S1E20 · Nick Petrovich

Hey guys, welcome to the Virtus Performance Podcast. Today I sat down with my good friend Nicholas Petrovic. Nick is a self-employed stockbroker so we delved deep into his world and what he does and I guess how it's perceived and what it actually is compared to how it's perceived. We talked about his range of health issues that he's had to deal with growing up and how that just kind of shaped him as a person and given him I guess his outlook on life that he has at the moment. We talked about travel, we talked about his

love for supercars and yeah the importance of family and how people's perception changes things and yeah it was really really enjoyable episode so hopefully you guys get a lot out of it. My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone especially normal people have a story to tell. The Virtus Podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Nicholas welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Auckland. So you just had some news after nine months of something being created growing inside an organism.

You got a text and it's being delivered next week. It is. And it's not a baby. Yep, no it's not. In a very materialistic world I've waited nine months for a special vehicle which is coming from the UK which has landed in Melbourne Airport, it might be Essendon Airport today which is really cool so I can't wait to enjoy that this summer. I haven't seen you this excited before. I was jumping like a child a few moments ago jumping over the Virtus coaches. You say special vehicle, tell the lovely humans at home what it is.

I guess it has greater value for those who are enthusiasts but it's a special vehicle to me that I guess brings a lot of happiness and stuff. It's kind of like my natural drug and escape amongst work and other things going on in life but yeah they look pretty special, very different, they stand out a lot and sometimes get a bit too much attention but it's usually I always think 50/50 good and bad. So you get the positive attention. Oh for sure. Especially one of the best parts is sharing it with people who are also interested and then you get the other 50% which is negative which you just sort of have to let it come past you.

You got to deal with it. Yeah, do with it, let it come past you and then move on. That must be tough when you purchase something like a, what's the model? It's a McLaren 720S. Yes, which is, for those who have no idea like myself, it's a supercar that's very pretty and goes fast. Yeah, very pretty and goes fast is ridiculous in every manner of the word in looks and cuts and sounds etc. Yeah. But it brings you happiness. It does, yeah. I've always been interested, as someone who's not a car guy, why spend so much money on a car?

It seems preposterous but I see how much happiness you get from it and how much enjoyment you get from it and I guess the opportunities that it brings. And that's another part of the negative attention is people just can't fathom that you would spend so much when you could do so much with that amount of money, which is true. But I sort of justify it to myself because I'm in a position where I'm not married, I don't have any children and I know that I'm probably not going to be doing this forever and while I can do it in this point of my life, I'm going to.

That's good. How old are you now? 29. 29, cool. Just 21. So, yeah. Do you enjoy it while you can or while you want to, while you don't have other things to focus on? No, yeah. It's definitely a great escapism. That's really what it's about. I was having this late-night discussion with someone who describes my interest in it as being really basic and was trying to patronise me about it and they were comparing it to taking illicit substances as being a basic alternative and which really... It's definitely along the same line. Exactly. Which really irked

me because I think if you look at flexing, and this is something you can relate to, if you're flexing your kinetic intelligence to the absolute extreme, which you would have experienced as an elite athlete... Suddenly. I appreciate that. Yeah, suddenly. So you're trying to manage all your five senses and you're trying to manage your heart rate and your cortisol and your endorphins at the same time because you're enjoying what you're doing. It's an enormously... It's a huge experience. And when you're going 300 kilometres an hour trying to do it... On a track. Of course, on a track.

Not on the street. That would just be remarkably stupid. Yeah, it's a massive experience that pays off. This is your second supercar? Yeah, my second one. After you had the other one for just under 12 months? Yeah, yeah. So I had my first McLaren in early 2016, so last year. That was a huge, huge event and it was a massive, eye-opening experience. What did it teach you about people? Oh, again, it sounds really stupid. A lot of people just can't get past the materialistic or the external nature of it. But I've met so many different people through something as basic as car ownership.

I've met so many professionals, mentors, not just successful people, but people who have really deep insight and intelligence that I had no idea that I... Now people that I speak to every day, simply through a common interest that have offered me so much from a business perspective. Yeah, all sorts. So it's quite fascinating, really. Yeah. What does it tell you about yourself and I guess working for something and being able to enjoy things at the same time? Yeah, definitely it is a bit of a big event, but it's more about, for me, somewhat reckless in that in my past, especially the last, probably since adulthood, I've had a lot of setbacks health-wise.

Yeah. Many, many of them that have taken away long periods of times where you're supposed to be enjoying yourself or traveling or socializing throughout my 20s and my late teens. So I almost feel like it's more justified in indulging in that because I've had so much time taken away from me through a whole range of health issues where I should have been indulging with that time. Yeah. Yeah. Talk me through those health issues and I guess the impact they had on you and what you learned from them and how they've kind of shaped you as the wonderful human you are today.

Sometimes I'm grateful for them and a lot of people would probably tell you this. When you've had some hardship, I think it is really good for your character, which is a simple thing to say, but when you realize that health is just at the basis of, it's a starting point to able to do anything else or experience anything else, you really need to have some level of health to be able to do anything else. So when that's taken away from you and you have very little choice and you're potentially suffering or restricted, it gives you a lot more respect for empathy for other people that are going through the same thing.

That's one thing I've definitely learned and understanding. And I share that now with some of my closer friends that are going through issues that I have in the past and definitely makes you respect the smaller things and the greater things that when you enjoy them, you realize how lucky you are because you could still be in that hospital bed or you could still be not walking or you could still be having some horrible health issue, which is basically tying you to a room for months or even years in my case on end. So yeah, it just makes you appreciate more, of course.

Yeah. And I guess perspective and enjoying the good things, like all the little things, having that gratitude day to day of just being is really, really important. That's something that I've been kind of with work and with everything going on, I've been kind of fighting with that, wanting more all the time. And the last probably two, three, four weeks, it's been something I've kind of working on without really thinking about it. Last two, three, four weeks, every morning I write down three things I'm grateful for. And I think just that makes you look at the day differently and it's really, really important.

Yeah, perspective is everything. To give you an example, I remember waking up feeling pretty shit one morning with a number of my chronic health issues really getting me down as they do. The worst thing about chronic health issues is that obviously they're not going away, but they have a long lasting psychological effect. Because deep down inside, you wish that they're never going to be there, but they're always going to be there. And even when you're riding high and you feel fantastic, deep in the back of your mind, you know that it's going to come back. Yeah.

You know that those healthy issues are going to creep and pull you down again. You know it's fleeting and you're eventually going to be feeling shit again. I spent the vast majority of my life feeling that way. To give you a perspective in a lot of times in my life, just wearing a t-shirt was an absolute privilege and like just to walk down the street in the t-shirt and for there to be warm weather and feel comfortable that way. Yeah. It was a huge deal and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. Being a person who's pretty much covered in dermatitis from birth.

Yeah. I've spent so much of my life not even being comfortable being able to wear a t-shirt as an example. Which is a crazy thing to fathom. It's something that no one would think about. Yeah. So then when you feel the warm weather on your arms and you feel just perfectly comfortable in your own existence walking down the street, it gives you huge appreciation for the very, very basic things which people take for granted. As you're saying, what things do you feel grateful for today? And that can be even as simple as that because you might not have had those simple things in the past.

Yeah. So, and I think we, if we were to lose those simple things, then you realise their value. It's the ability to in the moment be able to enjoy what you have. It's really, really important. What are the things that kind of got you through those times in the hospital bed and the tougher days? A lot of it was kind of patience, I guess. I can't say it was all like, I don't know how to put this. I can't say it was all my like toughness that got me through. A lot of it was, a little bit of it was, I guess, having a bit of, it sounds cringy, but having a little bit of hope.

Yeah. Getting help from other people. A lot of times when I was in a debilitating position, it just took time. And these tiny little incremental steps day by day, I sort of worked my way out of a number of those holes. And I think seeing the horizon is the hardest thing to do, really. That's the hardest thing to do. So, yeah, I can't say that I like questioned myself and, you know, faced my fears. Had that one magnificent moment where you're just like, I'm going to be okay. Exactly. Just like a movie. I never, when

I had crawled my way out of shitty health situations in the past, it had never been that flick of a switch or anything like that. It's always been a very gradual crawl from the bottom back to some sort of normality. And actually, it was interesting when I first met you at Rebel Sport was just when I was crawling out of one of those holes. And then getting that job actually as a, I don't know how God knows how many years ago it was now, probably eight years ago or something like that. Yeah. What do you mean?

