S3E15 · Darren Murr: Show Up and Do the Work

Alrighty beautiful people, here we are back in the podcast chairs and couch with the great Darren Murr. Mate, welcome. Thank you very much. It's bloody good to have you. Tyler, I wanted to jump on too because... Yeah, well this is one we've both been waiting for a while. If you're a listener of the Quickfire 30 episodes, I think both myself and Locke... Which you should be. You should be, but both myself and Locke, answer to the question of who in your world would make a great guest for the podcast, both answered Darren Murr. So we've both really, really been looking forward to this one.

Ever since you walked through the doors. October last year, you've been around in our lives for a while before then, but like started training. I think during the lockdown when we did the car park sessions. Yep. Late last year. When everyone first started coming back, and the best thing I did. Yeah, best thing I did. We still can't shake ya. No. Bit of praise going on so far. Yeah, we do. I tell you what, the imposter syndrome is starting to peak big time right now. Yeah? Well, no pressure, but this better be the best episode yet.

They say you never meet your heroes, but here we are with Darren Murr, so it's an absolute pleasure, mate. First question for you. I'll catch you out of bed in the morning. It's a good question. And probably not one I've given a lot of thought to before you asked me before the camera came on. The one thing I've learned as I've got older and wiser and learned to sort of sit more comfortably in life is just being around people and trying to help people be better, whether that be business, whether that be sport. Just find a way to have people work together and be better at what they do.

Footy is a massive driver for that, but that spilled over into business in the last sort of five to ten years. Since sport coaching, business has been better. What is it about coaching sport and coaching and I guess the challenges of coaching that's translated or transferred over to business? It's a bit cliche, and it's something that's spoken about in here a lot, just showing up. And it translates, and I've heard you say this over and over and over again, and I use it at work. Sometimes if you turn up, even if it's uncomfortable or it's not going to be nice or whatever, you tick that off and all of a sudden you've made a step.

Whatever that step is, whatever direction it goes, you've just achieved something. And it's a win. It really is. It's a really simple thing. In business, people don't show up a lot because they don't want to give of themselves, they don't want to invest. So if you get them to show up and contribute, then all of a sudden they start to buy in and feel like they've got something to offer. Have you always been someone who's shown up? No, no, not at all. Not at all. No, I've floated through life a lot. And it's only, I

think it's only as you, well, my generation I think in particular, we weren't exposed to a lot of the modern focus on growth and development and things like that. So I can honestly say I blinked in 30 years of life had passed and apart from having a beautiful wife and starting a family. Shout out Michelle Murr. I sort of looked back and went, OK, well, what have I done? I was going to ask, what's been a catalyst for that change? You said you hadn't always shown up. What has been a catalyst for that change? Has it been, you know, your beautiful family or?

And Lachlan, understand this, when you have a family, it does sharpen your focus a little bit. But no, actually, funnily enough, I actually think starting coaching junior footy was the biggest thing. I remember you met Steve Wyatt through footy. And we were standing, another shout out, we were standing at Naramby Oval about 10 years ago with 40-odd kids and 20-odd parents. And they're trying to get two under 10s teams together and one coach. And the president comes across and says, well, we need another coach. Maybe the tap on the shoulder. Well, it's not. No, it was just to the parent group.

If someone doesn't do this, then 20-odd kids are going to miss out. And I sort of looked around expecting someone else to do it. And no one did. And I'm like, oh. And you know Darce, and he was the same with footy then as he is now. So I'm like, if it's not me, he doesn't get it. Because you can see that the 20 that they picked had sort of already were off. And so I went there. And that was probably the first time where, and you talk about imposter syndrome, I'd been out of footy for a long time and really hadn't achieved much.

Am I capable of this? But stick hand up and run. See what happens. What was that first, I mean, you would have had some training sessions, but what was that first game like when you've got 20 kids running around, you've got the team sheet in front of you, and you're like, what the fuck have I got myself into? I wish I had a video of it. That was priceless. We spent 25 minutes in the rooms before the game trying to show these cats. And that's the only way I can describe it. It's like herding cats. Where they're playing and what that meant.

And we had it so well drilled into them. And then they went out, and of course they tossed the coin. And they kicked the other way. So we had kids just running all over the place. And in the end, we had the runner out there trying to, and they went, nah, I just called him back. Let him go. We'll fix it later. It was the first moment I realised it's actually not that important. At that age in particular, it's just not that important. Parents were bent out of shape. It's a good little life lesson. It was.

Parents were completely bent out of shape. Because they thought their kid was playing full forward or whatever. And he was down the other end of the ground. But it was just, there's 24 kids with a mind of their own. We can't fix this. Just let it go. First big spanner in the works. You talked about imposter syndrome. And myself and a lot of my mentors have learnt along the way that that doesn't really go away. You're now in a senior coaching role with the YC Stone Cats. How have you dealt with that imposter syndrome through your years of coaching and business?

It's a premiership senior coaching role to Darren Moore. It's escalated. It's probably got worse in the last couple of years. And that's as a result of exposing yourself to more. And that's business as well. Footy was obviously driven by the boys that I coach wanting to find a home. And connection with YC and that all happening. And then turning up and having that group train with the seniors was great. But then realising actually that means I've got to coach the seniors. And I didn't plan on that. And you're standing there in front of yours truly. Chinni, BJ, Dill Robinen.

