you jumped in at say number three or four? Yeah, number three or four, so it's gone all right. That's huge. Yeah, it's nice, yeah, and a lot of fun. You know, I always believe that if you're in business and you're working every day, you just go and love what you do. If you hate it, you just can't put your hearts under it. So for anyone out there that's laboring and hate what they do, really stop and reflect because you can make a decision today. Oh, it's torture. Yeah, but often people stay in stuff, right, and they go beyond their expiry date and it becomes quite toxic.

I guess it's that fear of change, what we just discussed about before. We talk a lot about the magic that's created when you step out of your comfort zone and so my job as a leader in business is to force people out of their comfort zone because when you're out of your comfort zone is when the magic happens and so often people that I push outside their zones, they'll say to me in six months time, that's the best thing that ever happened to me or, you know, it's the best decision I made or, and so I encourage all leaders to keep forcing the people out of their comfort zones.

Yeah, and there's big parallels to like the health and fitness journey, like no physiological change to your body is going to happen inside a comfort zone. Like muscles literally need to be pushed to the point of almost failure by outside the comfort zone. Yeah, spot on. The same principles apply, right? There's a prerequisite level of stress that an organism needs to experience to actually grow. Big words make me feel smart. You're right. What are you looking for in not just a life partner but a business partner that you potentially want to work with and help grow?

Yeah, I think like in any partnership, I think just at the heart of it, you just got to like each other. Hmm. And, you know, you meet people that you just instantly connect with. And for me, it's if that instant appeal or attraction is there and there's a likeability and then you layer in things like you can trust them, they're reliable, they're honest, they're hardworking, you know, the values line up. We talked about a bit about our values, you know, sometimes your personal values align, your business values align, then you just know you've got a partnership that you want to enter into.

And that doesn't matter whether it's your husband, your wife, your partner, your girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever it is, but and in business, it's the same. You've just got to have this almost unspoken word that you can lean into each other when times are good and you celebrate the wins and when times are tough, you can lean in even harder. And the last three years, partnerships have been tested in so many ways, right, in all facets of our life. And I think we all kind of reflect on that time and go, well, what are the partnerships that really stood up?

And, you know, we're really rock solid during that time and which ones just failed around us. And we've made some adjustments in our lives. What are some of those values that you do look for yourself? Yeah. So one of the things that I always do in a business sense is make sure that there's clear values that the team create. And so I'll use Betty's as an example. So every day I wear, I don't know if this has been filmed, but every team member at Betty's gets one of these when they start with us. And it's the values bracelet.

Yeah, nice. And so our values were created by a group of people around restaurant five across all parts of our business that sort of came together and built out the vision for the business and the values of the business. That's cool. What does that say on that? It says page, passion, authenticity, integrity, genuine hospitality. And ultimately the last is E, which is creating experiences that are worth sharing. So the young team members 15 plus get one when they start. They understand what our values are. That's every single Betty's worker. Yeah. So there's 3000 of them.

And I would expect that I could walk into any restaurant today and they will be wearing it as part of the uniform and they will know what they mean. They're recognised for them. They're rewarded for them. And they're, you know, we're held accountable to the value. So those are values on my wrist line up to me, you know, I would say that they're probably symbolic of who I am as a person. So I really think your own values critical that you then line them up to whoever you're working with or for or partnering with. And if there's values alignment, then there's going to be magic.

That's it. And I could imagine like being a 15, 16 year old that might be a little bit lost in the world and they go and get a job at Betty's and they get given this bracelet that you just feel a part of a community. It's almost like a sense of belonging. Same as Virtus, right? I see it playing out here. There's a general sense of belonging. There's a sense of values alignment. People care about each other. And sometimes they don't have to be on your wrist. They don't have to be on a piece of paper.

They're just intrinsic in you. And you know, I think this business does an exceptional job here at Virtus in living out the values that it stands by. So yeah, it's good. That's sort of what I sort of look for. I've actually have noticed that on you before. I had no idea that that was there. Yeah. So I'll get up every day and this is a reminder to me of the commitment I've made to people in our business. And it helps me kind of go, am I living by these? Am I aligned to these? And people hold me accountable for it.