Almost 10 years ago. Almost 11 years ago when I started. I started 11 years ago with Jack. So just getting that job. That's crazy. Yeah. Just getting that job was a period where my immune system had somehow without medical intervention stabilized to the point where I could leave a semi-normal existence and be happy. And getting that job and meeting all you guys was one of those periods where I'd sort of climbed my way out. That's really cool. How important was it being able to have that sense of normality for a while and kind of throw yourself back into those situations for your, I guess, mental fortitude and happiness for a better term?

Or was it a continual battle when you actually got out or felt like you got out? It was certainly easier. It's always a continual battle. Anyone will tell you as a chronic illnesses will tell you it's a continual battle. Sometimes it's easier than other periods. For me, it's harder when I'm stressed or harder when it's hot and there's lots of allergens and stuff. But yeah, the battle got easier essentially. And sometimes I can't even really tell you why it got easier. That must be almost the most frustrating thing, not knowing what variables are. There's so many variables and yeah.

It's like a bunch of levers and you've got to push and pull some of them and you don't know which ones actually make a difference. Yeah, relating to diet and your environment very much so. It's hard to know sometimes why things are even going right or why things are going wrong. Yeah. It's usually easier to know why things are going wrong. But yeah. So many different factors. That's right. What's it what's it taught you, I guess, now, like, say 10 years down the track? What's it taught you about looking after yourself and doing what's right for you rather than kind of following whatever fads out there at current time?

Yeah. Health-wise, I've never followed any fads. Even when I was really sick, I never went on some crazy diets or I restricted myself to certain foods, but I never went too crazy on fads and changing my intake or what I was doing or doing any sorts of crazy treatments. I think when I was younger, I tried, my mom was so desperate to help me. I tried kinesiology and even, I think, when I was heavily sick and consistently having infections and staph infections and things like that, I was, I went to a psychologist who was trying to teach me to, I guess, reach my subconsciousness and disconnect from my shit situation, which I found, I'm not super skeptical.

I do believe in meditation, but I found it really hard to get to that place at the time because I was so unhappy and negative that I just, you know, I think I would have felt better just knocking a brick wall down with a sledgehammer rather than meditating. At that point in my life, now I'd probably rather meditate. Yeah, but I think that's important to identify that meditation is really important. Knocking a wall down with a sledgehammer is probably important sometimes, but you've got to be understanding and aware of where you're at and what situation

you're in, because like you said, I'm sure now you'd probably rather meditate, and I'm sure there's times in my life where, like, if you told me to meditate, I would have told you to get fucked. Where is it? Like, you just want to kind of expel that energy or those frustrations out, and you've got to kind of let yourself, let your brain figure out how it wants to deal with something. I think a lot of practitioners, a lot of individuals, like just general people, try and kind of pigeonhole you into this is the one way to do it, this is the one way to get better if you're struggling with this.

But it's kind of, it sucks, but you've got to figure it out for yourself, which you've done to a point. Yeah, I think definitely into my adulthood, I do a lot of things my way, especially since my health issues and since having my major surgery a few years ago on a tumour, that sort of plays into working for myself and enjoying myself, doing a lot of travel and stuff, treating myself as you would say. Yeah, that definitely came out of questioning what do I want to do, and that takes a long time. For some people, that takes even until they're 50 years old.

Some people never get there. That's right, even I see my grandmother, who recently passed away, she probably started thinking that way at 75 or even later, and accomplished an enormous amount in the last five years of her life, which sounds crazy, but she really did. Because she chased the things she wanted to do. Exactly, right, and it's very independent and free. But I definitely found, and you're talking about Catalyst for Change, post-tumour was one of the big things that made me purchase that stupid vehicle, was because I just thought, well, it's not so much that

I feel like I deserve it, but I could be in a wheelchair, I could be in a far worse position, I could be in a later stage. So when I crawled out of that hole, I decided that if I have the opportunity to really enjoy myself, then I was going to do so. Well, I've always really enjoyed the way you talk about your car, because everyone's like, wow, that's a supercar, that's a McLaren or whatever, and you're just like, it's just like a piece of metal with four wheels. It's just an enabler. An enabler, so

whatever is your thing, and hopefully it doesn't cost you too much time and money, but whatever is your thing, whether it's playing football or trekking or whatever it is, or that too. Yeah, whatever it is, you've got to chase it and do it. For sure, for sure. See how far I can go. And then you hope that, in the meantime, it could potentially, I mean, this is a well-tread path that people talk about, but if you can turn it into some sort of monetary benefit, then that's like the end goal. Yeah, I think so many people kind of just sit in their job that they don't like or doing things they don't like because they're scared of it failing.

But the thing I've kind of learned over the last couple of years is if you find something you love doing and you chase it, whether it makes you money or not initially, because you love doing it, you'll keep finding that next person to talk to or that next network to jump into or the next opportunity. I had one of those days yesterday where we had a couple of meetings up in the city and met a couple of people that we hadn't met before and were kind of just beaming afterwards because so many different opportunities and ideas and things came out of meeting people that we'd never talked to before.

But we'd only chase that because, like, I love the podcast side of things, I love talking to people, so we'd only really sort that out because I was doing something I enjoyed doing. And I think that's really awesome that you've been able to do that and you've been able to see that this is what I want to do and you just do it. So many people just chop it and stop it and don't actually chase it. Yeah, they stopped themselves before the movement started, really. Why? Fear is always the deciding factor. The situation where, you know, it's not just fear, there's so many legitimate reasons, whether it's monetary or you've got a family that you need to support.

You know, if you have four children, it's not going to be that easy to have, you know, a side business, which is not that easy. Possible, but certainly not easy. But I think just telling yourself that no, I can't do that, which we're all guilty of and I'm guilty of all the time, I restrict myself, is where things can stop before they start. What is your why? Why do you get out of bed in the morning? Big question. What gets you out of bed? In the morning or in the afternoon, depending on whether you've been reading late at night?

What keeps me up at four in the morning? Reading articles from the US and watching what analysts have to say at three o'clock in the morning about what Facebook's latest earnings are, or this morning I was listening to the American banks had their quarterly earnings update. So that's what I was listening to it probably 2am to 3am this morning, which I think the great thing about that stuff, which might sound so peculiar or mundane to other people is if there's something like that, that's keeping you up at 2am and you really don't care. And in between your workout, you're looking at it.

And when you get home, you're looking at it. And even when you're tired, you're still just reading articles. That was the flick of the switch. And I realised that, oh, I don't feel like I'm working. That's when I realised I should be allocating capital and trading stocks rather than doing what I'm doing, because it comes so easily. Yeah, that was really the clincher for me. If there's something that you do that you don't feel like you're working. And again, it's a basic concept, but a lot of people don't capitalise on it. Well, it is a bit of a cliche.

It's a simple thing to get your head around. But I think the reason why it's cliche is because it's so it's a thing like it's like cliches are cliches because they're things that a lot of people have identified the same issues with and I think, yeah, people go on that's bullshit woods. It's not if you actually follow it and chase it and things like that. But I don't think you like we have a lot of kids come through our internship program and stuff like that. And they just have no idea what they want to do. Yeah, cool.

Go experience stuff like exactly like I figured out what I wanted to do by doing things that I didn't enjoy. That's right. And that just kind of pushes you, funnels you in. Yeah. It's really important. Yeah. Tell me about what did you study at uni? What job did you get into? Yeah. And what do you do now? Big question. They're like many people of that generation, very different from start to finish. So I finished school. I was very interested in social studies. Thought that I wanted to become a teacher like my mother. Yeah. Shout out. Yeah.

Finished a major in sociology at Monash. And essentially didn't know what I wanted to do like many people. And through a family, I got an offer to do just a very basic job at a finance company. And I thought, well, while I'm thinking about whether I want to do a post-grad in teaching or a post-grad in something, at least I want to save some money, do some travel, get some experience of actually life and what working is like and get to know what working in a big corporation is like. I stayed there for five years. I really enjoyed vast majority of my time and grew exponentially, particularly in eventually after a couple of years getting to manage teams.

