S1E15 · Tom Terlaak: "Nothing can't be improved"

Hey guys, welcome to the Virtus Performance podcast. This is episode number 15. Today I sat down with the great man Tommy Turlak. Tommy's a bit of a master of many, many trades. He works at Common Folk, so the cafe around the corner from us, which is an incredible place with an incredible community of people. But Tommy works there. His official role is sales and marketing manager, but his unofficial role is to basically help heaps of rad people do some super cool things. He's our photographer. He takes a lot of the photos you guys will see on Instagram and Facebook and our website.

He's away for the next couple of months, so the quality of production will go down significantly, unfortunately, but he's done the majority of those. He does design, a uni degree in graphic design, which we spoke about. He's traveled a lot. He's spent a lot of time in the US. I think he's been there five or six times in the last five years, so he's actually over there at the moment when this podcast is released. So we talked about that. We talked about community. He and a couple of boys from Common Folk, Heath and Bestie, have started a gin appreciation society called Drops of Ginapa, which is pretty cool.

We spoke about that a fair bit. We spoke about just community and friends and family and the importance of, I guess, knowing yourself and finding yourself and learning and improving and embracing all the different people and ideas and things that are happening around you, all the things that help shape you as a person. He's got some pretty cool ideas and opinions and things on how the world works and how you become a good person and things like that. I thoroughly enjoyed spending this time with him. It's our longest podcast to date. We almost hit two hours.

If I hadn't drunk three or four bottles of water, then we definitely would have hit the two hours. This was a lot of fun. Hopefully, you guys get something out of it. Yeah. Enjoy. My personal and business goal is to be just a little bit better every day. I believe everyone, especially normal people, have a story to tell. The Virtus podcast exists to help us all find small ways of consistent improvement by discussing the journey and experiences of each of our guests. Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for coming.

This is going to be a lot of fun. I got a first question for you I'm going to try out for the first time. What gets you out of bed in the morning? It gets me out of bed. Probably doing something that I really enjoy. It's been that way since I first started working in coffee and that kind of stuff. It might be a tough day. You might have to do lots of stuff that may be enjoyable but overall, you enjoy your job. You know it's a good thing. You actually enjoy what you do there today.

I don't know. If you find something you're passionate about and want to do for work, it makes it a lot easier than having to struggle to get out for a job you hate. 100%. And you're always going to have those shitty days when you're doing something you love but at the end of the day, you kind of look back at it and you're like, "Well, it's all for a bigger cause, a greater good kind of thing." But you enjoy that struggle. You enjoy that journey towards the success or the things that you want to do in that job.

If it was all easy, it would be fun listening to a podcast. I was just talking about the difference between tragedy and evil. Tragedy is something that can't be helped. It's just something that's super unfortunate and it's just unfair. Whereas evil is intentional in people. It's really interesting to think about. Basically, the premise is without tragedy, how can we actually be happy? So without the threat of something going wrong or something potentially unforeseen happening and people being taken out of their lives or crap things happening in work, you will never actually cherish the good stuff. You don't have the other side.

It actually is not possible without that unknown tragedy potential. We use a water analogy. You don't know what cold is until you've been super hot or you've touched super hot water and vice versa. It's all relative. So dealing with some of the crap stuff at work definitely makes it cool, worthwhile when the good stuff's good. Yeah, I like that. I really like that. We're actually having a very similar conversation about what you love. How do you know what you're doing now is what you should be doing? Oh, man. This is something that I've been struggling with since high school.

Basically, high school I thought I was going to go into design. I was going to go study that. I worked on my portfolio, did all the right stuff, didn't get into RMIT, which I wanted to, but had a good enough score that I could get into a double degree doing business and design. He did that, was going along for a year and a bit, and then Caleb was at church. What a man. Yeah, good dude. He needed some help in the roastery, got me on board just to help out just lifting things. And that's how you got into coffee.

That's how I got into coffee. Since then, I've been really loving what I'm doing. I feel like probably what I've been good is taking opportunity when it arises. That's something I'd really recommend. If an opportunity pops out, weigh it up. Why not? I don't know. It's something I've always done is seize any opportunity you can for growth and learning. Yeah. So then, been in coffee ever since. Yeah, but that question of how do you know it's the right thing, I don't even know if it is. Good. You can't know. You can't know. What I would say is there's probably elements of it that are the right thing.

So my journey has been going through working. I didn't realize I have to be working in something that's quality based and can be improved through effort and hard work. And it has to involve people and helping people get better at what they do. Those are the two requirements. So whether that's in some kind of service industry that could work, whether it's like a different kind of quality product, maybe like brewery or wine making or a baker or something. It doesn't really matter what it is. I think it's like whatever it is, as long as it's quality focused and it's people focused, that's me.

Well, it doesn't really matter what field then. You can kind of do whatever you want. I do love coffee, but I can take or leave it, to be honest. I love it, but also it's not the thing that... It haunts me. Yeah, totally. I could literally leave coffee tomorrow and be like, "Cool," and have no hangups on it, as long as I could do something that involved making something better than when I first got there. That's a big thing for me. What is your role within the coffee industry? What do you do? Oh, at the moment.

For those listening at home. So many people would see me sitting in combo, and I'd be like, "Cool." And I literally would get this question like twice a week if not more. You just make gnarly coffees for me. So what do you actually do? I'm like, "It's kind of one of those ones where I do lots and lots of little things, and it's one of those ones you won't notice it, but you'll notice when I'm not there," kind of thing. All the little things I hope... You hope. Well, fingers crossed, all those kind of little things.

But I think helping other people be better at what they do, encouraging others. But my actual role is sales and marketing for Common Folk, so doing the little things to try and make Common Folk better, make us more marketable, hopefully bring in some more accounts, some more revenue, those kind of things. Yeah. So yeah, basically just how we're promoting Common Folk the way we want to be promoted, getting that internal culture out, outwardly in our branding and stuff. Cool. Yeah, that's kind of the cool thing that even I was like, "Fuck, does Tommy do?" Yeah, totally.

But at the same time, you see you've got your finger in a bunch of different Common Folk pies, and you see the value you add to each of those things. I had the Snakehole Boys on a couple of weeks ago, and we were talking about you, and I was just like, "Yeah, I think he's helped out with every shoot we've done ever." With every range. It's like helping, it's like... Yeah, I don't know. If you could put it down, what are the five things you do at work, or for work? Five things for work. So it would be all of our graphic designs, anything visual or any visual communication.

So using your degree? The degree I never finished, that one. Hey, been there. Yeah, man, I wonder how many people in coffee and those kind of industries have unfinished degrees. How far did you get in? Exactly halfway. Okay. Into a four-year degree. Yeah. Yeah, so... Why did you pull the pin? I just felt like the degree was never going to give me what I wanted. I was doing what I wanted to do, or I felt like I was doing what I wanted to do at the time. And that degree was just literally going to waste my money with hex, waste my time, zap all my resources and all that kind of stuff.

It was like, "Eh, it's not going to get me further in the industry that I want to be in." Cool. Yeah, it just definitely felt pressure. Tough decision to make. Yeah, parents wanted me to continue, and we had that conversation and many conversations about, "Okay, well, it's fine, but you need to make sure you're doing what you can to be successful and learn and grow and all those kind of things," which is good. Good to have that encouragement as well. It's a bit confusing. I think coffee was pretty confusing in that respect because even if

you had told me in high school that I would be working coffee, I'd be like, "You're crazy about doing a lot of coffee with the hand." There's no way. But yeah, and then to wrap your head around hospitality being a career, not just like a, "But what are you doing after this? This is just your in-between job, surely." This is why you're waiting. Well, in-between jobs, when you've figured out that that's what you want to be doing, I guess your vocation or your last work, you don't have to be doing the same thing all the time.

Totally. And I just can't see myself ever being suit and tie, traveling for work on the train in the morning. Man, if you can do that, that's amazing, but I just can't picture myself as that. Everyone's cut a little bit differently. Everyone's cut a little bit differently. And if you can do what you love, man, I spend way too much time in common folk. You spend way too much time here. We're probably clocking like 60-hour weeks easily. Yeah. Well, it's Saturday afternoon. We're talking work and stuff. Clocking way too many hours, but it doesn't feel like much because you're doing what you love and if you had your free time, you'd be doing similar anyway.

So I think that's super important. What advice would you have for students and young kids who are in a degree or thinking about going to a degree who go to themselves, "Well, is this what I want to be doing or do I actually want to finish it?" Because I've done my bachelor, but I pulled the pin on a masters 12 months in when I realized that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing. I think feel confident that you're allowed to not have to finish it. There's so much pressure to be like, "Well, no, that's a success is you finished your degree, you finished your masters.

You can be successful without that." And I don't know, is it actually going to make you happy finishing that? And some people it will and some people it won't. I don't know. It's so tough to feel, I don't know, confident in your own abilities outside of that degree though sometimes. If I don't get this degree, can I make it without that kind of thing? And if you feel like you can, be confident in that. Talk to people, have people around you. Unless you're in a field where you need the degree to actually work. Medicine. If you're going to be a doctor, stay in school kids.

Stay in school. But it's kind of interesting because I guess in our environment we've got all kind of levels. Like Greg's got his masters, Katie and Ash are studying their masters at the moment and they're balls deep in that, like smashing themselves and doing an amazing job working at the same time. You've got Mitch, he's a bad finish, he's a bachelor. I finished mine a couple of years ago. Everyone's kind of at a different stage. You've got Cam who's probably one of the smartest amongst us, but he's done his stocks down at three and four. You just didn't agree with him, which is fine.

And we have kids come in to do our internship and I say kids, some of them are our age, but they come in to do our internship and they might be through a masters or like half through a masters or finishing a masters and they don't have that life experience and that knowing of actually being able to coach and being able to teach and be able to do those things. They're just so stuck in the mindset of like sucking in information, which we kind of, when we're at school for all the primary school or high

school, straight into a uni degree, you end up being 20 years of just book, no life smart, no street smarts, no ability to use that information and think critically and things like that. And the people that don't agree with school tend to be the ones that you look at now and they're kind of kicking goals because they go against status quo and they don't want to just dive into a nine to five job or something stock standard. They want to start their own. They want to create and they want to, that's it. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting.

Everyone's so different and like, yeah, that's the thing. You do you pretty much. So like my middle brother, he just didn't agree with conventional school, left in year 11, became a landscaper, finished his, his apprenticeship and now he's like happy as like, I've never seen the kid like so switched on about like learning things like, yeah, like plant varietals and like all these kinds of things. I'm like, how the heck do you know that? Like you couldn't even like just open a book and study like at school. But now like so switch on, got an investment property, just bought a house with his fiance, like switched on and successful.

And that was his path. And that wasn't traditional school. Like that's allowed. And we're told from an early age to kind of sit down and listen and put a hand up when we got a question. Yeah. So many of us aren't built that way. And we, you know, for me, it took me 20 years to figure that out. Yeah. And 22 years to figure it out. And I think now that I'm in an area that I want to be in, like I want to spend that time listening to podcasts and reading and learning about the things that I'm passionate about.

And I think those two things go hand in hand, passion and success. Everyone's got a different version of success. And I'll ask you yours in a second. I'll ask you yours in a second. But as soon as we kind of let ourselves be ourselves to a point, and I think we need that formal education to a point because it, it allows you to decide what you want to do or how you want to do it. Rather than just, yeah, it doesn't tell you how, I don't think it tells you how to do it. I think it's just a, it's a medium that we need to a point.

Yeah. And there's certain things you definitely need, like traditional schooling is going to provide most of what you need to be a functioning member of society. I would have been nice to tell me about, you know, mortgages and loans and all that stuff. I still don't know. I've got a house, I don't know how mortgages work. But anyway, carry on. You've got someone helping you out. We'll get there. Thank you for KP for being you. She's keeping my head above water. But yeah, I feel like as well, like, and then I was one of those kids and it sucks to say, but I was one of those ones that didn't have to try hard.

Yeah. And school came easy. Pretty hard. Yeah. But school came easy. And like, you feel, I don't know, you feel like I'm wasting it. And that's kind of a big thing I've struggled with. I know a lot of people like our age in society now, like, who are dealing with that kind of stuff of like, I'm so kind of, I'm intelligent, I can do many things that I have a lot of interest in learning good at and kind of floating because you feel like, got this massive, like fear of missing out generation. I think everyone's like, but what if I could have been doing that thing?