So, you know, no matter where you are and what you're doing and common folk is the same. We have a set of values at common folk and Sam leads those and lives those and where we hold ourselves, you know, highly accountable for delivering on them. So yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Some of the work we're recently doing at Virtus is partnering with local business and helping them invest in their team and build happy, healthy, high-performing staff and really cohesive teams. What do you feel is the benefit of investing in your team and looking after their health and wellness?

Look, I think no matter what, the vast majority of businesses are all relying on people. And so I have this people first approach in every aspect of my life. So when I look at running a big team, if you're not investing in your people and if you're not making decisions that all are focused on people and culture, then the rewards typically don't come. So if you're looking for financial outcomes from your business, if you're looking for customer orientated outcomes from your business, they're only going to happen if you've got, you know, a happy and harmonious workplace and people that genuinely care about what they're doing.

So to your point there, mate, where you're investing, you know, in here and local community and all those things are so critical to the success of an organisation. But you could, you know, you can talk about schools or councils or government or like there has to be a people first approach. And in my career, that's been my, probably one of my criticisms that I lean too heavily into culture and people. And then when, you know, you have to make decisions around those things, they become very difficult. But I've always believed that you can weather the storm.

If you've got a team environment where people care, they're united, they feel valued, they will manoeuvre with you all of those ups and downs. The great Alex Bose, and it's not the first time I've dropped his name in this podcast. The great Alex Bose said to me the other day, it's the expense that makes sense when you do invest in your staff and make sure that they're well and they're happy. And it's always at the times when you're tested, right? Because the first thing to go is that some of those little nice things to do.

And in businesses I've just seen fail, they've started to pull the pin on stuff to save a bit of coin or, you know, cash gets tight. And it's when that happens that you need to double down, right? And those businesses that double down on their people through those hard times. And again, I go back to that COVID period, you know, you reap the rewards down the track. And so, you know, I only have to look at the businesses I'm involved with. The team are all still there. They're all consistent. They're all still doing what they love.

And there hasn't been any dropout over those last couple of years. Yeah, that's it. And that's like with us, like Lachie said to me the other day, like, he's seen a direct correlation with the amount of money he puts into the business and the amount of money he spends, and the money we get back. That's right. And you can see it. And there's a limit to that. Yeah, well, you have to. I mean, you've got to be careful. But, you know, guys have done a great job maintaining status quo during a pretty tricky period. And clearly, you know, the people that connect here have doubled down, right?

And they want to be part of it. They want to be part of the future with you. And, you know, the benefits are coming. Yeah, you're right. It's a people and relationship business like here. Like, it does not matter the big dirty secret of the fitness industry. It does not matter the exercise you do, the equipment you have. Like, nothing fucking matters. It is all about how well you can build a relationship and get your client whoever to trust in you. Spot on. And ride your coattails. Nope, you're right, mate. Beautiful. Hey, the importance of systems in business for success, like some of the biggest businesses like your Mac is KFC.

They have phenomenal systems where a pretty uneducated 15-year-old can jump in and start slapping burgers together and just, you know, what are the importance of really, really good robust systems? Yeah, I think the importance is to be that you keep looking for opportunities to be better. And you're innovating all the time. And they might just be little micro improvements. So, you know, in a business, when you're dealing with a large group of people, and in my space, it's a young group of people, you have to be very clear and consistent with your systems, your tools and your processes, because safety in the workplace for us is critical, right?

Young kids can hurt themselves very easily. So if you're a one place operation, then you typically get away with stuff that you just can't when you grow. There's less need for scalability. Yeah. And if they have no appetite to do that, it's fine. But where we're at right now, like safety in the workplace is everything. So we have to have good systems, we have to have continued improvement in our operations. And, you know, there's great people in our business that kind of look for that stuff each and every day. And, you know, our young team have a voice.