And you're going, I've coached eight years of junior footy. What the hell have I got to offer these guys? And you would understand this. What can I say that is going to have any impact on these people? How am I going to help them? And I literally found myself just letting words come out and looking people in the eye going, I've got no idea if this is going to help you but I'm just going to do it. Best thing I did was pull out a training drill. Not a drill but a mechanism in a drill we used when kids weren't talking.

And made people ask please and thank you when they wanted the footy. If you wanted the footy you had to scream please. Good manners. Still one of my favourite pre-season sessions ever. It was hilarious. And Kev mentioned it at presentation last year. He's going, who the fuck is this? But he said within 20 seconds I'm engaged in this drill and I'm screaming please, please, thank you. And the noise levels went up and from that moment on I thought I can do anything here and they're just going to do it. And that gives you some confidence to try.

But I still to this day stand in front of some of those guys and know that they know more than I do. Yeah that's right and that's what I've found too. It is really intimidating standing in front of people. Whether in the gym floor or in a footy environment that you know are better than you. But in that situation they respect your role and no one's going to tell you to get fucked and not listen to you. They respect you and they're going to take what you provide on board. Yeah I think that's the lens that you and I maybe layer over it.

But I reckon at local level they don't just give you respect. So you might confirm or deny this but they will tolerate you if you're in a role. Because I've witnessed some average leaders or average coaches and you watch the body languages of players and they do. They tolerate and they're polite and they do it because they know that the club needs them to do it. But there's a difference and you've got the respect of people on the gym floor and I know people at Red Hill. But that's what we tell ourselves. They have to do it because we're in an official role.

It's not the case. You've still got to earn it. I think tolerate's a good starting point. Genuinely that's a really good way to look at local footy. Because you've got 70 blokes all from the relatively close proximity that are all doing different things. Some have been playing footy for 20 years, some have been new, some have played high level, some haven't. And some are there for fun, some are there because they want to achieve things. Tolerate's a good start and you're right, you've got to earn that respect. But you've also got to earn the engagement and the connection and the trust and the willingness.

And I think that is built over time and quality conversations and being able to connect over something simple like saying please and thank you. You're what, 10 years into your coaching journey? Yeah, roughly. Could you articulate what your coaching philosophies are that you've built over the last 10 years? It's funny because I've tried to write this down a few times and I've never been a strong one at putting these words into play. But the back end of this year, if someone asks me, I care deeply about the people that are going to invest time. I ask a lot, set really high standards and from there we'll expect just unconditional effort.

So that's probably, in simple terms, the way I'd go about it is there's a deep care for all the athletes that I've coached. There's guys now at Pines and Redhill and I still care about them a lot. But I do ask a lot and I do ask them to be unconditional. I do ask them to show up and I do ask them to do the work. And funnily enough, we've never not had success. Now, ultimately winning a flag in footy is viewed as being successful but this year would be probably one of the most successful we've had.

Because who we were chasing was so much better than us. And the progress you were able to make was significant? In a short time, yeah. The season just batted along because under-19's footy is so sick. But there was that one group, and I said that in my losing speech, that having that one mob to chase made us better and gave us a purpose. And I think that's really important. Just forget footy, that's a life thing. You touched on, you'd always been successful. So in years where success wasn't defined by winning a premiership, what did success look like in those years?

You didn't get the cliche 'ultimate success'. What did success look like? Every one of the kids that started the year finished the year better. Yeah, it's growth. Yeah, and growth's a weird word. It's a buzzword I think of your generation. But they just got better. The one thing that we're pretty proud of, and Steve's had a massive impact in my coaching journey, is that generally our messages are around life. They're laid a little bit more deeply than 'pick the footy up, kick the footy, catch the footy, chase that bloke, tackle that bloke'. There's a lot of stuff there that we hope these kids will take and run with life.

That's why junior footy is great, because you're having such a massive impact on young minds so early. But the same things have happened with the senior players. And I think we all crave it, even coming here, talking to you guys, I still crave that sort of direction, those conversations, that fulfilment, that help, whatever that looks like. I think it's been very reflective in our relationship, how it's built between your relationship with us as coaches on the gym floor, but then you're also coach of footy. It's been a cool juxtaposition to be able to, at the end of the day, all sport is all life is just relationship building.

And it's connecting with good people and finding people that are on similar wavelengths and doing cool shit together. What's been the biggest learning shifting from a group of 16, 17 year old kids, shifting and taking them to a senior club where you've got blokes that are 30, 36, orange, shout out, and the other coaches and older. What's it been like basically taking the kids that you've looked after so long into that environment? It's funny because it doesn't feel any different. I get very reflective and that's something I've forced myself to do in the last five to ten years probably, especially since being a parent.

Because we've watched the young men grow and they were literally babies when we started and they're now young men. And they're now engaging in conversations that are just, if you strip it back to where you started when they were eight, I can't believe I'm having this conversation with this bloke. Because I guess as a dad you get to do that with your kids. I'm starting this journey and we're almost three years in with Luce and I can't believe how much she's changed. So I can only imagine the eight till 19 that you've gone through with all your boys.