So like, I do photography, I do design, I like music, I like coffee, I like all these kind of things. Like, and I could have I could have picked a career, I could have picked anything, I could have studied anything at uni, but you kind of, you've always got that. But what if but what if is this the right thing? And then you can never actually be happy with what you're doing? Yeah. Like, I think where do you think those expectations come from? Oh, man, I think it's, it's probably like, when you're young, and people are telling you like, you're so smart, you can do whatever you want, whatever you put your mind to, which sounds great on paper.

Yeah, because it is true. It's so true. But also, like, it really just, it doesn't give you any direction. It doesn't give you any kind of like, I don't know, there's no concrete finish line for that. That is such a tough kind of expectation to put on someone that you have the capacity to do anything in the world. And it kind of gives you this like self doubt of like, but what if I'm not doing enough? Yeah, what if I'm not doing the right thing? I picked the wrong thing. And yeah, and setting a goalpost

like that is tough, as opposed to like, encouraging someone to like, whatever you pick, you can be the best at and you can like better yourself and you can improve on something that way as opposed to like, I don't know, something so open ended and scary and like daunting. Yeah, where do you think people go wrong? Man, I think it's like letting other people define their success. Hey, good. Hey, segues. What's your definition of success? Man, this is another one that's been like, a long time. Yeah, kind of thinking about. I think it's like, whatever, like makes me feel fulfilled and happy.

So at the moment, and I think it can change like generally, like, yeah, it's gonna change. But at the moment, like me feeling successful is helping others succeed at what they want to do, which is a super weird kind of thing and super weird thing to be passionate about. Like, for us as coaches in here, that's that's what we do every day. Like, that's our goal. And I guess we're fortunate from success and achievement, a goal setting point of view to see all these different people come in. Like, first thing we talk about is goals.

So we set goals with with pretty much everyone that comes in here around training, but I try and emphasise this career around life and things like that as well. And it allows us to kind of call people out in their bullshit sometimes when they say they want to achieve something, but they don't have that, that willpower or they tell they have that self sabotage and they tell themselves they can't do it. But we see all these different goals and put the people set and you see people that are just banging their head against the wall trying to achieve a goal that you know they don't really want to achieve.

Yeah, it's something that someone's told them or someone that they look up to has said that's that's success. So they go chasing that. Yeah. But yeah, I like I like that if you're helping people then you're making them want to be like, I feel so fulfilled seeing someone else like achieve or feel confident or I don't know just feel like they're getting better at what they're doing. So like, yeah, sewing into some of the young people at common folk like just like just little things like someone has an idea and instead of like, cool, that's a good idea.

Whatever. I'll take it and do it. I'm like, no, you're empowered. You're gonna do that. Yeah. Like that's, that's something you're gonna do or like, encouraging someone like, hey, it's, it's tough. You're gonna learn it. And I'm here to help you. But yeah, I'm here. Like, I want you to be better at this. That's awesome. Like, I don't know, that kind of culture is something I really appreciate. And I've been lucky, lucky enough to be a part of and it probably helped me a lot. So yeah, passing that on. Common folks are really good at that kind of stuff.

You're probably a part of it, but at the same time, you're driving it. Yeah. Being one of the I guess, the leaders, one of the old ones, one of the old ones, you're a veteran, veteran, 25. 25 year old veteran. But you're right, like that common folk community. And you know, one of the things that I've had, obviously, Longy from Voyager on the podcast, we've had the Snakehole Boys, we've had most of the coaches from Vertices, that community of, I guess, like minded people and businesses, two streets away. We need Longy to move up here. So we don't have to drive down.

He's putting too much effort into that bloody place. He's never gonna move though. But anyway, but we've got that, that community of people that kind of help drive that success. Like, I have a shitty day here and I walk into Common Folk and you guys are laughing about and talking about how we can be better more or less. Yeah. Same thing walking in here. You can have a tough day and you walk in. Exactly. Cam will just yell at you from across the building. Something stupid, something stupid, but you're like, Cam you're the best. Yeah, exactly.

Because it just gets you up and about. Yeah. And it helps. Exactly. And I think those support networks are so important to come back to success like and everyone's, again, everyone's got their own definition of success. But those support networks allow you to, you can lean on them when you need and you can help prop them up. Totally. And I think that's the thing like a lot of people would see from the outside and probably think, oh, it's a really superficial, like kind of everyone's real friendly and like bro-y and that kind of culture. But

I think like legitimately like these couple of businesses that have kind of got together actually legitimately helping each other and like the staff and the customers that come, which are clients that come to us. Clients, family, let's use that word. But I legitimately think like have made a difference like in people's lives. Like it's not just kind of like, yeah, we're kind of cool and we're family and stuff. It's like, no legitimately like, like helping people move houses when they're struggling and stuff like that. Exactly. Just whatever you can do. Like that's the kind of stuff that you actually care about everyone and want them to be doing.

Yeah, but there's that genuine care and that genuine want to help people and help improve and like foster that community. Totally. Someone asked me the other day about like who's our competitors around here. I'm like, well, there's no competitors because if the, like for example, our industry, if the gym, personal training, strength conditioning industry in Mornington is flourishing, then that's only going to help us. Totally. And you know, I mean, we have a big, for our interns, we have a big project where they've got to design their own gym. And one of them asked how many gyms are there close to here and there's legitimately 15 gyms.

I could kick a football to probably 10 different gyms. And you can't kick that well. No, no, I could. But at the same time, like they're all in this space. And that shows me that it's incredibly healthy market for us. But too many own gym owners and business owners kind of go, they look down their nose and they go, oh, they're my competitors, so I can't be friends with them. But yeah, I think if you make that effort to build a bridge and talk to people and get to know people and you realise that everyone's

on exactly the same page and everyone else wants to help everyone else succeed, then it just creates that environment where you've got all these local businesses propping each other up and getting each other moving. And the growth is 20 times what you'd have if you're on your own. And I feel like healthy competition is always good. Oh, yeah. And like to be honest, it's very similar in coffee. So we would always say that like more specialty coffee is a good thing in an area. So like more good cafes doing good things kind of helps weed out the ones doing bad things.

Do you know what I mean? The standard goes up. Yeah, totally. Everyone gets better and like the consumers get to that stage like being savvy and understanding. Like Melbourne is a great example of that. Like for a coffee city, like if you go elsewhere, you will find nowhere near as much like opportunity and coffee around. But it's because literally the more good stuff there is like, that becomes a new standard. And everyone has to keep raising the bar to get better and I don't know, become the new top dog. Yeah. And like competition, healthy competition, like you said, yeah, just makes everyone better.

Yeah. Like if you look at all the like, from a really simple point of view, like all the sports where they've got times for world records, the world record keeps dropping year after year after year because everyone's pushing out to try and be better. Yeah. I think if you didn't have that healthy competition, then everyone just plateaus and, and stops and stops improving and so there's no innovation. There's no change. There's no like, adapting. Like, you can already talk about heaps of stuff like in, in your industry of like 10 years ago, like things that

we were doing, like we thought were good for us and all of a sudden you're like that is so bad and detrimental or just like the wrong way of thinking about something. Yeah, the wrong way of thinking, but like the basics haven't changed. And that's the kind of thing like everyone, one of my pet peeves, one of the things I really can't stand is when people think they have a secret, especially in our industry, like physiology is incredibly, incredibly, I guess, complex and diverse and it's really, really hard when you get really specific. But the basic fundamentals of stress and adaptation don't really change.

And the basic fundamentals of how to train, how to do the basics well don't change. But when people think they have a secret and think they have that magic pill or that quick fix or something like that. That's 10 kilos in two weeks. Don't start. Don't get me started. I'm going to get you started. There's like, yeah, exactly. Things like that where it's just, they're just twisting things to kind of prey on people's insecurities. And I think everyone wants a quick fix. Everyone wants something, a way to find a better way of doing something. And there are better ways.

There's better ways and worse ways. But at the same time, there's this, yeah, people just need to realize that everything worth having takes a lot of hard work and it takes blood and sweat and tears. And most of all, it takes time. Yeah. We all want these new things and we want them now. Yeah. But we've got, we've, we kind of forget bullshit, but I think we live in that age of entitlement. Totally. But I think like a big thing that I've been coming across and it's big in coffee is sustainability. And like there's so many different types of sustainability.

Is it like economic? Is it like environmental? Is it like ongoing health yourself? So like you can have a quick fix and you lose your 10 kilos, but then what happens? A month later, like what are you doing? Like you can't sustain that. It's not sustainable. You're in an eight week challenge and you might lose five, 10 kilos in that eight weeks, but where are you at week 16? Like everything. And that's definitely something I've come across. Like, um, yeah, like sustainability, like this needs to be something that I can change and it's a change forever now.

It's not like it's a lot, it's a lot. This is your lifestyle now. This is, this is me now. This is something achievable. It's not outrageous because so many times like it's, no, I'm only going to eat carrots and that's it. And then I'm going to lose all this weight. It's like, dude, you can't take carrots for the rest of your life. You've got to find out the lemon detox diet, but you've got to find that like that level between something that's outrageous and outrageous goal that you're never really going to achieve. Or at the same time, that goal that's, you've set so low that you'll just tick it off and oh shit, what's next?

You've got to find that thing that's right in the middle of slightly impossible, but at the same time, if we put a lot of time and effort into it, we'll get there. I think the goal can be impossible. I think the, the method and like the way you get to that can't be impossible because that's, yeah, it needs to be sustainable and achievable to be able to do that towards your goal. Like, yeah, yeah. Like running, running like a thousand kilometers like every day and like only eating a certain thing. What are you doing with pushups at the moment?

Oh, I'm trying to do 75 pushups every single day. Why? Well, so this is good. So it's just a stupid bet. So, um, Sammy from Commonwealth and then one of our friends, TJ, every year they do some crazy bets and the loser gets a tattoo of the other guy's decision. That's so good. So it started, we're going to do no beer for a year and the loser got, that rhymes, but it's a terrible idea. Yeah. I mean, I was fine with it, to be honest. Like I don't drink a lot of beer. I'm more of a gin guy.

Gin to fall back to. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about gin. Gin's really good. It's probably the best of all the liquors. But so, um, the boys decided they wanted to change mid mid year and we switched to doing 75 pushups every day until the end of 2018. So it worked out, I think it was just short of that. It was like 40,000 pushups from the time we started to the end of next year. So that's tough. And I've talked to you about it and it was like, cool. This, we started strong. It was like, all right, now I'm just really fatigued and like I can't actually do 75 pushups like because I'm not letting myself recover.

Yeah. So yeah, I mean I've let myself recover a bit now. I'm back to a stage where I can do more pushups, but it's like, your body doesn't work like that. Yeah, exactly. You give your body a stress and it's got to adapt to that stress before you can give it another stress. And like we talk about it in training all the time, but it's exactly the same with anything else. Like if you, if you haven't done something for a while and you go run 400 meters as fast as you can, you're going to be cooked.

There's a good chance you're going to have muscle, like you're going to be sore, you're going to be tired, you're going to feel sick. Straight after. And if you try and do that again and again and again, eventually you're going to break down and you're going to get sick or, or injured or something along those lines. But if you do what we call, like you, if you program it properly and you periodize and you go, well, what's your goal? And your goal is to run 400 as fast as you can. Cool. We work on step one first and then we go step two.

But in between each step, your body's got to allow, you've got to allow your body to adapt and change and get better because training, training doesn't make us better. Training makes us worse. The recovery in the middle is when our body goes, I don't want to feel like that again, or I don't want that to happen again. That's good. And we adapt and we start to improve whatever area it is that we need to. Now, I can't remember who I think it might have been Doreen Yates on a Joe Rogan podcast. He used the analogy of sandpaper on your hand.

If you rub sandpaper on your hand and take the top layer of skin off and then leave it, it'll grow back and will grow back a little bit stronger. That's training. Every training you want it to grow back a little bit stronger. But if you grab your sandpaper on your hand and rub the top layer of skin off and then later on that day or the next day you try and do it again, you're going to keep, keep rubbing layers of skin off and eventually it's going to start bleeding. That's what training is. And that's what any change is.

If you go hell for leather at the start, it's not going to be sustainable and it's not going to be something you can keep doing. And I think that's exactly the same with everything in life. Like if you try and work 12 hour days straight away when you're not used to it, your body's just, you know, what the fuck just happened? And you're going to be cooked. Yeah. But if you kind of start building on that and you might do a couple of like longer days and then you give yourself a day off and then

you have a longer days and you give yourself a day off, you're going to get used to that, that work ethic and that ability to keep showing up and doing the work. Yeah. And yeah, I think we, we all go for that, that intense diet fix or food fix. We want that patience. I think sometimes like it's not so much an unachievable goal. It's just like our timeline's unachievable. We want it to happen now. We're not willing to wait a year for that goal to happen. It's like, nah, I need it to happen in three months.