Yeah. That was a huge learning curve and I think a huge character building exercises, managing people. That's something that I think is just absolutely profound and endless in the way that you can approach it and build yourself through managing people. And it's just endless challenges and benefits and brilliant things that come out of managing a team. That's my biggest challenge at the moment is just managing everyone and making sure that everyone's moving forward and following the things that I want them to do, but also ticking the boxes that they want to do. Oh, yeah. I really enjoyed my time in those general electric finance, which doesn't really exist anymore.

One of the things that I enjoyed the most was most of my staff were all uni students, so they were doing pretty basic account actioning and call center type roles. And to see them sort of finish uni and then move on to these other roles related to their degree, that was the most rewarding thing that I found. And I really, really enjoyed that for a few years, particularly seeing them grow as people and then move on to that role that they really wanted, which was huge. Over time, somewhere in between that five years, I developed this interest through wanting to invest some money that I had in stocks.

I can't exactly tell you how that interest began. But I think it comes from also with the sociology degree, people say that essentially with an arts degree, you'll get a job at Maccas, which really is true in a way. If you don't use it correctly, if you don't do a postgrad or then try and build upon that. But I truly believe, even though you might, a lot of people think they're not related, the personal development and particularly the analytical skills that I gained through an arts degree has helped me enormously in trading and investing massively,

because a lot of the way that I invest and trade and my work is looking at from a sociological point of view, what are people doing? Where are they going? What are they buying? What do they want? Where are they migrating to? What demographics are showing what sorts of behaviors? And I've been fascinated with this stuff since I was about 16 years old. And so, yeah, in the last, I'd say, over the last six years, I've applied all those, that thought pattern and into my work that I do now. So, yeah, and I just absolutely love it.

I have a real passion for just analyzing businesses through the scope of how they interact with people. What's it like working for yourself now rather than working with a big corporation or a big company and above a bunch of people? You're in charge. Come February, I'll be self-employed for, self-employed with quotations for two years, which is pretty daunting. And even, you know, one of the things is a person who trades and who, as an investor, a lot of people will look to patronize you and say, oh, you don't really have a job, you know, you're disallocating capital.

Even that, that's one of the things that's been a challenge, especially lately, that people just will discredit you for not being in that box or not having a business. Well, I have a business, but it's, you know, an employee of one and director of one. Which seems incredibly enticing at some time. Yeah, for sure. You only have yourself to be annoyed at if you don't get the results. That's right. And sometimes that's a good thing. Like, I get angry, you know, you have to be very much questioning yourself consistently, really questioning yourself, which can be emotionally difficult.

But it's good. Well, that self-reflection, I guess, for the bulk of the general population doesn't happen or doesn't happen very well. That's right. And you see so many people, and I've worked in offices for a number of years to know, and I see the same patterns over and over and over and over in people who work in large corporations and offices. They will spend 50% of their time post that day complaining about everyone else other than themselves. And that comes through managing probably over my time, you know, 100 plus people. Everyone is near constantly blaming everyone else about their lack of skills, knowledge, and not actually questioning themselves.

And questioning, do I know enough? Am I good enough at my job? Etc, etc. Now, most people who don't do that, the buck doesn't actually stop because they're in this sort of machine, this augmented machine, which rarely makes them question themselves. You know, there's results and reporting and stuff for performance, but really, a lot of people are so easy to complain on. Yeah, they can hide behind other things and just kind of handball something, like throw someone else under the bus. Exactly right. It's always easy to handball. It's always easy to play politics. When I screw up with the trade, when I make the wrong call, I've got no one else to blame.

And that's why I was just talking and having lunch before. When I screw up, I sort of get over it pretty quickly because You have to. I have to. I can't dwell on it and complain about it for too long because things are continuing on and I need to, you know, learn from that mistake and move on and change my thought process or find the next idea. So, you know, I don't do what I think is great about being self-employed. I don't do a lot of venting. I've had partners and housemates in the past where they spend the first half hour after every single day venting about how their boss is an asshole, their co-workers are assholes, blah, blah, blah.

But they do very little self-reflection about the number one thing is what can they do about this? They don't want to get to that point. They just want to complain. Because it feels good. Because it feels good. Exactly right. And then tomorrow they'll do the same thing. Go back to repeat, repeat. And then three years down the track, they'll complain that they didn't have career progression and they're not happy in their job. The only person to blame is themselves. I think that's so important when people start to understand that. Like, have you read Jocko Willing's book on ownership?

I've seen you post about it. I've posted about it a bunch of times. That guy's so full on. He's way too full on to listen to it all the time. But really, simply, if we put it in a paragraph, everything that happens to you, everything you do, the way people react to the things you do, it comes back to ownership on you. And that ability to understand that changes everything. Because if my staff don't clean up after themselves after a session, then I've got to look at, well, what am I doing that's not allowing them to do that or not causing them to feel the need to do that.

So I've got to change the way I manage it. If I get home and KP should be at me, all right, what have I done? Like, what have I done or what can I do to make it a better environment so that that doesn't happen? And I think that mindset shift from all these bad things or all these things that I don't like happen to me to all these things happen because of me changes everything. And I think both self-employed for the same amount of time, you learn that pretty quick because otherwise you're cooked. Yeah. And even a lot of people who own businesses, they fall into the trap of thinking that staff are all shit.

They just think that all their stuff is shit and I keep having high turnover because it's their fault. And they don't look deeper than that. And they think that all their problems are caused by their staff. But there are just so many levels to, you know, we could go through them, but obviously, they don't all just, a lot of them start with the employer. And obviously, you've got lots of individuals who, you know, they don't work hard, they don't care about having put any value on the business that they work for. But ultimately, it's up to that employer to find people and motivate them.

Well, recruitment is important. And we've had people in the past that, like, amazing people just didn't fit and moved on. And I guess being able to learn from that, those, not necessarily mistakes, but those experiences and being able to apply it next allows you to keep growing, allows you to keep improving. And like, I'm sure your, all with all your trades that you make, learning from the past ones is incredibly important. But it's kind of that quote, which is, look back at the past, but don't stop and stare. So yeah, so it allows you to move forward.

Definitely, definitely. And then the thing that, which is a real Rubik's Cube for my job is, some of those lessons that I learned from the past actually change again and become the right thing. So someone can be doing extremely well with a particular strategy for six months a year, two or even three years, and the game changes. And then those, all those sorts of industries and businesses that they're looking at as a story, for example, whether it's Bitcoin or whether it's Tesla and the proliferation of lithium using batteries, that story will end and there'll be a new story.

And then just because you've done so well on that, you know, you have to change your strategy and thinking. So that's what really intrigues me about this game and I find it so interesting because every morning I wake up, the world changes and I can adapt to that. You have to adapt, exactly. And I can find information at every corner of the globe. And that's why my job is so interesting, I think in 2017. Whereas if it was 1985, it'd be really, no, it would be interesting. One or two sources of information and that's it. That's right.

The other problem is there's a real overload of information with very little worth, but it still gets me up and keeps me up at night. And I find it really fascinating because things change so quickly today. How do you differentiate between all the different, I guess, like, cannibals of data coming in at you from every website and everything? Like, do you have ones that you trust more than others or do you just kind of follow your gut? That's why there's, I guess, certain traders and fund managers stick to really strict profiles of data as to when a business will pass their criteria for them to say yes or no.

But again, I'm trying to think of a good quote. There can be 100 reasons for yes and if there's one reason for no, you'll say no or vice versa. So sometimes those rules apply too. So that's why it can be a really difficult game because data is so, we're talking about this over lunch, data is so easily skewed and it can say really whatever you want it to say. If you pick, it very much depends on span of time. So if you say that I would rather buy a chunk of gold and hold it for 10 years, you can show 50 graphs as to how gold is better investment than stocks over these different periods.

It's very easy to do. You just choose the right spans of time that you want. And this is the same as, this is how companies in whatever time would say that smoking is not bad for you. You just take that data. You can tweak it. It's the same with gun control. It's the same with fluoride in the water. It's the same with God knows how many other things. You can skew graphs and data and research with, you know, if you want to make a certain bit of data, then you can pick 500 people and skew it.