It's crazy, but I look at Byron and he's a 15 year old. He's 36 but he's a 15 year old. So it's just getting to a senior footy club yet they've got less life experience and they've got more that they need to learn and do and live. But they're just young men and in a footy club you're just a group of young men, whether they're 30 year old young men or 18 year old young men. They're all the same, you know, variations but generally they're wired pretty similarly. But yeah, the watching them grow from eight to 19 has been the intriguing thing.

I mean, Ethan Stanley is a perfect example. I mean, this kid, we battled to keep playing footy and he's a superstar. He just found himself probably beyond where all the pathway programs would look at him. But standing at Sorrento when the under 19s weren't playing and we'd had a training session and we're waiting for the twos to sort of do their thing. And all of a sudden I'm talking to this kid and we're having a really deep life conversation and philosophical conversation about work and then it gets to footy and his whole face and demeanor changes.

And I'm looking at this kid going, "You didn't want to play five years ago." And then I realise, "Oh shit, I've just missed the senior team meeting." You know, stuff like that. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it is pretty cool. It's phenomenal. I look at ages now completely differently now that I'm one of the older guys in a football club where my nickname was Kid for the first couple of years because I was one of the younger guys. And I just looked up to all these giants and played football with them for years and now the majority of the guys I started with are retired.

And I'm looking at it going, "Fuck, age doesn't matter in the slightest." Once you get past 18 you can do whatever you want. All it is is just a number and people's life experiences and personalities change or don't change so dramatically as you kind of shift from 25 to 30 and figure stuff out. My relationship with you and with Das freaks me out because I'm kind of in the middle. Das is me 10, 12 years ago and I feel as though we're on a similar path to what you've shown as a dad. And I kind of just have a conversation with you and I'm like, "Fuck, I feel like I was talking to your son."

And vice versa. Das is a middle aged man in a 18 year old's body. This is true. This is true. He's very stoic. Yeah, he is. And I'll take some of the blame for that. A serious fellow who doesn't let himself... I've let his hair down very often. And that's the beautiful thing about being in footy clubs. You just see all these blokes and as long as everyone is showing up and everyone is doing the work and everyone is invested in each other and cares about each other. Really good things can happen. And I don't think we're actually anywhere near at our max at YC.

Which scares me. There's a lot of what we did this year which is based on the strategy stuff that Paul put in place. But a lot of it is talent based. To me the last bastion is that full deep connection. We're all in and if you're going to beat one of us you have to beat 21 others. We're not quite there yet. So that scares me. Hillman are coming though. I'm sure they are. But I watch this group and I go there's so much power left in them. And that's not a coach driven thing. I can see that coming from within the playing group.

That level of trust and willingness and connection just takes time I think. And it just takes reps of training sessions and games and some of the boys that I have I'm lucky enough to still be playing with and I've played with for a decade or so. We have this connection that I can't really articulate it. It's built on trust. And you and I have spoken about that a couple of times. I remember being challenged by someone associated with the club to start with because of my philosophy of wanting these kids to be exposed to play senior footy.

And they said you're biased. And I looked at them and said yep I am 100%. And they've gone see coaches are biased and I've gone yeah we are. Anyone who says they're biased is crazy. And I've had this conversation with Michelle. I'm absolutely biased because I've been in to battle with these kids for nine years and the ones that have hung in there they've done the work. They keep showing up. They get up when they get knocked down. So I know what I'm going to get. I trust that. And I'm developing that same connection with the senior bike.

So it's not an 18 year old thing or it's just if you go to the wall with someone or go to work with someone whatever that is. And you know they're going to show up and you know they're going to do the work and their best may or may not be good enough but you know you're going to get it and you trust them. What is it that you love about football clubs? I kind of half noted this answer but I look at sporting clubs and football clubs especially as a 21st century church in terms of a place to go to connect and to get around everyone.

What is it that you love about that particular environment? With young men in particular and that's probably the lens that I look at throughout. Having that place to go and that one community outside of work and family where they can go and feel like they belong and feel like they are a part of something. And get whacked when they don't play their role and get cuddled when things aren't working. And it gives them a sense of belonging is probably the simplest word. And I think young men in particular need it now more than ever because there's just not a lot of that structure in their life.

They may have the discipline but just that place where they go and belong as long as they keep going, they show up, they do the work, then everyone will put their arms around them. I've said this to Darce a few times, it doesn't matter which footy club you're a part of, you're going to have a bad moment in your life and if you've invested in that place then they'll be there as long as you need them. That's the great thing about them, just that sense of community, that sense of belonging. And I took that for granted as a kid, that's probably the biggest lesson that I learnt coming back into coaching.

I didn't get this, I didn't understand that. Talk us through your football career. That was going to be my next question, what was your experiences with football clubs as a player versus as a coach? Yeah, my junior days were fondly remembered at P&C Footy Club in Frankston which doesn't exist anymore, opposite Frankston High at Delacombe Park there. My best mate's dad was the coach of that team by and large for most of my junior career. And he was the emcee at my wedding, I had a big part in his funeral, just the depth of that connection is probably what I draw on now and I didn't realise that at the time but that part of footy was amazing.