Like I need to be there like now. Whereas like if you wait and slow and take your time and do it properly, like you'll actually, you build that foundation. Totally. It's like building pyramids. You need to have that big wide base at the start to add the next base to add the next base. If you try and build a pyramid with a little base at the bottom, it's eventually going to be a tiny pyramid as well. It's going to be a shit house pyramid. Pyramids are going to suck man. Egyptians will hate you. Yeah, exactly.

But like my favorite, one of my favorite quotes is, and I've probably said it on the podcast once a week, but if you, the best way to climb a mountain is one step at a time. Yeah. So if you want to achieve something, if you want to lose 50 kilos, yeah. Kilo one's got to come up first, then kilo two, then kilo three. Yeah, you can't lose 49 bang and then go, oh shit, I better work hard for the last one. And yeah. And I think being able to experience what it's like to try something that's unsustainable and go, well, this isn't what I want to be doing.

Yeah. Which you've done. You've tried paleo, right? Oh yeah. How'd that go? Good. So one of my good friends, Danny, shout out to Danny, uh, he's not paleo anymore. Like we had, it was a bit of a craze. Like you probably remember the craze happening. Yep. But, um, yeah, he, he was paleo and encouraged me to do it. And I was like, no, I'm really interested by this. Like, I feel like it'd be good. I understand, um, the idea behind it, the intention behind it. And it does make sense in that respect. Um, it was the healthiest I've ever felt.

Like I feel like, uh, if I could do it, I would do it again. But it's just not sustainable. Like, could you do it and do it slightly differently and make it sustainable? Yeah. So even like the creator of paleo was talking about 80, 20. So like, um, if you, if you're mostly doing paleo, it's going to be beneficial. But then, um, yeah, just trying to find that sustainability. So I was going really good. It was about nine months and I was just like, I was late. It was good. It was like a good sample size.

Like, um, yeah, I was lean. I was feeling good. Like I wasn't even working out hard. I was just like eating better and fueling my body differently. So basically the idea is you're running your body off only fats. Like, yeah. So you come to it into a state of ketosis. Totally. Yeah. So like you're eating twice a day max, like you're just long, slow sustained energy. And it's like, it is good food. Like you're eating like Christmas lunch is essentially how I'll describe it. It's like potatoes or you can have sweet potatoes. Yeah. Um, so things like that.

And it depends on that. What kind of hardcore version did, if you're doing whole 30 or if you're doing like a more relaxed style, like, but basically the idea was like you're pretty, you're putting in only pure kind of fuels that you're running like a high performance car. Like I can only take this kind of fuel. And if you do that, it'll run really well. But as soon as you put crap in it, it just like clogged you up and you feel like gross. Um, also that high performance fuel is actually needs preparing and it takes time, a lot of effort and it's pretty hard to be social and paleo.

So like you were going out and you're like, can't any of this cool. I'll just hang out and I ate before I came. So it would be that guy that's just hanging out. Like, and that's what it was. And like, I like food, food's quite good. Um, so it kind of stopped. I went to America with a friend for a snowboarding trip. We've got an RV and then cruised around the States for like six weeks and just snowboarded like 10 different mountains. Awesome. And we went to like, cool, we're going to get in and out and we're going to get like burgers and we're going to eat stuff.

And I was like, well, I'll be pretty good, but I'll just have a bit of stuff. And I was like, man, I've missed out on this kind of stuff. Fell through big time. And that's what it was. It was like coming back and like, nah. And I did, I fell off big time. Like I put, put back on all the weight and probably more. But it was like the sustainability of like, you couldn't enjoy paleo. It became all consuming and you were this, you're a paleo person. Like you were that kind of like you couldn't, that defined everything you did was like through that prism of paleo.

How did, how did that affect like social, social life and, and so it wasn't too bad, but you just felt like the stigma. Do you know what I mean? And it was also like at home, I was in London palace and mum and dad weren't, my brothers weren't, so you had to do everything. It was very, it was very much a chore. I'm like, your whole day was like spent like, cool, I'm having breakfast. I mean, there's everything centered around hanging and get like, get to the next level. And I can imagine like a lot of diets and a lot of like, even like, um, sports would be like that.

So like power lifters, weight lifters, bodybuilders, those kinds of people would be like the whole day is like planned around meals. You need that routine. Yeah. And it's full on. I was like, it's just, if you could do it good on you and I feel like it's healthy, but then also like there's so many other things you're missing out on and I don't know, it just, it wasn't a priority of my life. Yeah, that's fair. Like, do you know what I mean? It's cool. But for me, I was like, that's just taking away too much time and energy that needs to be.

If you want to do anything to an extreme, you need to, there needs to be sacrifices. Exactly. And I think that goes for anything that you want to achieve. If you find out what needs to be done and you do it to a T, then you're going to be successful in doing it. It's this, it's that whole balancing. If you, if you want balance, everything's got to give a little bit. Yeah, exactly. So you've got to figure it out why you want it and what you want. Yeah. And I think setting, setting those goals. So

if your goal is to lose a lot of weight and test it out and see how, how it went and you probably tick that box. Yeah. But if your goal is to be the same way in the middle of that, as you were three years down the track, then maybe, maybe you didn't take that box because you're, because it's not something that's sustainable. Yeah. Um, that's, you know, it's, I just don't think long-term it was ever going to be the solution for me being healthier. It's probably, what did it teach you about diets and eating? Oh, just taught me like how to think or definitely like the stigma of like fats.

And I think that's definitely changing now. Yeah, we're getting there. Yeah, definitely like for so long. It's not releasing stupid fucking documentaries. That'd be great. Oh man. Like everything's like cool, fat, free. It's like sick, but it's got a million shivers in it. Like that's what I'm going to help you. Like just those kinds of things learning about like, why would you buy something in a packet when you can buy something fresh, like stuff like that. Like that's a simple rule. And that's like, if you can basically the paleo rules, like if you go around the outside of the shopping center and don't go into the inside, it's a really, really like, it's just a small rule.

Like even if you're not paleo, like think about shopping like that. It's a good way to think about it. Well, just for, and like my job as a strength conditioning coach isn't to tell people what to eat, but we have those conversations around fueling your body and putting things, putting the right things in. And you know, when it comes to the actual dietary advice, Maddie's the go-to in this place, but it allows you, I think doing something like that allows you to identify far out, I was putting a lot of processed crap into my body and you actually totally allows you to be aware of what you're doing.

And I don't believe in, I believe in extremes if you want to do something extreme, you need to do extreme things, but for just living life and just being happy and sociable and someone who's not a cock bag to be around, you need to find those things that you actually enjoy doing. And if you enjoy going around the outside of a shopping center and eating the right things, then you're going to be more likely to do it. If you enjoy eating to fuel your body so you can train, but also going to have a burger every now and again, a couple of years, exactly, exactly.

You don't want to miss out on all those things. So I think it's one of those things that it just, you need to find, find the, I don't like the term balance. It's tough. You need to find the balance. It's almost like you've got to find your, it's your balance. Yeah. Yeah. It's your answer. That's good. What's my answer to living a healthier life. It's not this crazy hectic, 100% paleo, but it's like, that's totally some good stuff. You're going to steal a little bits and pieces of that. Totally. Yeah. And just the way you think about fats fueling your body.

Like it's such a good thing to think about. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But when, when we understand a little bit better, when we know better, we do, we tend to do better because we, you know, you make that little different decision as when, what, what we're going to have for dinner or, um, we did have burgers last night. No burgers. Burgers are amazing. But 80/20, we were like, yeah, you look at, if you're 80% ticking the boxes, you can look after yourself and enjoy that social aspect of food that comes with it. Yeah. Talk about, back to coffee for a little bit before we talk about travel and stuff.

What do you love about the industry? I do love the, uh, the quality aspect of coffee and the community aspect of coffee. So for me, like when I was full time roasting, so it's a bit different to my role now, but like the reason I really love coffee was being able to take a roast. So first rest of the day, let's say you've roasted it, you've taken away, you've, you've brewed it up and you're now tasting it and you're evaluating and you're like, okay, what's the process? What's bad about it? Let's make a change. And

then making that change like that process for me is just like, I try to carry that through and everything I do now, like I learned that there and just like, it's kind of, that's where my quote came from. Like nothing can't be improved. Um, yeah, it's like a double negative. And when I first, I kind of like said it, it's like, wait, what am I saying? Like, but if you, if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. Like nothing in life can't get better. It's basically what I was trying to say. Like there's always like a little bit that could be better except for my photos.

Thanks. But yeah, like just the idea of, so coffee is such a tough one to do. So it's a natural product that's always changing and aging. All the beans you can imagine. And the taste is subjective too. That'd be the hardest thing. Taste is subjective. So like all the beans are different size as well. So you're trying to roast that. Think about like when you, when you're doing chips in the oven or something and you've cut up, like you've got French fry size, you've got like wedge size. So many different sizes. And you're trying to roast that.

The beans are the same. Yeah, you're trying to roast that the same. Beans are the same, all different sizes and shapes, different densities. And you're trying to like, how can I consistently make that taste good? Like, so you're juggling all that stuff all the time. Like different weather, like a cool day is going to make the coffee roast different because like the air is a different density. So heat differently, all those kinds of things. Like there's a million variables that you don't even think about. Keep going because this stuff fascinates me. Caleb gave me the shits because he stopped talking about it.

He wouldn't keep going. So you can get coffee from a certain farm and roast it on different days and it tastes different. Completely different. So if it's like a really cool day, the air's going to be denser. And it's going to be like, so it's like a car. A car really likes running on cool days because it can chomp down the air because it's nice and thick and juicy. As soon as it's thin, it struggles. So that's definitely one. So coffee can, so the same coffee could taste differently on different days, but it also will taste different depending on where you drink it.

Yeah, where it was roasted as well. And also like so, and then things like when you, so this is just roasting. Like then you get to stages of like, okay, so the difference between a coffee that was roasted two days ago or like two weeks ago. Yeah. Completely different. So it's de-gassed. There's CO2s being released from coffee all the time once it's been roasted. So that's changing. Then you've got, okay, let's brew a coffee at 96 degrees and one at 92 degrees. Tastes completely different. Let's, let's put 24 grams in for both of these, but one of them I'm going to get 40 grams out.

I'm going to get 60 grams out of the other one in the same time. Completely different. Does it drive you crazy that there's so many variables? Or do you love it so crazy, but also you're like, I love it. And basically different things you can do as like a coffee professional, your job is like, you're in a boat and you're trying to plug as many holes as you can. And like, how can I stop all this crazy stuff happening and get a consistent product? It is really tough. Like coffee people are really jealous of like

beer, uh, like breweries and wine makers and that kind of stuff because they can finish product, put it in a can or a bottle or something and send it out. Ours is like, cool, we've done every can, put it in a bag and then we're giving it to some chump and they could stuff it up and then it looks bad on us. It's really, really tough. So you love and hate it. It's, it's, it's a constant battle, but it's also why we love it. I think like, because there's so much, such a challenge because there's so many variables.

There's so many ways you can improve it, but it's also so many ways it could go wrong. Yeah. Um, yeah. For all the coffee drinkers out there that get annoyed when their coffee doesn't taste the same. What do you have for them? Just be understanding that it's tough, but also it's kind of unacceptable. Like you should have a consistent product. Like the idea is like, if someone really cares about coffee, like they can do all these kinds of things to help and they can work it out, put those things in place. So it does. That's where you kind of get those specialty coffee roasters that are really make a difference because they're able to take those boxes.

They're buying good coffee. They're putting in procedures to make sure the coffee's roasted as consistently as possible. So it doesn't change. Then they've got good baristas, like doing everything they can to make sure it's tasting the best that it can. Um, but yeah, having said that, there's so many different cogs that needs to be taken. Stuff goes wrong. And it's, and it's also like, a lot of it would be like the final point would be the baristas. Like if they, if they don't give a crap, they could have everyone else in the chain could do such a good job and it gets to them and that's like, don't give a crap.

That's when you can get coffee. Totally. Having said that also, you could have like a shit product that gets to them and a barista that really cares and they'll get as much out of it as they can, but it still just has no potential left. So like whatever part of the chain I'm in at each time, it's like my job is to facilitate and leave as much potential in there for the next person to take on. So like what window of opportunity am I leaving for like the next person in the chain is a really cool way to think about it.