So that makes my life really, really hard. Sometimes, yeah, I always have a mixture of fundamentals. So when I'm looking at something, I look at the fundamentals and I look at a bit of, obviously, lots of statistical evidence. And sometimes I do also look at graph work. So some people, some traders barely look at what a company is or what their people do or what they sell. They purely look at the numbers of... And you look really deep into what a company is saying. I do. And so I'm what people would call a fundamental investor. So I look at the fundamentals of a business and then make a decision upon that.

Some people who are day traders, purely looking at numbers all day and they make money purely based on whether they see the right inputs in their models and then sell and buy based on those numbers. And that's not what I like to do because my skills are really not, you know, attuned to that sort of trading. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got to follow the way you do it. Exactly. Yeah, exactly right. And some people are remarkably successful in doing the latter, which I was talking about. You know, there's a lot of people who do really well with trading currencies and CFDs and all sorts of things, you know, or even now cryptocurrencies.

But that's really not my game. It doesn't interest me speculating on things or, you know, building models that doesn't really excite me. But I can see why it would excite other people. Can you summarize Bitcoin for the general population? It has no fucking clue. It's such a funny topic. It's one of these things that I've been... I played two sides. It's obviously this huge phenomenon which the market's known about for a long time. The technology the market's known about for a long time. It's scared a lot of businesses, a lot of large businesses which, for example, Bitcoin, and I won't go into much detail, nor would I claim to know anything about it.

When you and I make transactions, a lot of the time you need a third party like a bank, a reserve bank, or PayPal or whatever it is to confirm that transaction. Bitcoin is essentially getting rid of that third party, which reduces cost. And it's also detailed and remarkably efficient technology. So you can have secure payments between two parties without having to pay for use of a service. So the technology is brilliant. And I think it feels like this, and I don't mean to copy lots of other people's thoughts on it, but it does feel like 1998, 1999.

People were making tons of money on this new thing, and they're making lots of money. They're getting super excited, and they're becoming a bit arrogant about it, and telling you, "I've made five times my money this year, and these people have been around for 40 years, and seasoned billionaires don't know what they're talking about." Because I've made 500 times it. I'm 24 years old, and I'm going to tell you where it's going to go next, and all this sort of stuff. Which I think is a bit frightening, really. So again, I'm all for the technology, but speculating, and I get a bit worried when...

I'll go back to what I was saying. So 1998, 1999, everyone pretty much knew the internet was going to change the world. Yeah. We all knew that it was going to have this enormous impact, the internet, and it was going to be used everywhere. Everyone can use it. It was limitless. But who was going to make money from it? That's where it gets really difficult. So in the frenzy, people were buying any possible company with a dot-com on the end of it. I just listened to Elon Musk's book, and they went through that period of time.

Absolute mayhem. So people were putting in... They were taking out loans. You hear a story about people selling their houses and buying Bitcoin. Again, they might do extremely well, but I'm just giving you a scope for this. People were putting in every bit of possible dollar they had into every website. And then once the buck stopped in about the year 2000, the year 2001, we realized that, oh, actually these websites, they're getting thousands and millions of hits, but they're not actually making any money or any profit or actually providing any value or service. People are just checking these websites and clicking on them.

And that problem went all the way up to probably 2014, that a lot of websites have only now worked out, like Google, what people call FAANG, which is Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, and Alphabet or Google, have worked out how to really, and I'm talking really monetize these websites. And that's taken 14 years later. So many of those companies went broke. Obviously, the technology was right. But there's a real feel about Bitcoin as to that point in time. There's the technology and then the ability to utilize it the right way. That's right. And when I hear these people who have this fundamental belief, that's one thing that I always worry about.

Because they're locked into this work, this has to work. It has to work. I have a real fear of anyone telling you, by this, whatever it is, property, it's going to be doubling in seven years. Yeah. It's going to double in 10 years. It's going to be at this price. Yeah. They might be correct. They can't know. It's always going to be a gamble. That's right. They might be correct. And not that I'm completely adverse to risk, but I'm no fundamentalist. And I don't believe in any investment. I'll never advise anyone. Hey, Lockie, put your savings in this stock.

I guarantee, it's a sure thing. I would never ever say that. And I've learned that through many mentors over the years. And many people who are the most monetarily successful people on earth don't talk like that. So, yeah, before I started even making my first trade, I really did a lot of self-education. And if you want to be a brilliant footballer, you're going to watch the greats. You're going to talk to the best coaches. You're going to see how the successful people train and how they prepare and how they work as a team. So, one of the first things I did was really study the GFC and study how that came about and what was happening before and after it.

And studying people who are consistently successful over long periods of time. Because this is a game where so many people don't last long. So, to give you a very general statistic, but for the people who trade short term, so they're buying and selling stocks and buying and selling currencies and stuff, statistics have come out in numerous different forms around 80% to 90% of them don't make money. Really? That's right. So, this is why my grandparents and even my parents and many people will tell you, buy property, don't buy stocks. It's just gambling. I can sit here and talk about however many ways that that's not the case.

Because there are so many ways that it isn't true. If done in certain, if invested in the correct way, the keywords are for the long term. But I like to keep a basic approach in terms of just keeping a balanced approach. Yeah. Well, I think that's important because I think the reason why you're being successful when you're no doubt continuing to be successful is because you've followed it because you like doing it and it's a passion. I'm sure you probably get kids, people come up to you and be like, teach me how to trade. Yeah. And this comes up a lot.

I just realised I just rambled on for about 10 minutes before. But for some reason, when you say to someone, oh, I trade stocks. Well, is that what you say when someone says what do you do? I generally say I'm a day trader because they sort of know what I do, even though I'm not really a day trader, I'm more of a long term holder of stocks. A lot of people will message me and God knows how many have told me, well, if I just give you money, can you just make money? Like, it's some easy thing to do.

And it's like, if I could do that, I certainly wouldn't be in the position I am now. I would be in God knows where I would be, hopefully still alive. It just doesn't work that way. I was reading an article recently about a well-known journalist in Australia, Marcus Padley, and he was saying not many people, now he gives this analogy, which I think is a bit too far. But he says, if you sat down at dinner with a brain surgeon, you wouldn't say, oh, so how do you soar into a person's head and take out that tumour?

So that's the analogy he gives, I guess, because he's put in decades of hard work, study, and has proven results. So he sees himself as sort of that level. I wouldn't so much say a brain surgeon, but, you know, any professional, for some reason, there's this thing where it's seen as really easy. And it's seen as just... It's because you don't necessarily need to go to uni for five years to do it. You can just... That's exactly right. Because anyone can just open an account and press buy or sell. Anyone can do it. You know, I've pressed buy three times this morning.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. After you've shoved your phone off, just press this button so I'm not responsible. That's right. Yeah. So, of course, anyone can do it. And anyone can claim to do it. That they do it, yeah. And that's the thing that I think I worry about so many people. And that's the thing that goes down to there's just too much financial illiteracy. And all of pretty much my knowledge has come from self-education. And I went to a school which was full of blue blood kids that were, you know, going to become accountants and solicitors and that sort of thing.

And I didn't really get barely any and pretty much everyone can probably relate to this in Australia. We just don't have enough financial literacy taught in schools. Like... When we bought our house, I was like... How does this work? I don't know how this works. How does interest work? I still probably don't... What happens with my repayments? How much principal and interest do I pay? Basic stuff that kids should know at 12 years old that isn't taught. It's absolutely ridiculous. And I hate to be that person bashing on schools because I love my time at school.

But that was just such an obvious thing that I shouldn't have to go and learn myself. I think we're still stuck in that, like, here's the information, like the basic... Maths. Yeah, we're in the 1950s where we need to know, you know, what photosynthesis is. Yeah. We need to know how to use basic trigonometry, like how words work and science. That's it. When people bash on algebra and stuff, I still think that's perfectly fine. I think every kid should learn a little bit of algebra and trigonometry. But at the same time, you need to have more practical information.

It's just like going to the gym now. We used to go to the gym and mostly, yeah, only 15, 20 years ago, and just lift weights. Yeah. And push out... Or just hit machines. Hit machines, run in a treadmill. And now you're seeing the practical level come through. And I've had huge benefit from working with you guys because the stuff is practical. We're lifting things, we're moving things, we're really focusing on tailoring your workout to your endurance and your body. Everything's based on what you've done, but also how you feel when you're walking that day. Like, you'll have some days where you'll like bounce in.