And I was good but I didn't really understand that I was good and I didn't really understand how to maximise that. I had a grandfather who was a great mentor and mum was amazing but I didn't have that male guy in my corner helping me to learn and navigate that stuff and people will take that the way they want to but I think for young men in particular that's pretty important growing up. But good enough to get into all the pathways and back then St Kilda Development Squads, St Kilda Under 19s and that was the moment where I think my footy journey split from what I think is valuable now.

I never found my way to a senior footy club, I went straight from a junior footy club into pathways and then disappeared into what that looks like and was at St Kilda for four years or three and a bit and two years of 19s and then a year and a half on their list in the twos in a time where you could be delisted in the middle of the year so that's a real kick in the nuts to a young man when you're told in the middle of a season you're not wanted here anymore. Do you have anywhere to go?

No, no. How old were you? So I was 20, 21ish, yeah 20, 21ish. So yeah I played I don't know two years and 19 so it would have been around 21. Yeah that's that's incredibly like when I was 21 like I felt like a 15 year old still. Still do sometimes. What were your sort of coping mechanisms with that and like how? Alcohol. That doesn't change much. No I think the simplest way that I cope was just to not really sit in it, not really reflect and learn from it was to just sort of push it to one side and almost forget it happened.

So if you deny, if you go into denial then it's great. Yeah out of sight out of mind. Yeah absolutely, absolutely. And then you have this false bravado that you're better than what you are and I reflect now and I had plenty of opportunities at St Kilda to do better and I got really close a few times but didn't grasp them and didn't know what they looked like and didn't know what the work meant. So then walk out and start to blame well this it was that and whatever and we all know now as we get older then it's everything you've got or everything you need you've got inside you it's your fault, it's no one else's fault.

But then trying to find my way after that I fell out of love with the game for many reasons because it just got hard, the body started to break. I think that's the other thing that I've learned is when your mind starts to go your body goes. So I went back to Frankston, I didn't play for the rest of that year, I went back to Frankston in the VFA at that point for a year and a bit and just couldn't get going and you sort of then start to feel like a failure. And Robert Mace

who was my high school PE coach from Frankston High, he was coaching at Frankston at the time and finished up there and went down to Rye as coach and the end of that season when it happened I played the back end of that season with a double hernia and I didn't realise that at the time. I'd got the fittest that I could ever remember being, I was running from the bottom of Oliver's Hill to the gym at Tower Hill Road in South Frankston and back four times a week and then doing an hour and a half in the gym and then running back again.

And about halfway through the year I thought oh, groin sore and I can't change direction and just loaded up on Andy and flams got through. But I had a double hernia operation at the end of the year and then I remember hearing nothing from anyone at the footy club. And I'm going hang on, I've just wrecked myself for this and then Rob rang me and said I've just been finished up and I'm going to Rye, would you come down and I was 21 as a playing assistant coach and I'm like yeah why not. And again, sliding doors moment, should have just buckled in for the Rye at Frankston.

But the easy option was no one loves me. There's some good coin on offer here and I trust this bloke because I've been through 10 years at school with him. So I went down there and regret it, not because Rye was a problem but it wasn't the right thing to do. I was 20 year and a bit there and then that was it, I think it was about 23. Round 2 or round 3, just couldn't get my body up and kept breaking down, kept missing games. Again, really good pre-season, tore a hamstring in a practice match, got myself back 2 or 3 games in and still on a Thursday night as a 23 year old I couldn't move properly.

Just got through a game on the weekend and I remember I slumped in the floor at Rye in the change rooms and just started crying in the shower after that game. Until everyone had gone and walked out hoping there was no one there and Rob was still there and I just said I can't do it, I just can't do it anymore, I just cannot do it, I'm done. It's crazy, at that age to have to go through that, essentially alone. Well it was because none of my mates were great footy mates and I had no deep connection with football.

Football was a thing that I did and I thought it was me and then I lost that slowly and I was clearly grieving through that whole process. But I had no one, Mum was great, we were a footy family so Mum understood but as a 21 year old boy that's not what you want. So again you just turned to partying and whatever. It was sad because reflecting on it now, if I had shown up and kept doing the work I think it could have turned and not necessarily for success but just for reward and connection and belonging and all of that stuff.

That could be a segway to my next question is what would current Daz go back and tell 21, 23 year old Daz that's been delisted, he's feeling like a failure, feeling unloved at his footy clubs, what would you go back and tell that young man? You'll be alright, just show up and do the work, just keep turning up, you'll be ok. And whatever ok looks like, we know that has a multitude of lenses, yeah you'll be ok. It's probably the simplest thing I would say is you just put your arm around someone and you'll be ok.

It feels bad, it looks bad and it is bad at this minute but you will be ok. Did you ever go back to footy? Yeah I did actually. So we moved down here in 1996 and of course Mornington were at their busy best at that point in time so my mates and I will be regulars on the hill down at Mornington watching Goose do his stuff. And I played against Goose in the 19's at VFL/AFL level at that point and the year and a bit I was at Frankston he was there too so I had a relationship with him and he turned, I was blind, absolutely pissed off at that.