That's awesome. That's really cool. Yeah. Coffee's fun. Yeah, it's full on. What's your favorite type of coffee? Oh man, I just, I like coffee. Like I don't, doesn't matter. I could go days out drinking coffee. Like I don't need it, but like I enjoy all types of coffee. Definitely not the ones from a barley that have gone through a cat. Yeah. What's it called again? Coffee luac. Coffee luac. That's right. You can have that. That's good. Good chocolate. The coffee luac chocolate. Coffee chocolate. I liked it. I liked it. You can keep it. But yeah, like I prefer to prefer black coffee.

Espresso or a long black. Like that's probably my go to, but otherwise batch brew, which I'm currently drinking now. Nice. Thanks. Mine's empty. It's gone. Yes. One of your many lattes. Yeah. It's kind of, that's a lot of fun. It's fun, but I think you'll back me up on this. Like some of the ones you've had have been questionable flavors. Like thanks trees. Thanks Tristan. Caleb's getting to that zone. He's trying to give you stuff in like a rubber glove. Yeah. The rubber gloves for that. Yeah. That's just going to keep it. Let me see how long it lasts.

So for anyone who doesn't know, like every time Loki comes in, it started once he came in and he just said, I asked him, he wanted the coffee. He's like, surprise me. Like cool. All right. So I just made him like a super, super strong coffee and a massive like 400 mil mug and it was great. That was really good. But it also kept his butt. And I was like talking a million miles an hour. And that's where it started. So then next time he came in and just kept getting worse. Like some of the goods we had like a massive cookie jar.

That was fun. That was delicious. Also delicious. That's a thing. So like my goal is like, it has to also taste good. Look weird tasting. Upside down coffee. Upside down coffee was good. 2D latte on a plate. Yeah. Solid. It was pretty good. There's been some questionable ones. Caleb made me one out of the coffee scoop the other day. Yeah. But it spills everywhere because it's like got two holes in it. Yeah, I do spill it. The coffee bag was fun. Yeah. That was fun to drink. Yeah. That looked cool. The ladle. I had a latte out of a soup ladle with latte art.

And I had to hold it. I couldn't put it down because the ladle was round so it wouldn't sit. So that yeah, but like and I guess that fun and that enjoyment makes makes me more like keen to jump over to Common Folk. Like we got coffee here. Yeah. And it's your coffee. Yeah. And we got a machine that's very consistent. So it tastes good all the time. But it's like it's it's different vibe. Like we're coming into common folk and I think that's what's so why it's so special. Yeah, I think that's the attitude we find the balance of like, let's have lots of fun but also like we really care about making sure it tastes good as well.

Like that's, it's both. Yeah. We know when you need to put your serious pants on because you need to tick all the boxes around the roasting process. But at the same time, you know, fun. What's the point? Exactly. And like putting your things in place so you can have fun. So like getting good equipment that will be consistent. Yeah. Like getting good baristas and know what they're doing. It's so fun. Yeah. Well, the people's the best part. It was the best part. I'd argue like we could have crap coffee. And as long as we've got really good people like you can have a successful cafe and fairy lights.

Fair. That's also a good and good music. You need to have a good music. Yeah, good DJs hooked on a feeling put put it on. He's killed it. I'll change it. I'm different song. All right. What are we on? I'm on Moby Moby. Listen to Moby for like four days. I tend to I tend to get to get a little bit obsessed with one song or album. Yeah. It is a murderer. Yeah. And trust. Yeah, I kill it. I kill it. But then when it comes back, it'll come back around like three months. My example is when I'm got here's somebody that I used to know.

Oh, and just like everyone murdered that. So yeah, because it hit all the commercial radio stations as well. It was just like, and I got so sick of that. So my please don't kill it and like, shout out to Roshana, but she's a killer. She's killed. She's killed before and she'll kill again. Like she's brutal. Shakira. Yeah. Oh, man. Shakira. She looks like Shakira. She's basically a younger Shakira. Yeah. But she she's got good tasting music. Like not even a lie has good taste, but we'll just murder the same 20 songs. I'm okay with that. I'm okay.

No, I'm okay. Because then you get to a point where you go, you know, I went to put hooked on a feeling on the other day. Yeah, just to annoy camp. Yeah. And I sat there and went, I'm done. Yeah, I'm done with that song. Wow. For now. Yeah. And I hated myself for that moment. And then I found something else. And now I've moved on with my life. It's true. So you know, yeah, I just feel like I get to before that stage. You can't have too much of a good thing. Yeah. And I feel like you've got a better tolerance than others.

Sometimes like you're fine with it, but everyone else is done with it. Which is even better. Roshana trying to kill everything. She's just started playing like one of my favourite songs ever. She's like hooked on it. I'm like, like pulled her aside. I'm like, legitimately, like, I've been joking before about you killing so much. But this is my favourite. Don't ruin it for me. I don't know. I will not be responsible for what I do. Like, just don't do it. Be warned. Like, what is your favourite song of all time? It is little dragon my step.

Weird one. Not many people know it. But I don't know why I like it. I've just always liked it. That was one of my last questions. Yeah. We skipped around. That's good. What do you what do you hate about the coffee industry? And Oh, the wankers. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I'd like to think I'm not a wanker. But having said that, I'm pretty snobby. Like, I won't drink bad coffee. Reese Reese said yesterday, back when we use back when we weren't coffee snobs, we used to get it from the bakery. And I'm like, are we coffee snobs?

Yeah, I think we're coffee snobs. Yeah. Well, I just liking a good thing. Does that make you a snob? I don't think so. But I feel like the wider society would say yes. So I don't self identify as a snob. But I feel like most people would identify me as a snob. Okay. Oh, I think I've got a way to figure it out. Would you drink a 711 or Mac coffee? No. So there you go. I would rather go without. Yes, easily. So I think maybe that is going to help. Yeah. Why is that a bad thing?

No way. Quality. Yeah. All right. Back before common folk were open early enough. We used to and we did we had a coffee machine. So we were like, without coffee, and you start at 6am in the morning, middle of winter, you need something. So I used to drive in for PSL. I used to have a thought on the way I like. Yeah, maybe this will be the day when a Mac is coffee will be good. I've never once and like, like this probably makes me stop. I don't care. But I've never once driven into Mac is driven out of Mac is drink coffee and thought that was a good idea.

I've always regretted that's McDonald's in general. Like, good idea at the time. Nuggs. You finished it. And you've even finished you know, it's like that. Okay, there's a there's a way around it. The wraps. Okay. With two chicken breasts. Yeah. grilled. And it's a it's a decent fee. If you can't find anything. Only if you can't when I was paying I used to go and like, I can always get to see chicken patties. Just thinking they're like, you're a weirdo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's true. It's like, baby. It's like a baby butter and chicken. See it like it's delicious, but also way too expensive.

Yeah, true. But yeah, Mac is is usually like a great idea. And then about two minutes after you finish eating, you're like, why did I do that? Yeah, that's fair. That's the same with every everything every like, as soon as you go for mouth pleasure over. Yeah, long term pleasure up in your head. You're like, Oh, no, it's gonna be like on the ad. The lettuce is gonna be bouncy. And like, it's gonna be so tasty. It's gonna bring all that family community together. Yeah. And there'll be the most magical meal we've ever eaten. Yeah, but it's never like are you sponsored by McDonald's?

Yeah, we are actually. And we're loving it. Good one. Yeah. Shit. I'm like, loosely sponsored by common folk, I think. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Let's do that. Except I'm not gonna eat food there for the next month. You're not gonna eat food. I spent too much money. Yeah, spending too much money. So So what I'm gonna do is just drink coffee. Yeah, there. And probably drink juice because I like juice juice, but no food. Like I've set myself a rule. I like it. And also, it hit me while we're on it. What do you think as a as a professional in the fitness and health sector?

What do you think about our current menu? Could be better. It could be it could be healthier. I feel like because we have a lot of people like you because we're such a local establishment. We have 37 gyms within 20, 20 minutes. Our demographic is a lot of like fitness people, a lot of like moms, and then on weekends, it's when it diversifies. But otherwise, it's a lot of people coming in like four times a week, like on average, I think you need to have the side options a bit better. Yeah, from a from a consumer's point of view.

Yeah. Well, so you don't want to have to eat. Oh, yeah. I've been there every day for the last two weeks. That's what that's what's caused me to go. Yeah. And I'm big on doing what I said I would do. So like one of my kind of personal rules, and I've been pretty good lately, but you break it every now and again, but it's just having integrity and doing the things you said you were gonna do. So this is this is gonna hold me accountable to me. Yes, not eating. And by the time I release this, it'll be like three weeks cuz I got a backed up a couple three, four weeks.

Yeah. I should have had not eaten one meal at common. So what's the date today? It's the 26th of August. I started on the 24th. I had my 25th yesterday because I've got the last two meals. So if anyone's seen his walkie eat before the 25th of September, at common food, a piece of food, they can slap it out of his hand. Yeah, you're allowed to. Yeah, that's the rules. It's like run up and just slap it out of his hand. But from a menu point of view, you just got to have, you got to have just a variety of nutritious foods.

Yeah. But chips as a side, no, like no good. Yeah. There needs to be something more. There needs to be something substantial like, I don't know. But it's tough. The food's great. And it's delicious. I just don't think you should just go hang out with the guys at Flock. Yeah. Flock's got some good food. I'm not even joking. It's amazing. They kill it. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be really good to get you and Matty to like kind of consult on the next menu. Oh, yeah. That'd be a lot of fun. Oh, yeah. Let's name each meal. Yeah.

What happened to the Wallace? We were going to have that, weren't we? It's just going to be like a meal. A meal called the Wallace. Talk me through it. Oh, it had avocado. It had avocado, pulled pork, eggs, honey eggs, two eggs on top of the sourdough with sour cream and jalapenos. Oh, hey, bring it back. Yeah. Bring it in. Bring it ever. I just kind of want to call it the Virtus just to keep the marketing up. I like that. Let's do that. I was even thinking like, I'm gonna put this out there so then I have to be accountable as well.

I think it'd be good to have like Virtus endorsed items. Yeah, that's cool. We'll put a little V next to it. Yeah, a little V next to it. A little logo of like, cool. This is like something that's good for you. It might not be healthy, but it's good for you. Yeah. But then we look at food and anything that makes you happy and helps you in moderation. Everything's good for you in moderation. And everything's bad for you if you don't look in moderation. Like you can overdose on water. Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do that.

What he's trying, this is like the sixth bottle of water in this podcast. I need to drink water while I talk. But if you, yeah, so it's a toughie because there's no good or bad foods. No. It's just how much you put in your body. Yeah. We can have a Virtus menu item. But we could definitely do a preferred, Virtus preferred. Yeah. But if you're in a social setting and you're eating a burger, who cares? But it's just a matter of that balance and making sure that you find ways to make sure that you don't, that doesn't become the norm.

Yeah. And that's where people go wrong, I think. They either go all the way one side and don't treat themselves. And I used to treat yourself then because I love, what was it? Is this a community? No. Parks and Rec. Parks and Rec. Yeah. Well, we're on this. Best burger in Melbourne. Best burger in Melbourne. Oh mate. I used to. Here we go. So play footy in the city and one of our best mates used to live in Melbourne. He lives in Sydney now, which was really selfish of him to move away. But yeah, jerk.

We used to, one of the things we used to do was we'd go watch a movie and go have a burger for like, I think we did it for a whole footy season, like once a week, maybe once every two weeks. So we used to, we had a, we rated every movie and we rated every burger. Wow. So the best burger in Melbourne is the Denise burger from Huxter Burger. Okay. So it's just loaded up with jalapenos. But I've got a little bit of bias because if you put jalapenos on something, I'm probably going to love it.

Second best burger is the Merriwell burger. Yeah. It's just amazing. The third best burger doesn't exist anymore. Oh, it's Tree of Us on Church Street in Richmond. So it's just, yeah, three guys that started a burger joint that is now closed down. Well, I think it's turned into something else, but that was an amazing burger while I was around. Fourth best burger, probably Yomagod. Yomagod with cheese. Just real simple. Just straight up. Fifth best burger is, I think it's called Baboo Bar Burger. Yeah. On a Chapel Street, but you can make your own. So yeah, that's kind of, you could turn that into the best burger ever.