Exactly. And you're up and about, and some days where you'll like crawl in with three coffees. Yeah, exactly. After not sleeping, you'll be training all night. That's right. And I've got to, as a coach, manipulate the session to work for you on that day. And I think we're getting there, and it's definitely not there yet. But like you said, everyone thinks they can be an expert on things that are readily available. Like, training is one of them. And there's something that frustrates me. Like, people go, "Oh, can you write me a program?" Like, things like that.

Or people think they can just go and train themselves, which they can to a point. Like, you can go trade stocks to a point. Like, you can open an account and things like that. You can start moving. But if you want to get the best result, whether it's surgery or stocks or training, enlist someone who knows what they're doing, who has spent the last 10 years studying it. Exactly right. If there was any advice I could give is that, and so many people, much like they ask you for advice on their physical status and what they should be training, that's a long conversation to have.

It's a really long conversation to have. And definitely when, with what the work that I do is, it's often, "How long is a piece of string?" Because there's not a hundred but a thousand ways to skin a cat in making a living from this thing. And, you know, there's geniuses which make a living from having a thousand or ten thousand dollars. And there's so many different ways to do it, levels of risk. And for me, it's all about how old you are. If you see a financial advisor, they'll ask, or they'll say, "What is your scope of time?"

Essentially, where are you in your career? Are you 25 and just starting work? Are you 60 and wanting to retire as soon as possible? How much actual extra money do you have to invest? So there's so many variables. But unfortunately, much like people ask you to have a program to work out and what should I do? Yeah, I get that. What should I do at the gym? Yeah, what should I do at the gym? Good question. For hire a coach, or if you're not going to hire a coach, spend the next six to 12 months heavily researching all the different ways you can train and then spend the next 10, 15 years practicing on yourself.

By then, you'll have a decent-ish idea of how your body responds to exercise and health and food and all these kind of things. I think that's why it's so important to, one, understand the scope of all these different professionals, whether it be a solicitor or an accountant or a trader or a chef, like whatever. Understand all the different scopes, but then know which ones to go to when. That's right. Because then you seek out the issues you've got. You seek it out to the person that can help you. That's right. Like my bookkeeper and my accountant, Tingy, who you know very well.

Both. Tingy on the podcast, actually. They'll be good. He'll just talk about Nando's and not spending money. Just things that aren't very interesting, he'll be talking about interesting things. Yeah, he's got a lot of interesting things. He does. But it's that like, I need to educate myself on, well, is this problem one for my accountant or one for my bookkeeper? And it's the same as, I've got a sore knee. Do I go see a moe or do I see a coach or do I just go see a physio? Physio. Yeah, I think when that, I was talking to one of the boys yesterday and I was saying that I think there should be a, what were we talking about?

Well, this is Dr. Carl. Dr. Carl, shout out. Great, great man. And we're listening to him and he was saying that I'll go see a GP if, like, that's his kind of answer to most health questions. And Coop, who I was driving up the city with, goes, what do you think about him sending everyone to a GP? And I was like, well, I think it's the only real way to do it because you can't tell what, yeah, it's a starting point. But a GP has a very broad knowledge on a lot of different things. But their job should almost be as a contact point to refer out to different people.

So we should almost have a job title that is a professional referrer. Understands what everyone does and then refers out to those people because then people don't get lost at seeing a chiropractor when they need strength training or seeing a financial advisor when they need, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. That's something that's really, really interesting. And I kind of, you'll come in and vent some day for people asking you stupid questions. Oh, for sure, for sure. Just because they don't understand. Not just stupid questions, but there's so much expectation that people are just going to fix things for you and you know what to do.

And then if they're, whatever profession they've got, if you ask them a similar question, they would probably get angry, not angry, but you know, frustrated as well. Yeah. You try and link it back to what that person does. One of my friends is studying to be a dental assistant. She was like, can you write me a program? I'm like, I gave her my little spiel, which is I don't write programs unless you've been trained with me a certain amount of time and you'll understand. And she's like, oh, so it's like telling all of my patients to make sure they brush their teeth three times a day.

I can tell them all of it, but they're not going to do it and they're not going to do it right. And I'm just like, yeah, that is a perfect analogy. Because, you know, I can tell you that it's really, really important to drink a shitload of water and to brush teeth, but if you don't do it, I can't make you do it. You're going to do what you feel is always the way to go. And the thing is, I find a lot of people around my age now getting into the mid to late 20s

to early 30s, they've got this, they've got a greater wage now, they've got bigger dreams about starting a business or trying to build their business or trying to invest more money and they have more scope and the time to do it. And they want to just get me to just tell them what to do. Everyone wants the answer. Wants the answer. And I say, well, I'd suggest reading this person and read that person and go see a financial advisor. Oh, what? I've got to put in effort and time and money. I have to see a financial advisor and I have to read this and I have to read books.

I thought you'd tell me the secret Nick. I thought you'd just tell me how to make millions of dollars out of nothing. It just doesn't work that way in anything, but particularly with that stuff. And it's really crap and it comes back to the education thing that people at 30 years old are thinking, oh, how does money work? Like, oh, I've got a child on the way. I really want to build a future for them. I actually have zero knowledge besides, okay, I shouldn't spend too much. I shouldn't spend more than I have. Incoming should be more than outgoing.

Exactly. I understand that. Besides that and the other thing that too many Aussies have now, which there's this big change, especially with our generation, a big change in thought process. Our grandparents and parents have this very Australian idea of, okay, so when you've got some money, you build up a deposit and then you buy a house and then you pay that house off and then you buy a unit and then you get that unit and then you pay that off and then you buy another house in an outer suburb and then you become like the

six million other Australians as a property developer and you buy a house with a bit of a backyard and then you have to put units on the back of that. That's not much of a plan. It's a plan because Australia's had 26 years. It's a long-term risk, like fairly risk-averse, tick the boxes, boring. Well, not just boring, but it's short-sightedness in some respects. But it's based on, I hate to say a cliche, but it's based on being in a very lucky situation where we've got this huge population increase, which has not slowed down and has been brilliant for people.

And we're in this tiny population for a huge country. So if you're buying property, it's been the answer for probably the last three generations of Aussies. But now I've got a lot of my friends saying, "Okay, so I need 60K just to get in and then I'll be financially hindered a fair bit after that point. What else can I do?" And I think more and more people are going to start to do this. And the great thing is that you've got the internet and the wealth of information and far more choices, obviously some are riskier than others, to invest your money elsewhere.

Now, I'm no person who says to put all your money in one certain thing. In terms of brushing your teeth every day, in terms of that analogy, a lot of fund managers will tell you to put 30% of your money in cash, gold, or in these days, I guess you could put some in cryptocurrencies or Bitcoin if you choose. I'm not saying I recommend that, but bonds, cash, and that. 30% in stocks or ETFs and 30% in property. I think if you're able to do that, I think that's a good split. It gives you some diversification and if you choose wisely and educate yourself, you can do pretty well.

What percentage of my current financial portfolio should I put into Supercards? Because I reckon I could get a nice line of Hot Wheels cards to sit on my desk. Yeah, I'm no good parent in that case. I would say, "Do as I say, not as I do." That is genuinely the worst saying ever. I hate it. It is the worst saying, but it rings true. Well, that's okay. Cliche is a cliche. Because I would never, ever, ever recommend anyone allocate as much capital of my total wealth into cars as I would. I would never suggest that to a single soul on earth.

Anyway. One more week? Yeah, one more week. Yeah, very excited. It's black. It's got some orange highlights. It's going to look like a rolling spaceship and be taken to Phillip Island late November. Awesome. Which will be awesome. So you'll be reaching the Phillip Island straight. I hit about 275 or about 270 kilometers per hour along the straight in my last car, which was particularly interesting because along the straight in Phillip Island, you have this very long straight which passes the finish line. And then you come over a crest and you come into turn one. And then there's a, I probably told you this before, but there's a side breeze that comes across at times over this first angle.

So you're slamming on the brakes or at least pushing hard on the brakes while the car is shimmying at about 270 to two. I can't remember what speed you take that first corner. But this next one I'm thinking I'll be hitting 290 to 300 k's per hour. So which is unfathomable for most of us. It's going to be interesting for an absolutely useless driver as well. Yeah, you got to go next year when you're doing that. Yeah. Kevin, go next year when you're doing that. Yeah. You've always got a professional driver. My absolute basic amateurish self, I wouldn't want it any other way.