On the hill I was 29 and he's turned to me half way through the second quarter, he's playing 'It's Murray' and I'm like 'Yeah Goose, concentrate mate' and he goes 'No no no, come up, I need to speak to you after the game'. Yeah no worries. And I looked at my mates and I had a few drinks at that point but I had enough, he's going to try and get me to play and they've gone 'Mate you haven't played for 6 years, you're mad'. And I'm going 'No this smells, we'll go up in the rooms because I know we'll get free drinks but don't leave me because if you leave me I'm going to play'.

Well I've walked up and the team manager and the president's giving mates drink cards and they've ushered me into an office so they were gone, they had 50 buck drink cards. And half an hour later I walked out of the office and they go 'Where have you been?' and I'm going 'Thanks, I'm playing footy again'. And then I had to go home and tell a pregnant wife 'You know that thing I haven't been doing for a while and we're due to have a baby around the finals time of that thing, I'm doing it again back'. And she's like 'No you're not', and I went 'Yeah, I think I am'.

But best thing I ever did, they offered money and not crazy money but it was 'We'll give you this and we'll give you that' and I said 'No no no, I just want to be ok, so I want to be able to go to physio, I need a pair of boots, that's all I want'. Goose was the oldest, I was the second oldest and then there was a big gap, so I was called grandpa. So that was a time warp in and of itself, I walked out of a change room as a 23 year old and into a change room as a 29 year old.

But it is massive, the language was different, the music was different and I'm like 'Whoa, time warp, this is amazing'. But the connection that I built really quickly with these young guys was, they probably don't remember it, in fact I guarantee most of them wouldn't because it was a blip, it was half a year in their footy careers. But it meant the world to me. I played a couple of games in the twos, then got back into the ones and played in a record losing margin to EDS in the grand final but contributed and realised, remembered that I could play.

And that was the important thing, actually you know how to play the game. When you finished you thought all those questions were answered and built a deep enough connection that a couple of the boys were really devastated that they couldn't win the game for me. Because at that point, Mornington were winning every second year. And I'd not won a senior flag and we sat in the rooms, I had a beer in my hand, losing grand final, 90 odd points and I'm like 'I'm done now, I'm okay, I can walk away from the game, I'm okay'. And that was weird because coming back next year I'm like 'no I'm okay, I'm alright'.

Strange but it was good fun. What did the shift from focusing on you and football to then obviously having the kids, what was that like and how did that change your day to day and how did that change your outlook? You had to shift and I'm open now a selfish guy and you psychoanalyse yourself to the cow-calm home for the reasons why but it was and at times you're still drifting into that but you have to shift, you can't be selfish as a parent, you just can't. There's just no way you can thrive and survive as a parent.

And I was lucky, I am lucky, I've got an amazing lady in my life who was the glue and keeps that together. So it was a challenge but you straight away shift into okay we've got these little humans and we have to make sure that they get a fair and reasonable start at this thing because this thing's not easy and if we fuck it up for them then they're starting off the black mark. And I'm sure it's not a reason that they won't win but you just make it harder than it needs to be. They're faster at it.

Yeah so that was probably the biggest thing for that is you shift from that really selfish, self-centred, what am I going to do, what's life about for me into okay well what do we need to do, what's important for Michelle, Charles, Darth, holidays, every decision we made was around them. So that's the simple answer. In that break period just shifting back to the business so between 23 and 29 you weren't involved with footy, how did you occupy your time because you wouldn't have had the family then or the kids then either. What did that period of your life look like?

Like a lot of that first 20 years it just happened and it went, it came and went really quickly. I had no idea what I wanted to do because most of us growing up in my generation just if you were good at footy you wanted to be a footballer and I had no plan B and I was not motivated to study. Mum worked in the promotional merchants, actually I'll step back, I did a year and a half of a landscape garden apprenticeship while I was at St Kilda and loved it but just couldn't, at that moment that was when the AFL/VFL was going professional but semi-professional in the resources.

So doing that job and then trying to play footy. Oh just it was hard, it was really really hard and that was the first moment I went oh no I can't so I walked away from that and then just did stuff, whatever that stuff was for a few years and then Mum realised that I needed some direction from a work perspective because otherwise it was just partying and that's no good. And she's working merch, she worked in merch for all of her life and got me involved with the business she was at then so that's what it was, selling t-shirts and caps and stuff to clubs and businesses and that occupied my life until, crikey, up until a year ago.

So that was the industry I was in, drifted to different businesses and different opportunities within that. It was made redundant as a part of that journey too which was interesting but it was good because you worked with businesses like Virtus and you worked with BHP so the diversity of who you spoke to was really stimulating and the product is just ever changing. You don't do the same hoodies two years in a row and people go hoodies a hoodie, well no it's not, this year you wanted to walk hard. So it was good but again it

was just something that I fell into and just all of a sudden 20 years later, shit I've been doing that for 20 years and that's weird because there's no thought that's gone into that, there's no planning and was it ultimately the best thing that I could have done, probably not. It just is, you know. And it was almost a means to an end in a way because family and kids were there. Yeah, well the first bit of it wasn't, it was just a way to fund life and I've got mates, the mate I work with

now, Rob, he's incredibly driven and was starting to try and work out what he was going to do and who he was going to be at that point in time and made some incredible sacrifices. And now he's this amazing success story and I'm one of his, I'm going to use the word minions, that sounds terrible but I'm one of his minions and you sort of look at that and they're amazing sliding doors moments. And we've spoken, I've spoken to him about it ad nauseam, hats off to him because he was willing to do the things required, take the risks required, show up and do the hard, really hard things and risk a lot to get where he is now.