But I've got a theory about burgers and we're getting way off topic, but I don't care. That's the whole point of a burger. I've got a theory about burgers. So to have a good burger, you shouldn't notice the bun. Totally. When you notice the bun and there's like, there's quantity of bun and you're just like, there's too much bun. The bun should sink into the burger. So when you're like, that's something that... Flavour-wise and texture-wise. Yeah, exactly. That's something that has to do really well. And I don't care how much sugar is in a bun, because if you're having a burger, you want to treat yourself.

But that's what they do so, so well and very well as well is you eat the burger and you don't notice the bun. Yeah. It's just a burger. It's one in itself. Yeah. But yeah, that's where everyone bangs on about fat bulbs. That's where they lose wings. Fat bulbs is okay. Because the bun's no good. Yeah. But anyway, I'm very passionate about buns and burgers and stuff. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. What are your thoughts on, have you had Brother Bubba? No. No. What am I talking about? It's good. Brother Burger. No. No. Up on like, I think it's Brunswick Street?

No. Brother Burger, really good. Oh, this one. Spotted Mellow had an amazing burger too. I don't know. I can't remember what the burger was called. Maybe we should go and get a burger one day. We should do a burger run. Yeah. Just go have like six burgers. We should do like 10 minute burger podcasts. Just like mini podcasts. Tommy and Lucky have burgers. Yeah. Let me tell you. Yeah. It'll ask for your video. A video podcast. Yeah, done. We can do this. When I get back from America after having so many burgers. Exactly. Yeah. I'll tell you where the best ribs are in Melbourne.

Okay. Yeah. Ike's Rack Shack at the Beaufort in Carlton. It's amazing. Good. It's amazing. They also, yeah. Cornbread. But anyway, we can talk forever about food. Ooh, yeah. Why do you like taking pretty pictures? Why do you like taking photos? It kind of just started, I don't even know, man. Like, I think I've always had like a visual kind of eye for stuff to like design. I was always like growing up drawing, illustrating, and then started doing more graphic design kind of stuff in high school and wanted to do that as a profession. And then file photography at uni, which is great.

That's the best. I love that. There's, if you need a, I guess, an actual example of someone who is amazing at what they're doing. I love your photos. And obviously you've started taking a fair few photos here. So I have to say that. But if you want an example of someone who failed photography, yeah, you're an amazing photographer. It's one of those ones like, and like, I didn't know I wanted to do photography then. And it was kind of like, you took photos, like you thought you want to take photos. Like, oh, let's get some close up to like a log or some flowers.

You're like, why is this photography? Yeah. Photography is like capturing a moment and a place or a person or a thing. Like that's what it is. It's capturing something. It's not just like, photography is doing this. So I don't know. I've got a camera that Danny sold to me. Danny again, another shout out. Boy's getting a lot of shout outs. Yeah. So he's an amazing photographer. He's a massive like photography mentor of mine. Also, he's, he was like named one of the best five wedding photographers in Melbourne recently. He's incredible. Danny dot Miller on Instagram can get around it.

He's the only person he only posts wedding stuff. Let's be honest. Boring, which is pretty boring. But his story is usually pretty good. Okay. But yeah, amazing photographer taught me a lot. So I bought his old camera when he was updating. Didn't really know what I was doing with it. Just had an interest point shoot and just kind of like just learn by doing really like yeah, cool. No formal training other than just like hanging out with some, some fun friends like Oh, yeah, that's the best way to learn that totally. You learn with experience. Yeah.

And you make mistakes and you slowly learn and like, you just like get some information from friends like, hey, shot this, how would you edit this? What would you do in the future? And like, you learn by stuffing up yourself like you shoot something a certain way. So you're like really underexposed something or you had some some kind of settings and you're running with and then you're trying to edit later and you're like, why did I do this? This is really hard. And then you slowly adapt and you figure out how to make your life easier.

And yeah, slowly, slowly get better. It's like anything. Just mastering your craft. Yeah, sharpening the sword. That's one of those ones. And then sharpening the sword. Just Yeah, knowing what you're good at or good at and slowly making it better. Totally. And then so it kind of started just with traveling a lot. And I just liked taking photos while traveling, capturing what you're doing. Yeah, interesting. Interesting people. Yeah, capturing that kind of time. Um, but yeah, and then it just became a really good way like, don't listen to this tax, man, but a really way to like, ride off the trip.

Yeah, as I say, like, I've had two exhibitions so far from two of my bigger trips. The first one was like, my first kind of solo trip was to New York, went to New York for like a week and a half and then went to see Caleb and Tash down in DC area for Thanksgiving and then back to New York for a week. It was cool. So that was my first trip, did like a New York show. That was awesome. And then the next one I did with Danny, we did a combined show. That last one was Iceland and America.

It was amazing. It was super cool. Not the worst two parts of the world to take photos of. Pretty good. Like Iceland is ridiculous. Like, super incredible. But yeah, just the way to be like, cool, I'm going to travel and then I'm going to come back and have an exhibition. Show my work. Hopefully people like it. And I can kind of make some money back on the trip or whatever. If I can kind of get back and have traveled and then be like neutral money. That's a win dream. Yeah, yeah, totally. And like, people seem to like it.

And I've kind of picked up a few little jobs here and there doing more more photography. I just think I just like capturing a moment without being staged if possible. Yeah, that's the big thing to me. Like as candid as possible. And that's the best photos because you can see the authenticity. Yeah. In the photo. That's it. And you're trying to like, cool, how can I capture this and like, I don't know, make it look how I see it. Yeah, like, because you know what it's like, you can take a photo like that kind of looks okay.

But yeah, I know what I know in my head. Yeah, totally. And being able to translate that and make it look as amazing as it is. And when you actually do get those photos, and you look at it, you're like, yeah, that's it. And you know, like, you know, when you take good photos of you like doing pharmacy, and you're just like looking at your shoulders and your veins, everybody's like, pups, I'm actually a rig. It's nice to get and all photography in the gym is just lighting and good angles and stuff. And that was that hit my good angle.

I hit my good side. I'll share it to everyone because I'm pretty happy with the photo. I've always got some shoulders. Yeah, we don't know this yet. But remember how I asked you about what camera I should get? Yeah, well, it's on the way. But I'm going under your wing. You're gonna teach me how to take rad photos. It is. Be my photography mentor because when we went to New Zealand, early in the year, I just kind of dabbled and like, I took Mum's SLR and yeah, just winged it, didn't edit anything, just took cool

photos and totally of that trip and like, kind of look back now at them and I very average photos, but when we were there, it was about capturing a memory. Yeah, exactly. And I'll look through that and I'll have the whole trip. Yeah. I'll take crap as photos on my phone just for the memory set. Yeah. Like, it's such a valuable thing. The best thing I did was buy a 256 gigabyte iPhone. Yeah, I've got like 9000 photos that have all been taken since Feb. Yeah. So I can look back and see like 1000 different. It's great.

Different moments. Yeah. But like, I had started having a play with the, the setting where you do a little bit of time to get like, no, you get like cool waterfalls and shit. Oh, like, like slow shutter speeds. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I literally googled it like the day we were there. Yeah. Of how to take slow shutter speeds looking at waterfalls. Yeah. And I managed to get some really, really cool photos. Most of which, there's a couple of glutes in it. But mate, I feel like you should do an exhibition of you just like, just include.

I don't know how KP feels about that. What, she likes to keep those for herself. Yeah. Yeah. I might put some up in the wall in our room or something. Yeah. Just yeah. Put that somewhere. Just for KP. But just like, this is just me winning it. Mate, that's good. I know. Yeah. I like it. I took like maybe 10 good photos out of like 1000. It looks like it should be a motivational poster about persistence. Exactly. Exactly. By Lachlan Wallace. Water doesn't cut through rock because of its power, it cuts through its persistence. Can we please put that up?

A lot. I'm going to say it here, my dream is to have an exhibition at the Nook at some point in the next five years. Boom. It's on a podcast now. It's going to happen. It's the best. Just take cool photos. But maybe, maybe we'll be able to, we've got eight months until South America. Yeah. Oh mate, heaps time. Why do you love to travel? Oh, why wouldn't you love to travel? Yeah. I don't know. That's a good answer. For me, it's just, there's so much of the world to experience. I think I just didn't know a lot about myself.

Like after, after high school, pretty sheltered high school, went to a Christian high school and was kind of like, Oh, I'm not a Christian. I kind of learned a lot of stuff and just wasn't, wasn't that. And then went to uni, kind of like met lots of different people and then was like, Whoa, I'm missing something. And that was missing God. So stuff like that, just didn't know much about myself as on a massive journey with that stuff. And then just like travel is such a good way to kind of just shake you up and look at how insignificant you are.

Totally. And just like, even if you are traveling, like I've traveled a little bit to like, um, like Asia and stuff where it's, it's not all Western. It's pretty mind blowing, isn't it? Totally. Even like just seeing how different the West is and just like meeting different people and just like learning to be humble and just realizing how different everyone can be and still get along and stuff like that is just massive. Um, but yeah, and there's so much of the world to see. And like, I'm a very visual person. So seeing like that kind

of seeing nature, seeing like places like New York, which I'd analyzed for so long, doing things like going over to America to snowboard, stuff like that was massive. And something that I've been wanting to do it like through high school was like, I'm going to go to America and Canada and snowboard because that's what I want to do. And I did it and I was like, wow, I actually just like traveling. Like the snowboarding was awesome, but just going to different places. So this trip, I'm about to leave on in a couple of weeks. Well, I will be away when this releases.

That just hurts my head. What? Where are you going? How long are you going for? This would be like my sixth trip to America in like five years. What the heck? Hawaii counts. Hawaii counts. Well, I've been in the US twice in the last five years. There you go. But I haven't been to mainland US yet. Yeah. Um, so this one is for Danny again. Third shout out for Danny. This guy is popular. Um, he's, he's getting married. Hey, um, congratulations. This would be getting married on the 15th. So this might even be a battle in this dress.

I'll try and do it on the same day. That'd be the best. Congratulations, Danny podcast. Yeah, for sure. Um, so getting married in Canada and then Heath, who everyone probably know from common folk, the great man who's coming with me, good DJing at the wedding, which would be horrendous for a lot of fun. Um, and then we're traveling around America, uh, for a bit and then yeah, for a while and super cool. Awesome. Sweet. Awesome. Yeah. So this time we're doing the South. I've done a lot of other parts of America. So we're doing Texas, new Orleans, New Orleans, man.

Just like the food barbecue. It's on the, it's on the list. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. Music. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Awesome. So it'd be good. And then yeah, then back into reality, back into reality, back into loving what you do. It's the worst thing. I don't know. I don't have to come back to a job that I love. Yeah. But like both sides make you appreciate either one. You're away. You appreciate home that little bit more big time. And when you're here, you appreciate that travel a little bit more. Big time. There's something magical for me about getting out of your bubble.

Totally. And getting out of that echo chamber that you're so used to and the same people and places and things like that. Yeah. I think travel shakes that up for sure. For sure. Like the idea of, I don't know, like I do love what I do, but like the getting up every day and doing stuff, doing stuff, doing stuff to flip that. And then all of a sudden be like, cool. I don't have to do anything today. Yeah. And I'm like free to just chase what you want. You're like, Oh, this is amazing. Like, so Danny and I have traveled a bit together and just like fourth shout out dudes.

But we just drive for like days. So we get up, we drive. Danny usually get up late cause he's just late always. Yeah. But yeah, we just drive and it'd be like four or five in the afternoon, but like probably should figure out where we're staying tonight. And so I jumped on like booking.com on my phone. Like where are we booking? Where do you reckon we'll make it to? Let's hard way a couple of times, like make sure you go for 24 hour booking. That's a bit of advice. So if you can do 24 hour check-ins that's the dream.

No matter how late you arrive, you can still sleep. Like that's the goal. Like we've had some hectic, we came. So this time we were in San Diego and I'd booked tickets to go to the playoffs in LA at Stable Center to see Houston and the Clippers play. Um, this was the game that Austin rivers went off. If anyone out there remembers that it's a couple of years ago, but basically, so we bought tickets, um, drove back heaps, got there for the game after the game left, drove hours into like the middle towards Nevada to the death Valley, slept there, woke up in the morning.

And I'm going to just like rip a photo of that Danny brushing his teeth in the middle of death Valley. But just like, just drove way too much. That's the best thing about travel. Cause you don't like, there's no like of your days here, you've got your star line, you got your finish line, you've got everything in the middle. You know, more or less what's going to happen. Yeah. Travel. You don't have that. Yeah. I'm not going back to my bed tonight. Totally. I'm going to be somewhere else. Yeah. And just America is such a good city for road trips like that.