I happen to have a professional co-driver with me at all times giving professional advice. Maybe in the future, I'll eventually get to the point where I'm a bit more confident and have a bit more skill. But at this point, yeah, happy to have an instructor. Yeah, awesome. That's very exciting. Tweet the conversation a little bit. Yeah, sorry. Don't apologize for me. Talk to me about your childhood growing up, going to primary school, high school, dealing with a lot of stuff. Health wise, I grew up down here. I grew up on the peninsula. I could not wait to get out of the peninsula.

And then it took me a fair amount of time to get out of here because of, again, health reasons. And just generally, it took a while to move out. But yeah, I went to a primary school, which I thought was comparatively a really good school. I went to Haileybury College, which I also really enjoyed. Throughout my childhood, had lots of health issues. I was born with cataract in each eye, which I'm still dealing with now. I was born with severe asthma, which I was hospitalized a couple of times. I was born with severe debilitating dermatitis,

which I've managed on and off all my life, which has gone through stages of being fine to absolutely life controlling, which was, again, as I said, really character building. And then a few years ago, had a seven centimeter by four centimeter tumor in my femoral head, or the top of my leg bone, I guess. Big leg bone? Yeah, big leg bone. Next to your hip? Yeah, which pretty much took up all of my hip, which was a big ordeal. If you look at your leg, and for those listening, get seven centimeters by four centimeters and put it there.

It's a big avocado sized thing in my bone. So that was a big deal. I essentially thought I was going to die. I was even more, how can I put it, affected by it because I had spent so much of my time taken away from, I didn't get to socialize much in university, I didn't get to make friends, I didn't get to travel for a good five plus years, from 18 to probably 23 was non-existence. Socially, psychologically, it was a shit time. So this is why sometimes, you know, I have two passions, and one is traveling and the other one is obviously trading and analyzing businesses.

And I'm really happy that I get to do those two now. And they feel so much better because I've had these like, I call them like blackout years, where I was essentially a hermit. Which is pretty crazy. Yeah, I was essentially. To know you now and to think. I know, exactly. So yeah, high school, I enjoyed my years, but post high school, I got extremely sick, extremely sick, and basically spent my time with lots of staph infections and just went on very, the strongest possible drugs you could go on for immunosuppressants, which actually made things worse.

And I hit the age of maybe 23 when I came out of slowly, being extremely sick. And that was the same period when I'd weaned myself off all the drugs. So I wasn't taking steroids anymore, I wasn't taking immunosuppressants, and my system somewhat stabilized. So I don't know if that was my body maturing, my immune system maturing or finish, because they say that you sort of finish puberty at 21, depending on the person, your full maturity. I'm still waiting for my grade. Yeah, exactly, me too. Or whether it was the drugs were actually making it

worse, but that was a state of desperation where I would have tried anything and I was on immunosuppressants, which I don't think were even on, I had to sign a waiver for them. So I was on drugs that were so strong that I had to have blood tests every four to six weeks, I think, because it was such an effect on your liver and kidneys. And it was a horrible, horrible time. Yeah, that's crazy. So when I'm sort of coming into the gym at Virtus and you're in this really positive place, and being able to

do it and having the freedom to do that is just huge for me, because I've spent years of my life head to toe bandaged, and I've spent years of my life having no social existence because anyone who's had severe acne or had some sort of physical ailment, which affects your ability to socialize will know what I'm talking about, when you just are constantly self-conscious. And that's the thing that really is discussed a lot more these days. Whether it's obesity or, God knows how many other issues, it just plays a huge effect on your development as a person.

So I feel like I really had a lot of catching up to do with 24/25. And then I feel like I had like a renaissance at 24/25. Post my surgery, my tumor, my life changed dramatically. Talk me through that diagnosis and the, I guess, the process that you went through in getting in hospital and realizing you had a tumor and the diagnosis and then the prognosis. Well, here's a great lesson for people. And particularly, whether it's stereotypical or not, I had pain in my hip for probably over a year. So I thought that I had an injury from kicking, from like throwing kicks with kickboxing.

And I'd torn my, I thought I'd torn my groin. So like a stupid, I don't know, person who just doesn't look after themselves, I just left it. And it got to the point where I kept twinging my hip and have this amazingly bad pain. I thought, "Oh, it's just a torn muscle. It's taking a long time." When it got to the point where I could barely walk was the point where I saw a physio. So I laugh, but it's just a lesson for anyone. And I tell a lot of people this, you know, you really need to look after yourself.

There's obviously a balance between being a hypochondriac and being completely reckless. But you need to listen to your body when things do change and it doesn't feel the same or doesn't feel right. And when it's consistently not getting better, and you're a young person, that's when you really need to seek professional help. And it took a long time for me to be properly diagnosed. So I'll start from the start. I saw a physio and said, "I've got this pain in my hip." And so my hip flexors and all the muscles and my glutes and stuff, it got super tight trying to protect me hitting that tumor.

It was basically the tumor was rubbing on the inside of the hip. And then that's when I'd find this, it felt like nerve-ending pain. And I'd almost fall to the ground excruciating pain. And the recovery was, again, next level pain. I don't know how long we're talking for. But so I saw a physio and had six weeks of remarkable help. So I saw a really hands-on physio who was digging his thumb inches into my hip flexor. And I felt better for weeks on end because he was loosening up all these muscles. - Releasing the tension. Everybody's got an amazing way of protecting whatever injury we've got.

- So I had tight everything around that area and he did a great job in making me feel better. Then I realized it was still hurting. So we thought we got an x-ray initially and it looked like I had a long crack in the femoral head. So a bit peculiar, but they thought I had a crack there. And they weren't exactly sure what it was. So another two or three weeks went by, I got an MRI. And when I got the MRI, the head of the most senior physio, who's a really good operator in Frankston, said, "Oh, you should see a doctor."

And essentially what I thought was just a crack in my bone. I think it was a really pivotal moment. I came from my doctors and as soon as I drove out of the doctors, they called me up as soon as they had the result. And I even remember a really key moment that sticks in my memory. When I had the MRI, the genuine wired look on the face of the people who had just done, and I'm not imagining that, but as I sort of limped away and looked at them, I genuinely felt like they're looking at me like, "That guy should be having treatment straight away."

So I was told, they called me up and said, "You shouldn't be walking. If you continue to walk, you could snap your femur." So I was walking on a femur that could essentially snap in half at any moment, because I'm not a light guy as well. I'm well over, you know, it's a 90 kilo. So it was a wheelchair from then on for the next few months, or not a few months, but not walking for a few months after that. I'm lucky to be walking, really, because I was lucky enough to, once I got the

news, I initially got the drastic news from one doctor at Frankston Hospital, who said, "Look, if this is an aggressive cancer, you're in essentially big trouble, need to be removed ASAP, and considering the size, if this is later stage, you're in big trouble essentially." That was the moment where, with my mother, who I'm very close with, we had a moment to ourselves, and we'd been through so much shit together, so many times I'd had, you know, times in hospital together, operations, and, you know, a long history together dealing with that stuff. Yeah, we had a hard moment, and it was a real realization between two people where we're like, "God, we're going to go through all this shit again together."

So, thank God it was not aggressive, and it was, you know, be able to be taken out by one of the best surgeons, not just in Australia, but in the southern hemisphere, and is at the forefront of new technology and rebuilding people and their bones. And he's been on the news many times for his pioneering work with rebuilding people's joints and all sorts of things. So, I have a titanium rod down my leg, many titanium screws down my femur. I've got about a 40-centimeter deep scar from the top of my glutes all the way down to the bottom of my thigh.

Yeah. And very invasive surgery. Yeah. It looks like I've been hacked away out pretty much because you got so much... Avocado, yeah. Essentially, there was no time for keyhole or anything like that, it was just open me up as wide as possible to get every bit of tumor you could. And thankfully I was a recipient of a donor. So, again, you know, it's an interesting, it's a really enlightening thing being, in any capacity, being a recipient of a donor. It just feels... I don't know how to describe it. It feels amazing and definitely makes you want to give back, definitely makes you want to do something because your life has essentially been...

