S3E14 · Jordan Coady: Addiction, Mental Health, and Purpose

Alrighty, beautiful people, welcome back to the Virtus Performance Podcast, I have a very special guest with me today, Jordy, welcome. Thank you. It's good to finally have you on, we've been speaking about this for a few years. We have, it's definitely been a few years, we've been talking about potentially doing this. Yeah, and the podcast took a hiatus, to allow you to keep doing good things and then we can see how we chat, so welcome. First question for you, what gets you out of bed in the morning? I think it's changed over time, but I

think the big thing that gets me out of bed at the moment is just following where I'm at with my ambition, so back at uni, really enjoying that, I think that's my biggest motivation, I've finally found something that just lights my soul on fire, like I've found something that I'm obsessed with and if I don't control myself, I'll spend 12 hours of non-stop reading and just looking into it, because I just absolutely love it, so I'm doing psychology and everything about the mind and working out who you are and why you are the way you

are and relating that to my own experience and just understanding things, it's just, yeah, absolutely love it and it's just there, yeah, I'm just obsessed with it, so that's definitely what gets me out of bed. That's my main thing I guess, and just working towards where I want to go, where I want to be. Yeah, so Bachelor of Psych? Yeah, Bachelor of Psychological Sciences. Where are you doing it? Swinburne. Swinburne. Yeah, it's half online, half in person, which has been really good, so you can sort of tailor it around your own life and how you want to do things, so that's been really good.

How far in are you? So this is first year, so I started, I wanted to start in 2020. It's that crazy. Yeah, and it was just, after 10 years of no school, no learning or anything like that, it was just too much, like it was just, like I had just gotten a customer, yeah, two weeks in, into uni, I sort of just got a customer to figure out how I'm going to do this and then bang, it's all online, they've got no idea what you're doing, I've got no idea what I'm doing, I thought, nah,

I can't do this, I'm just going to put it off another year and yeah, which was a bit disappointing but I think it was the best thing for me because now I'm all in and I couldn't be going any better. What was the thing that pushed you in that direction? So you obviously weren't studying and you know, 10 years out of school is a long time. What kicked you into gear to get you back into the educational arts, so to speak? So it was a bit of a long journey. I think where it sort of

started was I used to be, I used to work for a timber company, so I was an account manager for them for a few years, I worked for them for about five years. Thanks for giving us timber for the office. Oh yeah, no worries, no worries. And it was good, it hit all the marks for you, the money was good, I didn't have to ever worry about money financially, I could afford whatever I needed to, had the company card, the phone, all that sort of stuff and I was moving up pretty quickly, I think I was the youngest account manager of all time.

When I first became the account manager, I think I was 22 or something like that. So you were ticking the boxes? Yeah, so I was doing really well and yeah, I just got to a point where I just realised I don't like this, I don't like having to be someone to sell timber, I don't want to have to, there was always this culture within the timber industry of drinking and just being whoever you have to be to get the sale and just sucking up the people and it just wasn't for me and in that industry,

they all just work for the weekend, it's about making that money and then on the weekend you just go out, you just drink, you get on everything like drugs and go out to clubs and spend all the money and it just wasn't, that's not what I ever envisioned myself being and it's not what I ever wanted to do so I think it was just sort of a gradual decline in happiness and got to the point where I wasn't eating right, I wasn't living right, I was miserable and it was just a massive decline, gained a

whole heap of weight and then sort of realised that it wasn't for me, took a step back from the account managing position and went into sales and then my mental health was a massive decline, just really really struggled, couldn't get out of bed some days and just absolutely hated it. Was there a moment where you're like I've got to change something? Yeah I think it was, I thought stepping back from the account manager because it was such a high pressure position, I thought that might help if I step back and just do like a sales

position and even a sales position, it was the same issues, still hated it, you know even a lot less money and the only vice I had was drinking, could only get through the week. So that was your escape? Yeah and it got pretty bad, yeah it was probably a lot worse than probably what people think and I think it's pretty relevant for people today as well, there are people that you know they hate their job and they got to have a few drinks every night at least just to get through it, get to the next

day yeah and I just got to a point where you know all that money had gone because I spent it all on alcohol just to get through to the day to get to the next day and I think you know I was just absolutely miserable and didn't see a way out of this and I thought I need to make some drastic changes and decided to get back to seeing my psychologist. Yeah awesome. So I'm making some real changes. When you were at school what did you want to do? I had no idea, I had absolutely