Like country. Oh, it's unbelievable. And America, it's a really good city. No, definitely a country. Yeah. I should know that. Uh, a great country for it because you can just, there's so much diversity. Like everyone's actually really lovely. Like I never felt unsafe. Everyone was really kind. Everyone likes Australians as well. That's the thing. Like, I think for me, if you go with an attitude of being humble and like inquisitive about a country and not wanting to learn, you're not imposing your will on someone like, do you know what I mean? Going there with humility and just like wanting to experience that culture.

It's amazing. Like people are usually hospitable and like, yeah, you hear, you hear all this, the crazy stuff going on in the world and all the bad stuff. But at the end of the day, majority, the vast majority of people just want to be happy and healthy and friendly and, and want to want to learn and stuff. And when you find that overseas in, in a, in a different environment, it's awesome. Yeah. It's the best thing about it. And like making friends overseas is like one of the best things. Like I've got a bunch of friends, like Instagram friends up in Seattle and stuff that I can go hang out with and then made some friends in Texas.

Like you just slowly meet people and you just get to know people like best advice. And this is probably what like Danny and I do and Heath and I will do a lot is like, obviously we like coffee. So like that's first thing on the list, but it's also such a great way to figure out what to do with the rest of your day. So you wake up, you like research, you find the best coffee shops. You go to a roastery or something, which is usually going to be the best. And you just talk to

the baristas or like the staff and like, Hey, you can imagine if someone like from out of town came to work out here or came to comfort for a coffee. I'm just like, Hey, we're just like wanting to stop in and go to the gym stuff. But now we're on like holidays. What do we do? Like, you'd have so many recommendations and you'd be like, yeah, you're plugged in like creative active person in the community. It's really good. It's the best way. And if you start asking baristas or like staff members at cafes, like what to do and around, like you're like, we're here for a day.

Like, where's the best place to go? I mean, someone asked me that I'd give them the best day on the peninsula. So there's no reason why you have to do that on the other side of the world either. Totally. We should do that. We should go like so good. Just even like just around city or you go like drive half an hour in one direction. Yeah. Go to a cafe and talk to someone. They'll tell you some pretty cool things to do. And you wouldn't have thought of, and like you get that real experience of like, I don't know what the locals live like.

I've never been one to like, cool, let's go see this monument or this building or like, I'm happy to see it, but it's also like, it's a thing. Yeah. I want to experience culture around that monument. Totally. Yeah. You can do so different. Yeah. You definitely do both. Yeah. That's a big thing for me. That's super cool. And then you might make a friend and then you've got to catch down next time. That's the goal. That's the goal. Network for couches to sleep on. Also side effect of that, when people get married, then you have to fly to their weddings.

Yeah. Tough. Yeah. But also, well, that's why, that's why James and I are going to South America because he's one of his mates getting married. That's it. Like it's an amazing thing, but it's also like, Oh, so many international friends. Yeah. I got like, I kind of hate destination weddings in a way, but at the same time, I kind of love destination, destination wedding. Depends where it is. Depends where it is. Bali all the time. Oh yeah. Stop getting married to Bali guys. Shout out to everyone who's not getting married to Bali. Well, one of my mates, shout out to Matt.

He, uh, he sent me his wedding invitation and I was like, I was like, yep, sweet. I'll be able to go South, South Africa. And I was like, fuck yeah, that's me. I always want to go to Cape Town. That's so cool. And I'm like, that's sick. And then I looked at it and it's the same date we're in South America. South different continent. Damn it. Not even close. I couldn't be further away. So, so yeah, unfortunately I'm gonna have to have to go visit those guys at another time, which is not the worst, worst problem to have.

No, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's super cool. Yeah. What are you probably kind of half answered, but what, what's your favorite part of the world? What's your favorite place in the world? I've done a lot of America now, but it's really tough. I think, man, Australia is pretty beautiful. Like every time you come home, like there's no place like there's no place, especially the peninsula, like we're super lucky. I don't think enough people know about it and I kind of don't want them to know that it is really beautiful, but if I couldn't pick Australia, it would probably be New York.

Awesome. It's just got me. Like you can be on the subway and this is like one of those like crazy moments where you just like sing on the subway and it's packed and you're just like sitting there and you're like that person there is like clearly got like gym clothes or something, or like that person's just come from like dance lessons, but just like so many people living so many different lives. And like you even see it in Melbourne, like in a city of that size, like people can be doing random things, but there's a community around it.

Like you can be a unicyclist in Mornington and you're not going to have any nights because obviously, well, well, yeah, mate. Yeah, there's probably only no, but like in a city you can find enough people that are engaged with that. How many people live in New York? It's like 18 million. That's crazy. So almost Australia's population. Nearly Australia's population. If you like expanded New York out a little bit, you would get Australia's population in a city pretty much like it's insane. But like just thinking about that and how like you like look up at a building like that building has more people in it than Frankston.

Like that's really crazy. Like right now, it's pretty humbling, pretty humbling, like for sure. But also like any kind of food you like any kind of anything you like, like if you have an interest in something, there will be somewhere for it to be sitting out, expressed and done. It's just one of those like incredible things in the sheer scale of everything there. Like it's got this like beauty to it as well. Like, I don't know. Some people like, yeah, some people hate like cityscapes. There's always noise as well. That'd be amazing. Yeah, just like

cultural differences, like different sections of like Brooklyn and you can go into like the deeper parts where it's like, like Haitian communities and stuff like that. Like just seeing like how diverse a city, how diverse a city is. However, it actually gets along pretty well. Like, it's, it's super unique. And like everyone's kind of, I don't know, a more well rounded human because of that. There's so many different humans around. Yeah. And you do realize, like, might sound bad, but more differential is extremely white. Like, well, yeah, it's not the most diverse part of the world.

So it's, which is probably one of its main or its only detriment. Yeah, it's there's no, that's it. And it's like, I just feel, I feel hungry for that culture. Like, what's different? Like, yeah, it's super exciting and like, fulfilling. Yeah. Other people. Yeah, that's super, super cool. Yeah. And New York's beautiful. Like, it's making me want to travel. Do it. Have you been to New York? No. Why not? Well, I just haven't. Have you been to America? Mainland? No, I haven't been to Mainland. You've just been to Hawaii. So yeah, I've done like a big chunk of Asia.

I've done New Zealand, done Hawaii a couple of times, but yeah, I've done big chunks of Australia. But yeah, never been to America. So South America next year will be very eye opening. Yeah, it's super cool. I'm hanging out for it. I want to get everywhere though. Yeah. There's nowhere, I can't think of a place I'm like, no, I don't want to go there. I was um, I was having a chat with, with Jess Ryan, shout out, and we're talking about goals and how that we need to stop putting ceilings on it. And one of the things that I was like, I've never really set travel goals.

But yeah, every consonant next five years. That's cool. I think I said that today without realizing like that. It's on the podcast. Shit, I'm gonna have to listen back and write down all the stuff I said I did. Do you want to put on there getting a tattoo or something? Let's do this. When did you put a bumper sticker on a Lamborghini? Yes. Yeah, if it was a vertice one. I don't know. I just, I have no need. I have no need or want or desire to get a tattoo. I don't think I wouldn't. Yeah. But I just, I feel like for me, tattoos have to be important.

Yeah. Like it's, I don't know. It'd be cool to have a martini glass and a basketball on my ankle. That's cool. Shout out Tristan Rivers for shitty home job tattoos. Yeah, we talked about that in the snake hole one. Yeah. Games of noughts and crosses and crosses. That's the kind of community and fun that people, more people need to be a part of. Scar for life, essentially. I don't know. I might get a vertice fee sometime, some point. That's it. Well, Sammy Koech's got a common folk on him. That's cool. Just because of what it means to me.

Totally. And the thought of like, Sammy said, if I sell common folk one day, like, it's still an amazing part of my life. I did so much. I learned so much. Like, yeah, regardless. I think that's the same. I'm looking forward to having him on when he gets back. I haven't asked him yet, but I'm sure he'd be keen. He sucks. It'd be pretty boring. You just talk about you and teeth and Shannon and all the cool cast. He's not very interesting either. Pretty boring? Yeah. He's going to hate that. Really like basic. What stories do I have?

Just a basic guy, like nothing interesting. Just vanilla. Big fan. Big fan. He's like the bottom half of a muffin. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If someone else asks me what vertice means to me, like, I could just sit there and talk all day, which I think like, that's kind of the only thing at this stage in my life that I'd think about maybe getting tattooed somewhere. But even then you don't have to like, it's still, yeah. The V is still important to me, regardless. Talk to me about gin. Oh, my man. Cool. I've probably had, and you're going to hate this so much, but I've probably had five glasses of gin ever.

It's allowed. And I like, it didn't do it for me. I don't get it. Shout out to Heath. If you don't like gin, you just haven't had the right gin yet. Okay. All right. That's a good quote. Put that on a t-shirt. Yeah. Heck yeah. Boys are genius. Boys are genius. But basically, so like Heath and Bestie and I all just had a mutual love for gin, decided that we would start drinking gin on Mondays and that's where it started. Nice. I like that it's Mondays and it's not Fridays. Totally. Well, it was the day that we were working.

Yeah. Well, that makes sense. It's like Heath. There's always going to be a deeper reason for it. Nope. We want it for enjoyment. Always happen to be in the building. Yeah. Okay. Good. But it fits now and it's stuck. So what's your gin club called? Uh, we are drops of juniper. We are a gin and DJing collective. So drops of juniper has double meaning cause it's like juniper as in gin. And drops. And drops. I got the juniper bit, but I never knew that drops were it. So there you go. And it's also just a banger of a track drops of Jupiter.

Yeah. True. True. Which is good. So yeah, we partake in gin every Monday. We partake. Once 40 seasons over, I'll have to join you. Jump in, man. It's always good. It's just good. Like trying different gins, talking about it. It's just a social thing as well as a delicious thing. And it's quality based. It's good. That's it. It's always about, well, the idea was like, you can go buy an expensive bottle of gin by yourself and then like not share it with anyone. What's the point? Didn't the Aldi gin win best gin or one of the best?

Yeah, I got tagged in that about 35 times. So people now know that I like gin and we, us boys like gin. Yeah. So we get tagged and stuff like that all the time. Um, we haven't had it. I don't think it was available in this Aldi. Okay. I think it was just in London or in England. So, um, I would probably open your mind a little bit to not try expensive gins. No, totally. We're happy to try it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we go to Bad Frankie as well up in the city on Smith street, just off Smith street.

Shout out to our Shelby and Seb legends at Bad Frankie. Is that where you were last week? Yeah. Like once a week, it's our local that's like 50 minutes away. It's the local. Local that costs 100 bucks on Uber to get home. Yeah. Savage. That's the hard part. But, um, they've, they're an all Australian gin and whiskey bar. Awesome. Um, so it's really good to just try lots of like local stuff and it's amazing to see it. Like I think said post the other day, there's ever a hundred, um, different spirit makers in Australia now. You wouldn't think that.

Not in the space. No, that's it. So it's like, it's massive to see that like so many people are doing what they love and like kind of pushing the boundaries. We've got a lot of like local makers and stuff like that. That's awesome. So, and then, and then you're supporting local business and people that are doing things they love anyway. Yeah. And it's like, if you've got the option, there's two things on the shelf that both cost $70. You can buy like some crappy Bombay sapphire. Or you can buy something like some local that was like awesome and supporting a dude like, or a girl that's doing something local, like bass and Flinders.

They don't have some cool stuff near us. Like four pillars are doing some cool stuff. Like there's lots of local dudes. What daddy back and stuff from your trip? I'm back on the second of November. Oh, fuck. That's it's so long. I might sub in for you and drops. Can you DJ? No. Good. You're hired. Yeah. Oh, I like it. Sorry. Virtus I'm out. DJ. This is my resignation on the podcast. It's super cool that you found something that you, it's kind of like a mutual appreciation society. Yeah. It's, it's really cool. Um, just, yeah.

So it was talking to say about bad Frankie and he wants to do something similar up there and just like, cause he gets people coming to him with lots of new stuff. So he's like, it'd be cool just to have like you guys and a bunch of other people come in on like a Tuesday or Wednesday and we'll just taste some new samples and stuff and just like treat yourself community. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. It's cool. And communities are built around mutual appreciation. So appreciation for something, something that people love and passionate about because then everyone keeps coming back to the world because they're always going to get something different out of it.