Saved for a long time. Yeah, I mean, mine isn't a heart, it's not an extreme case. But as I said, even in the smallest of cases, to think that someone's thought process infinitely made your life better and they don't know you, it's a really heartwarming feeling. So, I got donated bone, which essentially was used as like a paste and then your bone will grow with it to grow back faster and more in a normal fashion. So, yeah, that was really cool. What was the timeline between going, well, if this is a faster own cancer, you could be in trouble to knowing, to finding out that it was benign?

I had a good amount of time and I think that few days or maybe that five days or so when I had my consultation with the surgeon and thank God, I was able to be in a place where in Australia that we had this ability because if the situation was different, I probably, God knows what would have happened. There was about a few days or amount of... Those few days were probably... I've had many rough times physically, but those days were up there. Yeah, that'd be horrible. Yeah, yeah. So, they were pretty tough times. But once I was discussing my procedure with my surgeon, I felt a fair amount of confidence, to be honest, because of that person's reputation.

I remember reading feedback about... His name is Professor, it was Professor Chung. Shout out. Shout out to Professor Chung. If you look on the equivalent of urban scalpel, there's literally dozens, and who could be bothered... How many people write reviews of surgeons or doctors? They just sort of go on their way. The amount of people saying, "This person saved my life. This person's changed my life. This is one of the most amazing people I've ever met." To know that I had all those reviews from God knows how many people, and many of the reviews were saying, "Oh, I've been turned away from surgeons.

I've been turned away from doctors, and this man has made me walk again." It's amazing. I felt confident that I had that person performing surgery on me. Yeah, I remember coming with Dan and visiting you after, and you were in pretty good spirits, because it was like, I guess, a touch and go there for a little while, not knowing what it was and all that kind of stuff. It was a very fortunate result for considering. But then, obviously, you had to dive into rehab. Which was very tough, especially the first few days of rehab. The first few days out of the operation are perfectly fine, because you're so drugged up, you don't really care, nor do you feel much.

But, yeah, rehab was pretty rough the first couple of weeks. Standing up for the first time, getting the physio to put you on a board, that was the most up there, the most excruciating pain I've ever had, in terms of doing this with your legs. I'm trying to think of what that is. Abduction, right? Abduction on a board. Taking your leg away from your body. Yeah, abduction was just phenomenal pain. I've never felt anything like that in my life. I felt like I was literally being, I hate to make this expression, because I'm sure a lot of women look back to it, but I felt like I was being literally ripped in half.

It felt that excruciating from that position. And then the other worst pain I had before that was getting the biopsy. So they had a camera pointed, what am I saying the wrong thing? X-ray guided biopsy without a Take out a big chunk of muscle tissue. A mofo. A mofo. That's, yeah, biopsy is scary. A needle, a needle that you don't ever want to see go into another person. Having that go through my hip and the bone and the muscle, and then I was just in absolute sweet agony. It's something I, fingers crossed, will never have to experience that.

Another one that was not fun was when a memory of having a spinal tap is not fun either. I think it depends more on how good the person is that's taking it from you. But my spinal tap was shit house. I'll watch any video of like a knee reconstruction or a hip recurve or anything. I'll watch that and not have an issue. But as soon as you start talking about it and describing it, my mind just goes wild. Even like injuries like a disc a shoulder, people start talking about that and I'm like nah. Not worse, but I feel more grossed out by people talking about injuries than I do when I injure myself.

Which is an exchange one. That makes sense. So rehab took a little while, but how far are we posted now? How long ago was it? 2013, so it's four years. Four and a bit years. And I'm still finding my way really. There's still days where you're a little bit wobbly on that side or you're not moving as well. It's strong. It's a strong side now. Is it a strong side or a stronger side? Yeah, for certain exercises it is. And when you've had really invasive surgery, it's much like the chronic illness. Make sure you're a stronger person.

You have to be accountable to yourself. You can't be reckless. You sit down for five days and you're not going to move very well. Exactly right. It keeps you going and you have to be accountable essentially. You have to look after yourself. That's really what comes out of it. Because it'll never be the way it was, but it's always good to try and see how good you can get it. And that's motivating. What role did your family play in that process? Obviously you've talked about your mum a little bit. Yeah, this is a bit personal. Mum was good.

I didn't really have a partner at the time. It's funny, that was great timing. I'd had a seven year relationship that I finished in March and I had the pain then. And then I had the surgery I think in May. So that was really interesting timing. The biggest thing, and I think this comes to why we're sitting here today, when you're again having a shit time and you're not able to properly offer much to people, is when you really can tell who is someone who's deep enough to be your friend or stand by or help you out.

That knows that you're not actually acting or performing in a particular way because you're dealing with a terrible situation. You can't actually be yourself or be worth much in the material sense, the basic level sense. And there's friends that, it's funny, there's a few friends that I'm really close to now, yourself included, who came out of, not the woodwork, but on that sort of, I don't know if platonics were, but there was sort of that second level of friendship that just stood up and came to see me and called me and saw how it was.

And I found a lot of people who just, you know, weren't really there, but were at the time you would call closer friends, fell by the wayside. And it's, I've only just realised this now, between you and I can think of two others, three others actually, that I talk to regularly now, really surprised me in showing support, asking me how I was, just basic stuff coming to me. It doesn't take that, like it doesn't take that much. But it reveals a lot of character, especially in 2017 when there's a million, we're seemingly a more narcissistic society.

Yeah, that's true. Those things just seem to, you know, so many friendships are just based on mutual benefit and ease, right? Yeah, definitely. Just ease of use rather than actual effort. Last week's podcast I talked with Tulsi and he was saying that as he's getting older, he's realising that he wants to meet less people. Yeah, but put more effort into it. But put more effort into the people he really cares about, which I think is cool. Once you get into sort of mid to late 20s, yeah, a lot of people come to that realisation, you've got less friends and you realise that even those smaller group of friends, they're not just going to hang around.

Both parties need to put in effort. Yeah, 100%. It doesn't have to be work. But if there's not a genuine motivation deep down to help that person out, share things with that person, then it's not going to, like any relationship, it's not going to stay strong. Yeah, well, that's exactly it. And I think they don't have to be the people that you see every day. Yeah. But you kind of know, you've got a fair idea of people that will be around no matter what. And it's interesting being in that shit situation with rehab. I had one old friend which came back into my life, who was genuinely interested to see how I was.

And now we're much closer friends. And I had, as I said, three other friends which I was, that I became much closer with because they actually showed effort and care. And then I thought years later down the track, I'm like, well, I should really live up to that when they're in that shit situation. I'm also having that now with one of my friends who's in a really shit situation. And I can relate to them because I've been there. So all good. You don't want to because you genuinely give a shit, right? Just because you can benefit.

All right, I got a bunch of questions for you. All right, I feel like I've rambled too much. That's the whole point of a podcast. I guess so. Even if we're the only people who listen to it. It's all right. I got a bunch of random questions. I just want you to answer with the first thing that comes into your head. No problem. What is your philosophy? My philosophy is... It's really just balance. I talk about balance a lot. What is balance to you? Because I have this argument with a lot of people. I hate the term balance.

Balance is, I guess, different for everyone. But I guess there's a period where you should... I think there's a period where, for me, balance is the period where you can really lock yourself away and work. There's a period where you should just focus on purely someone else. There's a period where you should... Like, I just had the most brilliant, fantastic holiday I've ever had. And I hate to be that person who says that. But I just had the most amazing holiday. There's a period for that. So there's a period where I think you should be... Knowing what you want and just doing it.

That's a really, really good example of balance. And sometimes, also, all of that thrown out the window. So you need to be there for someone, then whatever you want, it can be put on hold. Yeah, that's good. I like that. Because I think a lot of people think balance is... And this is my kind of perception of balance. Oh, if I do what I want 50% of the time, I work 50% of the time, then I'll have balance. And it's just like, nah, doesn't exist. What are you grateful for? Short answer. Life? All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very short. Basically grateful for health, the people around me, my freedom. I'm grateful for my freedom. I have more freedom than not just most people around the world, but even most people my age. So my health, the people around me and my freedom, essentially. Why do you love to travel? It just is massively stimulating. And I just love going to... I mean, I have traveled a fair bit, but I hate to be maybe narrow-minded, but I have a real interest in multiple European cultures. I love many countries and their history in Europe. And I've been to about now 22 countries and I've been four times.