And I wasn't, I was floating and life was good. And at that point in time everyone would have thought I was really successful because we were probably earning, between Michelle and I, a little bit more than some of our friends so we were doing fine. But there was no purpose to it. Michelle wanted to be a mum and that was her purpose and she enjoyed being with her friends but I just floated through that period. You alluded to changing careers a year or so ago, was that driven by a desire to follow a purpose? Probably

not so much a desire to follow a purpose but a desire to break the cycle of doing what you always know because it's safe and easy. Sort of what we were talking about before, that imposter syndrome, I'd always found a reason to not try something new. I've been doing this for 10 years, I don't know that, I don't have the education, whatever, all of these reasons why you don't do something, that's the imposter syndrome coming out. You find these lenses to put over the front of it and look through them and go okay well, I can't do it because.

And that's your crutch and you lean on it and away you go. And Robert asked me a few times over the journey to come and work for him and the lens that I'd used in those early days was I don't want to risk our relationship. And that's not a bad one because there are plenty of friends that have had business come between their life. But if I'm really honest about that, that was me going I don't know what I'm doing, I don't want you to see that I don't know what I'm doing. Just looking for a barrier.

Yeah absolutely. And he rang me out of the blue middle of last year with another opportunity and this was more concrete than any other. And I don't, I think his hope was that I would do it, I don't think the expectation was and the space that I'm in now, I'm like okay so what does it all mean, what does it look like? And if this doesn't work what does it look like? Let's talk about that stuff. If I tick off, here are all your expectations, if I tick them off but I'm not good enough, like if I fail but I'm trying to do all this stuff, are you okay?

And he sort of looked at me and went yeah of course. So I said that as long as you know that I'm having a crack at all this, it's okay. And he went yep I said okay let's have a go. Perfect. Yeah it was, so again that was the purpose, I was thinking okay well at this point in time I'm 50 years old, got to work for another, who knows, 10, 15, 20, the way life is. I can't keep doing the same stuff, I can't keep showing up. What have been the main lessons over the last 12 months?

I mean there's probably been a few because there's been all those changes and shifts with footy as well but. Yeah that's actually a really good question because I'm not sure I've sat back and reflected on this 12 months enough. Other than to know, and again it's a sick and sad theme but keep showing up because like even today I'm in meetings with people who've been in an industry that has existed forever for 30 years and I just don't know stuff but keep walking into the room. So that's probably what this year, and both footy and workers reinforce that irrespective of how you feel, you're capable, you've got the tools you need inside you to deliver.

Yeah you might need to learn stuff and you might need to absorb more information but you can't do that unless you step into that environment and open yourself up to it. So that's probably been the most common theme and footy, identical footy is the same. Having the opportunity to coach the seniors this year in Paul's absence, it was the best way to coach a senior team ever. Everyone joked with me, here's the keys to the Ferrari don't crash it. One from one? Yeah 100%, but I reckon 12 months ago I wouldn't have done it. I

would have said 'oh nah', well found a way maybe to dilute doing it but bringing more people in and this year I'm like 'oh fuck it'. Do you have a mantra or a self-talk or something that when you're faced with that choice, now you go 'just do it' or do you have something that kind of gives you that self-kick to get moving? Why not? And it's not a 'why not me' thing, it's just a… Why not? Why not? The one thing I think we all learn and you guys are learning younger than I am is

that there's nothing we're going to do in life in real terms that's going to do any damage to us in any way, shape or form if we are good people. So that whole fail thing, I'm a massive believer in you win or you learn so that's probably the attitude that I've taken out of the last couple of years, just keep showing up to win and the worst that's going to happen is you're going to learn something. It's probably the simplest thing and footy's a safe environment for me because I love the game and that coaching

has re-directed or re-found and re-kindled that passion that I had as a 15 year old for playing which I didn't think I actually had even when I went back to Mornington. So that's a no-brainer because you're not going to fail there, just turn up and be involved in something you love doing and win a flag, you don't win a flag, you meet great people. But being at YC I meet you, so I meet you, my son is exposed to this environment, my wife is exposed to this environment so if you look at the domino effect

from that one decision of being involved in a good footy club and Red Hills is home, every club is good, it brings so much to your life. Life is just about networking and relationship building and it's not what you know, it's who you know. I was talking to a young fellow, Mitch Kennedy last night and it's funny, me ending up here in this seat right now goes back to Mitch Kennedy that I barely know. Getting Cam Elliott, the former Virtus coach, down to Ballarat all those years ago, everyone is just connected in some way, shape or form.