So if there's something not right, they'll bloody tell us. They will tell us about it. And we've got a whole heap of channels available to them to tell us. And we'll make change. That's the beauty of being a people first business. If our team aren't happy, then we had a request yesterday come in, and you know, might sound silly, but we have these black hats and kitchens, and they're closed at the back, and they're too hot for the team. And so the request came in to go to a different style. And so we made that change in 24 hours.

In a big business like ours, those still things are all people first decisions. So that's good. Do people sometimes give you the shits with some requests? Where do you toe the line between, you know, outrageous requests and ones that are quite reasonable? Yeah, I think what I find, I think our guests give me the shits. Now I'm a very guest-focused person. But sometimes I just feel like we judge very quickly. And, you know, there's obviously, you know, guest pay for product and all the things that come with that, but they're very quick to judge. And so things that probably don't frustrate me, but get me down a little bit is when we get feedback.

And sometimes that feedback is harsh. And, you know, we want to be great at what we do, and the team are very proud of that. And so when we miss the mark, that hurts. Yeah, people know about it, which is unfortunate. Like, yeah, you know, no one's going to leave, not many people are going to leave a positive review. The only people that are going to leave a review are the ones that are going to axe the grind. Yeah, and look, you know, like anything, you know, whether it be this business or others, it's just, you want to do a great job, right.

And, you know, you're passionate about it, and you're proud of it. And so when it doesn't quite meet the mark, that's frustrating. It's frustrating. Yeah, like, you know, in amongst this job, like, I hate fucking up. I hate doing things wrong. Like, I hate when Locke has to pull me up and say, you know, do this, do that. But that feedback's great. Look, from a team point of view, they're all pretty good. You know, there can be days where, you know, if you're doing the same thing every day, and it's repetitive, and, you know, things don't necessarily go your way, then you can become a bit frustrated.

But I don't see a lot of that. I tend to be pretty optimistic and positive. And that flows through when that's infectious to other people. And they can bank on that. One thing I like is that people know who I am, they can trust that I will be the same Troy right now with you, Ty, tomorrow, the next day, the next day. So, and people can rely on it. So, you know, when you can be that, and you can expect that of someone, then you're in a good place. It was a part I looked forward to on my Wednesday nights.

We have a bit of fun, mate. You have to come back to Wednesday. We'll ditch Mitch out there. Yeah, we'll ditch Mitch when Footy goes back to Tuesday's Thursday night training. Well, they will make a trade. We'll make it a routine. Absolutely. Okay. That's a deal. Growing up, did you always know that you wanted to be, you know, big business owner, fingers in many pies? No, like all I wanted to do when I was a kid was play footy. Yep. Yeah, I was a mad, mad AFL footy head, you know, spent my, you know, years from probably six years of age to feel 14, 15, just with a football in my hand.

And so I grew up, you know, all I wanted to do was play AFL footy and I got that opportunity. So I sort of worked my way up at that stage. The under 19 competition still existed. So I went up through the ranks, the 15 development squad, 17 development squad into the 19s at Carlton and was on the cusp of, you know, a reserve senior spot. It was the last year of the under 19s and the last game of the pre-season and I tore my ligaments in my knee. Is that still the knee that sort of gives you grief today?

Yeah. So that's, you know, 50 years of age, I've just had a full knee replacement. So that was tore both ligaments or the ligaments in my knee. Reconstruction went back. They gave me another shot, but I kind of didn't have the same gusto then. And so then they dropped me back and went back to Eastern districts and played division one there. And then I tore it again and so sort of. Couldn't catch a break. Yeah. So it was just, you know, it was kind of really challenged at that time because that's all I ever wanted to do.

That's all I knew. And when that dream didn't eventuate, you know, I had to turn my attention elsewhere. What age did you say you were? You were 19 at that first injury when you were on the cusp. Yeah, under 19. So that was just sort of 18 into 19. And then. You're a boy still, aren't you? Yeah. So that's all you want to do. And that's all you think's heading your way. And you're kind of there. Were you equipped to cope with that? Not really. No, no, no. I was kind of a bit lost for

quite a few years and, you know, sort of struggling along at a uni course and, you know, working sort of part-time doing bits and pieces. And, you know, but I always probably knew that I had some capability in a leadership sense, whether it be in sport or whether it be at school. Yeah. Had you been in captaincy roles before? Yeah. Yeah. I had sort of school roles and captaincy. And it always carry over. Yeah. Yeah. So, so once I kind of got myself out of the pit of misery, which took a few years, you know, that's how the business has started.