So yeah, I just love new areas, whether it's Gothic architecture and museums, which I love, or traveling to, you know, countrysides that are just completely different to Australia. Yeah, it's just my interest. I hate to be... It's not that I... Yeah, the Outback doesn't interest me too much. I hate to be like... Go north, it's amazing. I'm sure it is. I have been north and I have been to the center of Australia. But yeah, just I prefer a lush green forest in the UK or a lush green mountains in, you know, Sweden or something like that rather than the Outback.

It's just a preference. It doesn't mean that I think it's bad. If you can travel to anywhere on earth right now that you haven't been, where would it be? What's next? I'm planning to go to Russia and more of Eastern Europe, Serbia and Russia, which I haven't been to before. Yeah. I would like to see, yeah, some of the wildlife. There's a lot of like forest and rainfalls. Rainfalls? Rainfalls? Yeah, waterfalls, rain forest in that part of the world that I'd like to see. If we won't get eaten by a bear. But yeah, that's something that I haven't done yet that I'd like to do.

Eaten by a bear or go to Russia? Yeah, both. What is success to you? I think success is just... I mean, success is all down to perception, really. But for me, I perceive success is consistently, even if it's minute, just improving on the everyday. And even no matter the scale, because you can start from any level, no matter the scale, at least improving and attempting to improve. Or when I say improve, it doesn't have to always be yourself. It can be attempting to improve someone else's life or some other facet of society or something like that.

I like it. So, yeah. If you could give a teenager one piece of advice, what would it be? Oh, geez. I think my teenage self... Oh, be less judgmental. Yeah, that's what I've been thinking later. From the age of 12, I hit puberty and I was really pissed off about my shit situation with my health. And I became a very self-aware, mature 12-year-old, but very judgmental of other kids that were following the trends and that were the cool kids and the bullies and all that sort of stuff. I got so caught up in that for probably till I was like, God knows what age.

And there was this real battle in my mind about those other kids and stuff. And I think I needed to just take a deep breath and relax and just be less judgmental, be more social and yeah, that's what I'd suggest. Awesome. What was the last book you read start to finish? And what did you learn from it? The last book I read start to finish was actually Blade Runner, which... Oh, sorry. That's a nerd faux pas. It's the small book, which is the motivation for the original Blade Runner, which is... Which I'm going to watch tonight or tomorrow, I think.

After the conversation before. Yeah, which is really good. And a bunch of other conversations that everyone keeps pushing. What did I learn from it? I guess I learned that I guess the psychological period in the 60s, there was really took over, especially the US and probably Australia, that impending doom of USSR versus the US and the fact that the future looked pretty bleak. And I think around the same time, 1984 was written. So you can imagine how much influence there was in society about, you know, things can turn to shit at any moment. Everything we know can be turned to rubble.

And there's going to be nuclear fallout. And there's going to be a post-apocalyptic society. And the world in 50 or 60 years is going to look like this war zone between two forces and nothing much else is going to exist. And the everyday lifestyle is going to be bleak, really bleak, you know? So yeah, that's what I learned from it. Are we still at that stage? Is the world still that cooked? No. Are we going to be okay? No, no, who knows? But I think I think they had a very bleak view of it. Yeah.

I guess because they looked at how much propaganda and how much warmongering was happening with the Vietnam War and the Korean War and this mad mutually assured destruction situation and how much fear both governments or one party and government were putting on their people of impending war and nuclear war. So things turned out much better than they thought, I think, for most people. For the most part. What's the nicest thing you've ever done for someone? As soon as you asked that, I said, God, I should be doing so much more. I should be doing so many more nice things.

Oh, you know, I'll probably think of something two hours from now, I don't know. Radio silence. Yeah, I can't think of one. One thing just doesn't stand out. I mean, I've done nice things for my girlfriend. And I say that because it wasn't the magnitude of them. My partner at the moment is a person who has not had many really momentous nice things happen for them or happen to them or been given to them. So the efforts that I've put in have been worth 10 times more than most others, because this person's not used to

being spoiled or used to being given lots of compliments or used to being treated in a nice fluffy manner that so many of us lucky Aussies millennials have been treated like. So I would say some of the things I've done for that person are some of the nicest. And I can see that by their reaction and by their life experience that they've had. So I'd say that, yeah. Awesome. Shout out to me. Who are your biggest influences? At the moment. Currently, I mean, there's some hero fun that is pretty sounds mundane. There's some fun managers that are good influences.

So they're like the stars of the people who do what I do, but in a much grander one million times the size and importance and yeah, so there's some of those. Yeah. At the moment influences, I don't know, I mean, I've had many influences over my life, but at the moment they play a big part. Obviously my, obviously my girlfriend and my family play a big influence, but yeah, they don't play such an influence in I'm very independent at the moment at this point in my life. So yeah, if you could be remembered in one sentence, what would it be?

I can't think of a sentence. This is, this is too, this is too Instagram for me. What, you got to go Twitter, you got 140 characters. Yeah, exactly. Anything, how can you say anything that doesn't sound cheesy? You can't, that's why I like this question. I'm sticking, mate. Really don't have much for you. I mean, just, I mean, most people, I guess, have just wanted to be remembered as someone who was, had some empathy and cared and was a positive influence. Rather than a negative influence. Good. Not much more than that. Nothing wrong with that. Last couple, couple of favorites, favorite movie.

That's so hard. I love Godfather one. And, um, that's such a walkie thing to say, but it's an amazing movie. Cause I, like, I know so many people with different backgrounds and ages that love it for different reasons, whether it's, and it's not about being gangster. None of those reasons have to do with being some tough guy gangster. It's all about setting a scene. It's about storytelling. It's about acting. It's about character development. It's got nothing to do with, oh, I'm a cool guy in a suit and I have power over people and I hurt people and stuff like that.

So that's why I like it. Good answer. Favorite recording artist? Um, or band or group. Oh, I have so many. Just pick one. Uh, yeah. Nirvana is a huge influence when I was a kid. Cause I listened to Nirvana, um, Hate To Be That Guy. But before it was cool, because when I was a little kid, I was my best friend. Um, his dad would listen to all sorts of cool music, like The Doors and, um, Nirvana and all these and Black Sabbath and all these cool bands. So when I was even, you know, eight years old, which was when they were, he'd only just passed away.

Um, we all listened to that in the car all the time and my friend's dad had all their albums, so I was listening to it. So that just stuck in my memory and I was right in there. It wasn't like I hit puberty and started listening to it as literally eight years old. I was listening to Riders In The Storm and I was listening to, um, yeah, Black Sabbath and Nirvana and stuff. So that's cool memory. Last one. Final piece of audio for today. Yeah. A little bit of wisdom for everyone. What's your favorite quote? Oh, you know, one of my favorite quotes is probably one by Aristotle.

I'm trying to think of, um, is it, uh, the Aristotle's quote about, um, entertaining. You probably know the one I'm talking about. I do like the quote. Yeah. Although I love your recent favorite quote, which I actually shared with someone the other day, that, um, comparison is the thief of joy. That's such a great quote. So simple and it's so 2017. It is so 2017 because comparison is just such a, such a thief. You know, uh, it is the market of educated minds to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. And that's what I try and do all the time.

Too many people can't just disagree with you and move on. They have to fight you in the comment section of social media and go bananas and call you a cock or call you a something or a left heart or whatever thing it is. It's just, God, people can't disagree in there. Yeah. They have to ride in the streets. Like, yeah, I love that so much. Yeah. Good. And on that note. All right. You're legendary humans. Thank you very much for listening. If you enjoyed it, please rate and review the podcast. That's how we get more people seeing it and more people around it.

If you didn't enjoy it, please rate and review the podcast and say some very nice things. Lie through your teeth. I don't mind. If you would like other people to see it, please share it. Please subscribe. We've got some pretty cool, exciting guests coming up over the next couple of weeks. If you want to learn more about Virtus, jump on www.VirtusPerformance.com. Follow us on all the social medias. You've got YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and yeah. If you have any questions for me or want to give any feedback for the podcast or want to suggest any topics or people to speak to, or if you'd like to be on the podcast, shoot me an email at info@VirtusPerformance.com.

Have a great day. See you later. Bye.