Yeah it's amazing and again it's being open to connect with those people even if it's brief. The first meeting with Lachie was a Zoom meeting where Schneider looped him in to try and present the club to the boys. So that's the weirdness of life. When I was speaking to Paul and Schneider about these boys coming across I said, you know, Pines have been working with these kids for years and they know the club and they know the players and they understand that so somehow you need to connect the club to them really quickly and it was COVID, how do you do that?

This guy could have said no, I'm not doing that. But yeah he jumped on a Zoom call with, you know, 15, 17 year olds and their parents to try and sell the footy club and then me knowing what his background was and knowing what Darce was trying to achieve with his footy and where he was training at that point was a haul. So then I reached out a week later and said Lachie, I know we don't know each other but this is where Darce is at and can you help him and bang. I didn't know that's how you two met.

I'm learning something too. Zoom. Zoom. A lot to be said to Zoom. I've never seen Zoom again. I still exist on Teams every day. We've got multiple meetings because when you're now doing business with people in the US and the UK it's easy but it's not fun. Yeah it's not fun. What is your new business actually for the listeners or the last 12 months? The business I work with, the name will have no meaning to anyone, DHR Post but we compete essentially with Australia Post, so e-commerce parcel deliveries. We're not a retailer so we don't

come and pick up your parcel from your street and deliver it somewhere but we work with FedEx and DHL, Ascendia, big what you would call freight aggregators from overseas who go out and sell their services to e-comm businesses, big and small. And then we look after the lane from the US to Australia or from the UK to Australia and to New Zealand on their behalf because it's an inconsequential lane for them. Like DHL and FedEx have their own planes and have their own infrastructure but they don't use it here because the volumes are so low

and we can do it as efficiently and as cost effectively for them and they don't have to invest so that's what we do and the growth is just extraordinary. It's just I can't begin to explain how quickly, I mean Rob's been in business for 20 years but the business in this guy's is really maybe 10 and the success is 3 to 5 and the real success is 18 months. In October it just went bang, when, nah it's when everyone started ordering online, absolutely crazy and it's just not stopped, just not stopped. I mean it's convenience, selling convenience.

Yeah, yeah absolutely you are. Yeah I ordered some posters from Officeworks two days ago, they came from Sydney even though I was like there's an Officeworks three minutes down the road but it's easier for me to just go whack, whack, whack, whack, done and I was looking at the track and say I was like Sydney bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and I'm like that can't be sustainable. But also, Kim Daron did a job. One plane to fly your posters from Sydney to here. Yeah 100%, expensive posters. So it goes to show you how conditioned as humans we've been to this thing, this phenomenon.

I had a complaint two weeks ago from an everyday Joe public who'd ordered something through an online store in the UK and that store engaged with a business that we look after and of course we've got their parcel. And abusing our staff because our tracking online is misleading and I'm looking at it going yeah and it's something we need to fix but because so many businesses are programmed and mapped into them, the change has got to be really gradual because you've got to take those businesses along for the ride. So we've been evolving it to get better and I'm going yeah I get what he's saying, I understand it but he was going off, really off tap.

So in the end one of the girls transferred him through and I started talking to him and he just hung up and went okay and then I got this email, it was like a rant. I brought up his parcel and I'm looking at it going hang on, he ordered this on Friday out of Birmingham and it's the following Thursday and it's in your hand. It's fucked. What are you doing man? What is the problem here? Welcome to 2022. What have we done wrong? So in literally four business days he's ordered something from the UK and it's in his hand and he's going off because we're an untrustworthy misleading business.

It just doesn't compute. I mean it's a nice little like perspective shift, just like guys zoom out for a second, think about what is actually happening here. Yeah you do and you look at all the little stages that he goes through, it's crazy but we have these, it's interesting. So you talk about the impact of business, the footy on business, coaching and connection and humans on business. Our customer service team is based in the Philippines and that is a good or a bad thing depending on what lens you look through it but we couldn't find staff here to fill it.

And then the model we're in, you just, the volume of stuff you need, you can't. So there's a really good community over there. We've got this team, they're amazing. My role is new to the business and the business has traditionally just sold stuff, delivered stuff and dealt with stuff. And we're trying to lift service standards and make sure that customers have a great experience. And a part of that is trying to help this team be better at what they do. And I was sitting at a meeting about a month ago and all of, and you

know what it's like, you talk in a gym, you use numbers, weights and reps and sets and it's just a number, it's a statistic up there. So for us, if we're delivering 98% of what we are given within a certain number of days, we're flying, we're going amazing. And that 98% just sits, like if we deliver a million parcels and we deliver 98% of them, that's a high industry standard. But work out how many parcels don't get delivered if that's 2% of a million parcels, that's a lot of stuff. That's what I was thinking. So, but as a leadership team, all of that, we're all sitting around the table and going, okay, well, this is great.

We're hearing amazing numbers, we're going really well and I'm like, no, we're not. And they're looking at me, but we are, I'm like, no, we're not. What about 12 people sitting in the Philippines who live in shit every day? The whole job, all day, every day is complaints. All day. No one rings them and says, thanks very much for getting my parcel from the UK to Australia. I'm so grateful for you. All they get, and it's like they left it an inch outside, so that corner of the park got wet. Some of the most mundane thing, and yes, if you're in that moment and that's you, maybe you get upset.