Yep. That's cool. For sure. Talk to me about seasons. Oh, seasons segue. This is a big thing and this is a big thing to do with like my faith and being obedient to what God's telling me to do. Yeah. So I feel like a lot of Christians would have heard of seasons, but I feel like it's important regardless of your faith and what you believe. But I feel like a lot of the times we're stuck in a season. So for me, I think this season at the moment is a lot of learning how to listen. Like I don't know for myself as a lot of the fixer.

Like people will say something to me and I'm like, yeah, do this, do this, do this. And like a few people have like recently been like needing me to like listen and just shut up. Like, and that's a big thing for me. It's like learning how to listen. And then also like, and you've definitely helped with this is like how to look after myself so I can help others. Like, cause a lot of the time, I just take on burdens, take on, take on stuff. It's something I'm good at suggesting and not great at doing myself.

It's tough man. It is super tough. Use the analogy like you've got a cup filled with water and that water will, we all need to drink water. And if you have five people that you're dishing a little bit of that water out to, you get less water. Totally. If you're not looking after yourself, you can't look after other people. So you need to find those ways of refilling that cup to allow you to look after everyone else. Totally. So like being healthy, like making sure you're moving, like getting the dolphins flying, all that kind of stuff.

Like it's super important in like making sure you're like mentally and like physically healthy. I love how you said dolphins. It is. That's the dolphins. The dolphins. In dolphins. No, no, no, definitely dolphins. The dolphins. It's easy. But yeah, so I think that that's my season at the moment, but I think like if everyone like can identify the season that they're currently in and kind of like, like lean into that, like that's cool. Sometimes it's going to suck rather than pulling away. Yeah. You're going to be in a season. It's kind of like, this could be a shitty season.

Like it's really tough, but then also like, you'll be in some good seasons. So growth period as well. Growth periods, you can be in like times of celebration and like, yeah, we've, we've hit a point and this is amazing. And you've probably like, you could probably talk about the seasons you had through Virtus. Like it's almost like chapters. Like you're talking about chapters. I like that. Yeah. Chapters is cool. Cause like you basically writing a book of your life. Totally. And like, where would you break it up? It's not like exactly six months every time, but it'd be like, these are like clear periods of time where this was like the focus of what was happening.

And just like really just lean into those and like, I don't know what, what am I supposed to be learning here? What am I supposed to be celebrating? What am I supposed to be doing? So big thing for me is like, listening to God and just like, what's supposed to be happening here? Like, and just, if you're supposed to be doing something like be obedient to that and okay, lean in, it might suck and it might not be what you want or what you plan, but what you think you want. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So like

an example, like when I first started common folk, I think it was like two weeks after that, I got an offer to go work in New York, roasting coffee, big money, big everything. I've always wanted to live overseas. I love New York. I wanted to do it with coffee. Great opportunity. How long ago was that? Literally like, would have been July last year. Okay. Big opportunity, sent it great on paper. Just couldn't get any peace about it. Prayed about it. Everything just could not find any peace. And it was like, okay, cool. My season is a common folk.

This is what I'm doing. And you just had to like come to that realization. And like, there's such a peace about that knowing that like, it shouldn't, I don't know, like you can still question and think and wonder what would it have been like, what would it have been like, but I don't know. There's like, you know, deep inside, like, you know what, what you're supposed to be doing those kinds of things. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm someone who like, I'm, I don't have any faith at all in terms of like a high power or anything like that.

Yeah. But at the same time, you kind of, I've got a thing where I hate, I hate when people say that things happen for a reason, because it kind of takes power away, I think. Yeah. And it takes, it takes ownership away. And like, I think things happen when you do things. But kind of a little saying I'll say to a lot of the interns and KP and stuff that I don't think things happen for a reason. But things kind of happen for a reason if you do the right things for the right reasons. Yeah.

Because you're, yeah, like things will happen the way, the way you want it to, or the way they should, not necessarily the way you want it to, but the way they should. And it might take six months or 10 months or three months of just slogging it out. But things will end up the way they should be, the way they're meant to be. Yeah. I think things will happen like, I'm still kind of fighting with that a little bit. It's tough, man. I think a lot of times you'll be presented with opportunities, or options, or things like that.

And like, the choice is still yours. Yeah. It could go either way. Like, I think that's what's meant to happen. Do you know what I mean? Like, things happen for a reason. Yeah. Is like, you're given this crossroad of like, decision making. Yeah. That's what you're given. Yeah. Not so much like, fate, and you have no say, and you just want it for the right. Exactly. I think I just need a better way to articulate that feeling. I'm totally with you, man. Yeah. 100%. But that was a big thing. So like, being obedient is so tough.

But yeah, for me and my faith, that's a big thing. Like, I don't know, just to have that peace. And like, I'm so happy that I've been a convert, because like, the relationship I've got to build, the things I've been able to do, like, and like, it might have been my dream to go live overseas and do that kind of stuff. But I've got faith that if that's what's supposed to happen, it will. And it'll be a better opportunity. It'll be a better like, yeah, it's almost a test. That's an awesome way to look at it.

Yeah, I feel like God could probably be like, hey, here's this opportunity. But like, if you're a sucker, and don't listen to me and take it, you won't be fulfilled. And you won't feel like, I don't know, it's kind of a bit of a test for me, maybe like, this thing that you thought you wanted and loved and needed. Yeah. Is here for the taking if you want it. But I'm telling you, it's not right yet. Yeah. Dude, why are you doing this to me? Why are you teasing me? Like, yeah, you really gonna make me say no, like, if it's meant to be, it'll come back around.

Exactly. It's cool. Big for the, I'm trying to think of a way to work this question for the bigoted non spiritual humans like myself. Yeah. Why do you have faith? For me? It's, it's a really interesting one. So for me, like after high school, I didn't think I was gonna be a Christian. I was like, I'm a bit too smart for this. Yeah, I know everything kind of thing. But I got to the stage of like, first couple of friends I met at uni. Yeah. Like, super sheltered Peninsula, obviously, going to uni was like, Muslim girl, gay friend, like just diversity.

I was like, Whoa, amazing world so different. And like, it wasn't that I was like shocked or like, unsafe or anything like that. But it was like, whoa, I'm missing kind of something. There's something that I'm like, there's a hole. That's cool. And that's what it was. And I just kind of like talked to friends about it. Went back to church and kind of found out that like, what I was feeling missing was that was like, my relationship with God and Jesus. And cool. That I don't know that that was a hole and like, I wasn't gonna fill that with anything else.

Good. And just, I don't know, those kind of obedience things as well, like, God's provided in all those kind of times when I've had questions. Yeah. There haven't been answers. It's something to come back to. It's just this, I don't know. It's an everyone's different, man. It's so hard to describe your faith. And I love that because the first two words you said when I asked you was for me. Yeah, and that's what's that's, I think that's why it's so important. As soon as you start to project the way you feel about things like that on other people, and I've probably been good with healing in the past.

Yeah. Because like, for me, I can't get my head around it. Like around faith and around God and things like that. And until you've, like, felt it or searched for it, like, you're not gonna like, yeah, it's sort of intellectual things. Like, yeah, exactly. And like, I'm not spiritual. So I say I'm not spiritual, but there's certain things I'm spiritual about. So it's like, well, you know, you kind of you find your own, I guess, biases and opinions on things like that. But that's, I've no doubt that's going to change. And it has changed. Yeah, it's going to change over the next few years.

And yeah, whatever it ends up being, it ends up being. Totally. And I feel like for me, it's a bit different. Like, I found my faith kind of not really through any hardship, whereas a lot of people will like, hit rock bottom. So that for me was like, a bit different. Like, a lot of people like bottom out, like, what the heck, I need to find, find something they're searching, they're looking, and that's when they find God, or they've grown up in a Christian household, and then they've, like, had their parents' faith and that kind of stuff for ages.

Yeah. And then they get to say, like, Whoa, I need to figure out what this is. It's so different to what I was taught, all that kind of stuff. And they have to like, yeah, but then figuring it out and finding it out for yourself. That's, that's the best thing because it's, yeah, it's yours. It's super interesting to find out how people, how people came together as well. Yeah, for me, it was kind of just like, I felt that missing when I kind of left my high school community and like, those group of friends. Yeah, I was like, Oh, that's what's missing.

I thought it was just friends. Yeah. But it was this higher. It's good that you were able to identify what it was. Yeah. And it's not easy. Like you kind of because you're trying to learn and I feel like you kind of feel behind the eight ball, like not having all that Bible knowledge or things growing up in church, but like, people are pretty good about it. Basically, the biggest thing for me is like, that I take away from the relationship with God is like, love everyone. Like that's such a massive thing. Yeah. And like, life is literally a view for the prison of like, loving others.

That's it. Like, everything, everything else is insignificant. I can't even think of anything else that doesn't fit in that prison was like, does this love others? If it doesn't, then don't do it. Like, it's such an easy way to think about things. And it makes like, those kind of decisions so much easier. Yeah, super cool. That's the thing. And like, it's great to see that that kind of Christianity is still there. But like, all people think about is like, the Christian telling you, no, don't do this. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it tells you to love like, that's the thing.

And like, I've got a lot of, I guess, opinions on religion, and they're probably a lot of, like biases that I'm probably working through and changing and tweaking and things like that. But at the end of the day, I think religion will get to a point where I don't think it's going to go anywhere. But it'll get to a point where it's changed to the way you kind of you look at things rather than don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. Yeah. And that's it. Like, I don't think it could like, we're evolving. Yeah.

We're getting there. Yeah. The don't do the don't do is so dangerous as well. Like, yeah. As soon as you're telling other people how to live, then that's what creates that conflict. Yeah. Which is why there's so many. Totally. To simplify worldwide, worldwide conflicts. Yeah. That's probably why a lot of those things are happening. Because people are telling people how to live. Yeah. And it's coming from like, a point of like, above and negative, as opposed to flag from within and love outwardly. Like, yeah, that's the big difference. I think if everyone was like loving each other, no matter what, race, religion, anything, like, yeah, the world's gonna be a better place.

Yeah, but it's coming from like, you're different. Yeah, exactly. People don't act quite as different. It's like, oh, you're different. I love you. That's the best. Yeah. Well, that's exactly it. What can I learn from you? How can we mutually help each other be better? Yeah. I've got a bunch of questions for you. And I want them to be relatively succinct answers. But you can go nuts. Am I going for the record? I think we've hit the record. What time is it? We're like five minutes away from hitting the record. Ten minutes away. Cam and Pulsi talked the longest, so you're officially talking longer than them.

Yeah. Depends how many questions I've asked. We could shut it off now and Cam keeps the mantle, but I'm not going to. All right. This is like a multi-layered question. So you can answer each bit as you see fit. From whom or what do you draw inspiration? What are the things that have shaped you as a person? Well, it'd be so many people. Like, I feel like everyone I'm around has lots of little things that I like to take. Like, so skills wise, I could be like Caleb roasting and like Danny photography, those kinds of things.

But then also like things about people I really appreciate, like people's like willingness to give time and things like that. Like, I wouldn't say anyone in particular or anything in particular, but like bits from everyone and everything. How can I learn? Like, that's a really good part of who you are. Yeah. I love that about you. And I want to try and be more like that. Good. Yeah. Copy. Yeah. Copy. Boring. Not one thing. What are you grateful for? I'm grateful. I mean, just being born where I was having a loving family, that kind of stuff like support networks, those kinds of things.

I feel like a lot of people don't. I haven't had any like major kind of like crazy things happen in my life. Any trauma or anything to deal with. Like, yeah, just super lucky like that. And I don't know, I feel like so many people have gone through some stuff. Yeah. That just like, is like a massive handbrake, like you like to say on their lives and stuff like that. And I don't I don't feel like I've got those. And I feel super blessed that that's like, something I'm not dealing with. Yeah. I like that. I can't remember.

It was when I hurt my shoulder, like it was just like, someone asked me how I was feeling and stuff. And I'm just like, Oh, worse things have happened to better people. Yeah. And like, when you kind of allow yourself out of that, for me, situation, or blame situation, then great gratitude is one of those things that just flows naturally. Yeah. And like you said, like being in this part of the world, like, oh, we're in the best part. Like the way I look at it, and I haven't been to every part of the world. So I can't categorically confirm or deny.

But I think this is the best part of the world. Yeah, we're pretty lucky. We've got a lot of rad things around us. Yeah. What is your greatest achievement? Thus far, greatest achievements, an interesting goal at 25 years old? Yeah, I mean, this is gonna be weird. But if you haven't seen it, and I think it's pretty good. I made a secret Instagram about Heath. What is this? No. Oh, no. So it's called Keith word, just say Heath wages. But with a K at the front of it, vegan alter ego. No way. So it started, I was taking photos of him and writing vegan captions.