I sort of started working in hospitality and went from there. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't mind, go into a bit more detail about that Troy in the pit of misery with one knee to 150 Betty's Burgers. Yeah. I think we always talk about, you know, getting yourself out of the pit of misery. Cause I find sometimes you are dealing with people that are struggling and, you know, I think it's a mindset shift. So for me in those early days, when, when your dream is crushed and you're not able to kind of see beyond that, then you can fall down into that pit of misery.

And, you know, it takes only you and potentially support around you to be able to climb out of that. So, and that's when you've got to lean into your friends and your family and partners and be communicating and open. And sometimes we struggle with that. So that probably took me a couple of years and, and, you know, really to find my feet again and say, okay, well, that's not going to happen for me. And I think once you get beyond that, then you start to climb out of the pit and get yourself right and focus on the future.

And you know, that's kind of what happened. And then I naturally fell into roles and those roles became bigger and that's how that career started. And everyone's kind of going through their own journey with that stuff. Yeah. What did the study look like? You said you were in and out of a uni course? Yeah. I was doing architecture. So I dropped out of, so I was doing, when I was sort of playing footy, I was at an architects firm in South Melbourne and I thought I could be an architect and enjoy design and construction. And, and then got four years into that.

And weirdly, I was designing a place, nobody probably on this call would know it, but it was Blue Train Cafe. It was at Southgate in the city. It was an iconic cafe that was built. Well, I met the owners through that design. And as part of that, I said, mate, I need to earn a bit of cash. Can you give me a job at night? So I used to finish at the architects firm about five, five 30 and then I'd catch training to the city and work there till about midnight and then do that five nights, five days there, five nights.

On the hustle. Yeah. On the hustle. Yeah. And then I fell in love with hospitality cause I found myself four years into an architect's degree thinking I'm never going to be in the top 5% architects in the country. But I felt like I had a home in hostel. Is that just cause the love wasn't there? I just think there's a skill, like there's a skill set and a uniqueness in, in that there's an elite element of that architecture space that are designing homes and commercial properties and buildings and just there's, and I just wasn't, I was sort of mediocre.

And so I thought, okay, well I can keep trucking along at this and sort of make it. And I was sitting behind a desk all day and then I'd go and work in hospital at night and just fucked and loved it. I loved being around people. So that was where the shift came and I thought, well that's where I want to be. And I guess for me like that, that just sounds like, that sounds like work and a hustle, but I guess if your heart's in it and you love it, but that's just. And I

just enjoyed, I loved what I was doing both sides, but then, you know, it's sort of lent further into hospitality and then was offered a job there full time and, and then just developed up in those spaces. So I continued doing, you know, studies during the time. I mean, there's plenty of opportunities to do your, you know, your development academically, but I always did that through the workplace and yeah, sort of just, and then you can stay in that corporate stream or you can get into your own business. And at my stage of life, I really enjoy the diversity in different businesses and helping out young leaders that are kind of making their way and doing their thing.

Just swinging back to that architecture, you said you didn't have the skill and you think it's quite a niche skill. Skill versus like a love and passion. If you don't quite have the skill for something, but you just love it and you're passionate, how far can that get you? I think you've got to have both. Yep. I think you've got to have a gift in whatever you're doing, but you've also got to have just a heart for that as well. Yeah. So you can't have just one. It'll take you so far and then you get to a point where you go, I actually don't like what I'm doing.

And I think a lot of people, I've probably had moments of that in my time, but you can get to that point. And that's why I was saying to anyone that's listening, it's like, if you are at that stage, just make a change. There's plenty of opportunity out there at the moment. And I know it sounds hard and it feels hard, but if you've got the skill and you've got the kind of experience, but you don't have the desire and the passion and the enthusiasm, they go hand in hand. It's not going to work. It's not happening.