But I'm like, so what you're telling me is if we're happy with this position, this 98%, that what they do doesn't matter. So we just look at them and go, really sorry because our business is flying, you just have to deal with this. And I can't cope with it because essentially I'm telling 14 people that what they do doesn't matter because we're not willing to help them be better. We're not willing to be better to take some of that pain away. And our CFO went, oh, I've never thought about it like that. And I'm going, no, I know, that's the issue.

So that's the footy mentality that comes to me. It's like, no, no, we just got to be better. We got to look after each other. We don't have to be the best, but we just got to look after each other. Stop fucking complaining. Please. Stop leaving shit reviews. Yeah, 100%. What does the future look like for you? What is the next five, ten years into our taxi? Footy. Yeah. Yeah. Work. I actually really don't know. I was uncomfortable about this probably through my thirties and forties even. But I'm really comfortable with not knowing now. And I do love you.

You are beautiful. If you're listening, basically just sit there licking Darren's face at the minute. I'm really comfortable not knowing. So there is some stuff with footy that I'd like to tick off. So whether that is me coaching in my own right at senior level or whether that's following my son, I don't know. But there will be footy. Michelle and I need to have some fun. So hello. That will happen. But I don't know. And I'm actually really comfortable with that. Really comfortable with that. We had a meeting with our financial advisor yesterday who we hate and we like lots of people, stuff money up when we're a bit younger and we're nearly recovered.

But that means we're not going to be stinking filthy rich when we retire. But again, I used to be scared of those meetings and now I'm not. I don't know. It's weird. But yeah, there's a chunk of footy to be ticked off. What that looks like, what that feels like, I don't know. Rob, who's my mate, this business, however much longer I'm there, will be about making it better for him for when he exits because he will exit at some point and retire. And the saleability of that then is important to him. So my time here, whether it's two years, three years, five years, is about setting him up for success.

So that's my purpose there. Kids, having grandkids, I don't know. Heard it here first. Charlie. Little Darcy's running around. He's about to say his story out to us. Yeah, I don't know if I could deal with another little Darce, but he's a good boy. He's a wonderful boy. Would you ever look at doing your own thing? Because you strike me as the kind of person that should be driving the bus. Running the business. I have sat in this space for a long, long, long, long time, especially when I was in the merch industry and didn't have the nuts to do it.

Just do it. So now I sit back and go that space is not the space. So yes, I would love to. I don't know what that is, though. I love what you guys do here. So in a perfect world, this sort of business would be something that would appeal. Like potential. Correct. I do love Ted. I do wait until you settle for the last hour. And I keep looking at the office down there going, "What could I do that I could find myself sitting in one of those offices? Do I go back and do a master?"

So yeah, there is a part of me that has that drive, definitely. But I'm less concerned about it. Like I used to have this tug of war on my own head. I need to do something because we want to be rich. But now it's about like I walk into a place and go, "Yeah, this is pretty cool." Like it's the vibe of the place and the purpose of why it's built that appeals. So yeah, who knows? Maybe I can build a freight business that does that. I'm sure we can sort something out. The longer I do this, the less it's about the training and the exo-science side of things and the strength and conditioning.

It's just about what this place means to people and the kind of people it attracts and what we're able to achieve together, and that's it. At the end of the day, what you do doesn't really matter. No. Well, it doesn't matter in the slightest, the way I look at it. No. I think the purpose thing is not overstated. If you know that you can get up in the morning and you have a reason to do, to be, to show up, then it makes life much easier. And we all have the ups and downs business. Life is not, you keep telling me, training is not linear.

Life is not linear. And the ups are really steep. The downs can be just as. But it's that reason to get back up and to go again I think is really important, which an environment like this, if it was my business, it would be easy to understand why. As I said, I love places like Common Folk or Laneway or whatever. Businesses like that, there is a purpose. They have a real passion for what they do, and their business is an extension of them. And yours gives you the ability to do this. I mean, I would never have dreamed of doing a podcast.

That's wonderful. I still have the imposter syndrome. I'm not really sure. Quite an enjoyable conversation with Michelle on Monday. She's like, "You don't want to interview him. He's not interested." Fifteen minutes later in a session, she comes back and she's like, "Is he interesting?" She actually said to me, we took the dog for a walk before. She said, "I've had anxiety all day about this." I said, "Thanks, Dale. Appreciate the support." She got a pump up. Any more for any more? What are we getting Michelle on? Oh, there you go. Good luck with that. Would she?

I reckon you could get her on. And in fact, I mean, I think I can talk. She can talk. She loves to chat. She loves to chat. So it would be fun. Even as I said to her, you know what? If they play this back and it's no good, it goes in the bin, but we've had fun for an hour talking. So that's okay. Yeah, she'd be interesting actually. She'd be interesting. She doesn't think she is, but she would be interesting. She's lived a bit. Stories to tell? Stories to tell. I'll leave that. We'll let that slide off into the horizon and wet the appetite of the listeners maybe for another time.

Yeah, if you want Michelle Murray, shout out. Mate, thank you for spending the last hour with us. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Have a good day.