And it was going for about three months. He had no idea. Everyone at comic book knew about it. His girlfriend knew about his housemates knew about it everyone, but he didn't. He had no idea. It was about three months. And like, this is some of my best work, like, oh, photos were average, but the right kind of average for it. But the copywriting, like the comments, and like the captions and the hashtags I was coming up with absolute gold, got it to have double the followers he had on his own. That was getting offers from like vegan t shirt companies for samples and stuff.

The idea was like to give it to him at our work Christmas party. Yeah, I was gonna send him a bottle of Keith butcher, which was his brand that he'd come up with about kombucha. It was his own brand of kombucha. And then send him a friend request from himself. How did it all come in it? So like some stupid friends of his who I'm still salty about. This is something I'd be upset man. They came in and they were like, Oh, we saw you your vegan Instagram. He instantly turned around. I was like, Tommy, what have you done?

Wasn't even angry. I just I literally just dropped to the ground was I'm just devastated. Yeah, lots of work. It's like, no, like, I had people come folks sending me photos like stuff like this for key. That's incredible. It was it's literally like, to keep up that level of prank. Yeah, so long. Yeah, at such a high quality and like him not know about it. I was like, that's good. It's a weird achievement, but I'm pretty proud. And it's still up. So if you want to go check it out, I'm gonna check it out. And and I want to do something.

Yeah, it's I want to make a book because I don't want it to like ever disappear. Yeah, but like just look at go through every post and look at the level of just the level of commitment to it. It's just if you ever need a laugh. I tell you, like, it'll get you really happy because of the faces. That's golden. Oh, yeah. So that's it. It's quite an achievement. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. But I lost the love for it. I couldn't keep it going. No, that's fair. That's fair. When it when the gig was up.

So when he found out just wasn't saying Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I can't believe that. That's the best. And for those that don't know, Tommy, he's always around with his camera. So yeah, he'll always be sneaking shots and common folks a place where there's always something going on. So you don't notice him as much. Yeah. Get some sneaky shots. That's amazing. Jimmy morning rituals. Oh, nope. Get up and go to work. I think good. I think that's pretty good. I don't actually. There you go. Yeah. If you could give teenage you one piece of advice, what would it be?

You're not going to figure it out. Don't try and figure it out. And probably Yeah, be obedient to like, opportunities and like things that you feel like being placed in front of you for a reason. Like, yeah, be willing to fail. Like, failed a lot of stuff. Six and lots of stuff and failed a lot of stuff. Like, yeah, when you're fucked up, you really know. Yeah, like, what's important and what you want and all that kind of thing. If you learn one thing from that, like, it's worth it. Yeah. What's the nicest thing you've ever done for someone?

I've heard Keith wedges. I've heard this on the podcast and like, I don't know, I don't want to think about it. It's interesting. It's an interesting one. I don't want to have to remember it because I feel like me being nice shouldn't be like ticking of a box or like an accomplishment. Like, I just want to be someone who's nice all the time. And like the level of me being nice is irrelevant. It's me being nice. Like if it's a big thing, a little thing. Yeah. The fact that I'm being nice to lots of people all the time.

As like the fact that I'm not keeping checks and balances like, hey, I did that nice thing for you once. Yeah. Nice is unconditional. Yeah. Having those that accumulation of yeah. I think it's lots of little things all that keeps adding up to be the answers for pretty much everyone. But it's an interesting thought process when you go, am I a nice person? Totally. I'd like to think I'm a nice person. Yeah. You're right. Thanks. What is the nicest thing? I just asked that one. What am I smoking? It's been a long, long podcast and I need a pee.

Because I drank too much water. Use one of those empty bottles. I think it's seven bottles. Yeah. What's the last book you read starts finish and what did you learn from it? Um, I just finished Aziz Ansari's Modern Romance. Good. Good, man. Yeah. I like it's really interesting. Like talking about, um, just how different everything is. So like talking about different kinds of relationships, um, how like the age you're in now is like, we've got this like unlimited platter of people, um, essentially at our fingertips to me. Yeah. And that's like stopping people from actually picking someone and like that inability to settle down.

That's interesting. Um, even just modes of communication, like how we're way more willing to like break up with people via texts and stuff. That's mind blowing for me. All those kinds of things. Like, well, for me, like I really don't like phone calls if I don't know the person or what it's about. Like if someone just rings me, I'm like, I don't know what this is about. Like I don't want to pick up, especially unknown numbers. I'm like, leave a message. Then I'll go back to you. But like, I feel like that's massive for younger generations as well.

Like they won't use their phones for calling. So just like getting insights into that. I'd much rather sit down and talk to someone like that I know rather than texting and Facebook and things like that. Yeah. But you kind of, I think if I know what it is totally fine with the phone call, but when it's like an unknown, there's an anxiety of like, who could it be? What is it? What have I done wrong? I don't know. I can't explain it other than like, I just feel really uncomfortable. Like with this phone ringing, not knowing what it is.

I just don't like it. If you could have a billboard over the top of the Monash Freeway, what would be on it? Man, that's a weird one. I like it. I don't know. Maybe just like, man, that's a tough one. I think something that would like brighten people's day. So like, maybe like some like photography, like a landscape or something. I don't know if you could find like a quote that's not cheesy. Yeah. Something like that. I don't know. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. I want to think about that. I want to find a way to bring motivational quotes back.

Yeah. I love a quote. Yeah. I just like, they get so cheesy sometimes. Yeah. I got to put them in captain sometimes when I put a photo up and it's like, no, what am I doing? You're better than this. Just lean into it and just like do an emoji of cheese at the end of it. Just like lean in. Like this is cheesy, but it's true too. Yeah. That's the thing. A lot of ma. Yeah. They're there for a reason. Totally. Yeah. If you could give everyone in the world one personality trait, what would it be?

Yeah. I thought about this one. I think empathy. Good. I think like, so the ability to like understand what someone's feeling like. So a lot of times you can be sympathetic, which means like you feel sorry for someone, but you don't actually put yourself in. It doesn't really help, but like to feel like, I understand what you're feeling and then you can react in a better way. So like, I don't know. I feel like if that happened for everyone, then everyone would be so much more understanding and like, I don't know, the whole world would just like understand what everyone else is going through.

You have to deal with it better and help actually rather than like, Oh, I feel sorry for you. Like you unfortunate person here have this pity because like pity is like one of those things really tough. Like, yeah, I think I understand what you're feeling and I just want to help you be better. So walk a mile in someone's shoes and then you're a mile away from them and you have their shoes. Suckers. If you could be remembered in one sentence, what would it be? I think that I made people around me better. Good. Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. It's not about me so much. Like cool. But like I was able to influence others and help, help them be better at what they were doing. Awesome. Yeah. A couple of favourites to finish off. Good. Favourite hobby? Basketball. Good. Not good, but I like it. I bet you at Virtus Ball. Yeah, it happened. It happened. A lot. I don't want to talk about it. Oh, we panned star. Scotty the other day. Really? Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah, Scotty. That's what we want. If you lose Virtus Ball and don't score, you get passed. Yeah. And then you have to play a whole nother game of Virtus Ball and these jokes.

Which was awkward because like people certainly can't even VJ team. Dude, hurry up. Quick, score. What's your favourite resource for new information? It could be personal or fashionable. This is one that I don't really have one at the moment. I think it would just be like Instagram in general. Like, I don't know, like a lot of photography stuff. I don't know, a lot of people I follow or like payers I follow will like shoot me in directions to read more stuff. Yeah. Or more people. I would be like, people are a resource. Like if you recommended me to read something or like bestie recommended I read something, like those kind of people.

I think that's what it is. I'm not really like, yeah, that's a good one. You kind of get like nudged in certain directions by people around you. But people I trust as well, like if they're going to recommend something, it's going to be good. Yeah. Totally. I'm just going to recommend your shit. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Favourite? What do we, we hit one of them before. Is it a song? Music, man. This is tough. Yeah. And Pulsi like hates this question. It sucks because he's like, he's like, can't quantify it. It's bullshit. Yeah. That's generally what he sounds like when he says it.

So shout out to Pulsi when you eventually listen to this in legend. Four weeks. Yeah. But yeah, like, I agree. I agree. But I just want to first think up your answer. Mate, I can't quantify it. Shut up then, don't ask me. No, no, I have an answer. I mightn't be out of a couple. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with giving a couple of answers. Fleetwood Mac. Yeah. Because they're amazing. Queen because, well, yeah. Yeah. But then the two bands I fell in love with first, like I used to obviously listen to a lot of music with dad driving in his car.

He's like all of the Queen and David Bowie and all that kind of stuff. But the two bands that I've kind of fell in love with my own first was Mystery Jets. Yeah. And the Kooks. There you go. Yeah. So that'd be the two. And Kooks kind of falls and I was like, nah, I'm done with festivals. And then Kooks came out against it. It's not that good at a festival though. Yeah. But it really depends when they, when they're on. Yeah. Like we saw them a couple of years ago and like they weren't that great at the festival, but then we saw them at Festival Hall after.

Yeah. Like a couple of days after it was just like. Yeah. Luke's so dreamy, playing seaside and stuff. Yeah. Best. If I had to pick one. Pick one. I think like just on like quality, like quantity of stuff that I like as well would be like Kanye. In my head I was like, he's gonna say Kanye. I love how nutty. It's a nutcase. I feel like so much of it is intentional and people just think he's nuts and like, he's nuts, but also like he knows he's nuts. Yeah. But yeah, I just, I love lots of different music.

Like I couldn't pick one genre. That's fair. Pick a genre. And I can usually pick like two or three artists in that zone that like, yeah. You're asking me my current favorite song. It's either Dreams by Fleetwood Mac or porcelain by Moby. Yeah. There you go. It'll change next week. Back on Hooked on a Feeling. Yeah. Please don't. Favorite movie? I think it's the Warriors. Yeah. What a movie. Yeah. It's just like, I just love like the. I've not watched that in a long time. Yeah. It's a ripper. I'll have to bring it back. Yeah. It's real long, but I just love like, I don't know, the different world they created and I like loving New York as well.

Like you walk around, you're like, this is such a sick place. That's awesome. It's such a bizarre like world that they created, but I don't know. There's something about it I just love. And that video game is amazing. The old Xbox game. Like, oh dang, that was really good. I like that. That was, yeah, amazing. Favorite TV show? It's probably like the first TV show that I like decided I liked myself was Home Improvement Town. Yeah. And that's why I go for the Pistons. Amazing. That's super. Yeah. I picked my basketball team because of liking them and they lived in Detroit.

Yeah. I just loved it. Like, and I'm one of three boys as well. So I identified a lot with that. That's super cool. Yeah. Ripping TV show. Ripping TV show. Still, still great. Got all of it on DVD. It needs to be on Netflix. I don't have to put a DVD in though. Let's be honest. Yeah. No, fair, cool. Last, last question. What's your favorite quote? Favorite quote is probably mine. Like nothing can't be improved. Good. I feel like it's a good way to look at everything. Like if it, literally nothing I can think of can't get better.

Like it can always get better. There's always a little adjustment or a little tweak or a way you can like want to do it better. And I think just the way thinking of it, even if you're not doing it, like just thinking of like, how can we be better? Yeah. And it's, it's a better way to look at it that like, you will never be perfect. Yeah. It's more like everything can always get a little bit better. Yeah. And I think that's what makes successful people successful. They never satisfied. Never. Yeah. Not never happy because they're happy, but they're never satisfied in that's the finished product.

Yeah. And it's that understanding of the understanding of nothing's perfect, but also the understanding of like, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. That's allowed. It doesn't have to be perfect. Totally. That can always get better. Awesome. Yeah. Any more for any more? I think it's good. I think that's it. All right. Thank you very much. This is a lot of fun. Thank you for teaching me how to podcast. Oh yeah. This is how you podcast and I just wing it. Well, yeah. Good man. Just press record and away you go. See you later guys. Catch you later. Hey guys, thank you very much for listening.

I hope you all learnt a little bit and got a lot out of it and had lots of fun. If you are a first time listener and you enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe. If you are a long time listener and you are still hanging on and you actually liked the podcast and what we're putting out week after week, if you could share it, if you could write a review, if you could, yeah, get the word out a little bit, that would be fantastic. That's pretty much it for me today. Thank you very much for listening. Be amazing.