Yeah. Spot on. Present day Troy to future Troy. Yeah. Kids all grown up, finished school. What do we anticipate? That looks like we're still a long way away. Look, present day goals and ambitions. I'd like to just do good things, right? And I think I've got this sort of appetite to kind of keep doing what I'm doing and doing diverse things over the next five to 10 years. We are getting to that. So the weird thing is that we've got those older kids, but we decided to have a younger one in Jonah who's seven. So we've got this weird space where we've got older kids growing up and then I've got a grade one.

So our life's still going to be quite unique for a long period of time, but yeah, I don't know, mate, just be good, be kind. I'm just going to keep doing random shit like I'm doing now and just living a good life. I want to sort of ease back maybe in five or so years, but right now I'm full throttle. Yeah. Yeah. Easing back to sort of spend more time with the kids. Yeah, I think just to make sure that you can enjoy the time you got. I kind of figure, without being too doom and

gloomy, most of us have 80 years roughly on the planet, some more, some less, and I'm 50 of that in, so I've got 30 less. I just want to make sure what I often talk about is I want by legacy, I want people to think of Troy in a good way. I want them to think that he's a good person. He's done great things. He's left his mark. He's been reliable. He's been consistent. He's been fun. All those things that I just want when I go, that I can look back and say I've done the

very best I can and I've lived a great life and I've had a lot of fun and I've met a lot of amazing people in days like today. Even just with you, right? You can quite easily say, nah, that's too hard. Don't have time for that, but you've just got to make time to kind of sit and just reflect. Days like today are just a reason for that. Yeah. The importance of that quiet time and reflection, which is something I've learned very recently, that you've got to give yourself that space to shut the mind off, be quiet and just reflect.

Any practices that you implement to help? I think one of them for me is training. I know it seems weird, but this is a happy place for me. When I get that hour, it is my time, so that's a selfish moment. It's not a selfish moment. It is my moment, right? That's one. I get a lot of car time, so often it'll just be think time. I suppose the advice I'm giving to anyone out there listening is that you grab the moments that best suit you. Some people meditate. Some people get up in the morning and sit outside.

It will vary, but you just take the moments where you can internalise that suit you. One of the best bits of advice I've got given by Geordie Fideau, when he's in the car, radio off, music off, and that's quiet time. It's good to just not have any stimulus in the brain, no thoughts. Everyone will be different, but as long as you're getting that time to think and reflect. Sometimes it's a bit of planning. Sometimes it's a bit of analysing. Sometimes it's nothing. I suppose it goes back earlier. A lot of enjoyment for Al and I

sometimes will just go away for a night or two because you don't get a chance when you're in a busy life to just talk and just genuinely connect. For me, Al, it's such a powerful thing. That's one thing I sometimes regret with the people close to me. That time when we catch up, sometimes there is no deep connection or talk. Sometimes it's just shit talk. It's fleeting. I hope fleeting conversations. In life, that's a lot of that. If you can commit to whoever you're with or a partner that you're with or just a friend that you want to share time with, just be present.

Connect meaningfully. Give yourself the time and space to do that. We do have to wrap up soon because as I said at the start, Troy was baffled that the podcast goes for so long. He thought it went for 10 minutes. Thanks for sticking around for nearly 40. The final question on the podcast is always if you could teach the world one thing, what would it be? If I could teach the world one thing. I spend a lot of my time helping people understand what kindness means and how they can sort of be and do kind things.

I just think sometimes we're in a world that judges very quickly and it's quite superficial and we're just not kind to each other. I think if we could have more kindness in the world and more empathy for each other, we'd get a lot further. That's what I would want. Just be kind. Just be kind to each other and just be nice to each other and just take a moment to understand each other's situation. Don't judge. Forgive if you can because there's so much conflict and we just don't get past that conflict. Now more than ever in this world, we just need kindness and we need to forgive.

I love it. That is all. Thanks so much for your time. Great, man.