no idea, I was always, I was quite intelligent when I was young and I sort of coasted through primary school and then I sort of coasted through primary school and then I got to high school and then you know you sort of have to put in a little bit of effort and I just didn't put any effort in and had sort of emotional and social sort of issues, sort of anxiety issues that never really were dealt with and I think I really put aside achieving anything in high school it was just more just getting through

it was definitely a massive struggle and it was more just trying to get through it try and move on to something that will make me happy which I never. And then you just kind of shifted straight from high school to that lot of work? Pretty much, when I finished high school I didn't do very well, I only got like a low 50 ATAR or whatever they call it now, that was a bit disappointing but I didn't try so obviously that's what's going to happen and then I sort of still had no idea, I always thought something business, that's all I can merit, I'd like to maybe wear a suit and do something in business, that's all I could think of.

So almost everything? Yeah pretty much, so then I thought I might do a certificate for marketing, that'll do. And you knocked that off? This is related, I did the first year and it was good but again the same thing, couldn't focus on the work, wasn't really interested in just trying to get through the day and hope that this might lead to something that might make me happy, never really did so ended up deferring a year and went and worked for a supermarket so I worked there full time, stayed there for a bit and I think

I stayed there until about 20 and yeah they just, again similar issues, just couldn't find happiness there, just didn't meet things within me that I wanted. For context for everyone, how old are you now? 29. So basically a decade of trying to figure it out. Pretty much. Are you happy now? Yeah, happiest I've ever been. So it's a good place to be? Yeah, I think that's, they put so much pressure on you when you're in high school to figure out what you want to do, what you want to be and I had no idea and how are you supposed to have any idea when you don't even know who you are?

Like I was battling depression, anxiety, I didn't even know myself who I am and I was still trying to figure it out and I reckon it's taken probably to about 26 I reckon, so maybe about 3 or 4 years ago. And was the point where you were at kind of your breaking point with your weight and your mental health and things were going backwards quickly? I reckon it was about, I'd moved back home, I'm still back home, I don't know I was just drinking. As long as you can. I have no issues with that, I save a lot of money living home so it's not that bad.

But I reckon yeah I sort of moved home, I'd been back home for about 6 months and I was just drinking every night at least 15 to 20 beers a night, minimum and that's the only thing that would ever make me happy and if I wasn't drinking then I wasn't happy. I never really ate that badly, I didn't eat very good but with all the alcohol and just no exercise, nothing in the way of looking after myself at all, got up to about 125 kilos and then I do remember one day when I stood on the scales and I saw that number and I thought holy shit what's happened here.

And there's a certain point as well when you drink that much you become that much of an alcoholic that it doesn't matter how much more you try and drink it, you're not going to find anything at the end of that slab of beer, what you're trying to chase all those times trying to feel good and trying to just attract yourself from the world it doesn't do enough and I think that's where people start going deeper and deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole in that they're trying to avoid things, trying to not deal with what's

going on that you get so far down that you don't even know what you're looking for anymore and you're just drinking for the sake of drinking because you don't know anything else and I think that's where I was at and my family had always been concerned and tried to help as much as they could but when you're an alcoholic you cannot be saved, you have to save yourself and you have to be, you have to hit rock bottom to be able to know where it is and then you have to decide if you want to

keep staying down there and drinking and being miserable or if you want to start trying to make the journey and climb back up and get out and try to make some money. The first few steps, one what were they like and then what were they and how did you start to pull yourself out of that because it's horrible. The first step was just acceptance, I think the biggest thing with alcoholism is that it creeps up on you, you don't think you have a problem, you think you can stop, you cannot, unless you try it you cannot stop especially when you're drinking that sort of much.

It's obviously different for all people but I think if you, I didn't think I had a problem, I was drinking 10, 15 a night and it makes you think that you wake up the next morning you feel a bit rough but you think if I wanted to stop I could but I haven't really got anything else going on so I'll just keep going and when I'm ready to start making a change I'll do something about it but I think there just became a point where I just realised that I really can't stop so I had to do something about it.

So the first thing I sort of did was see the psychologist, so I saw a psychologist from 15 to 18 so I had a lot of experience with psychology back then and then booked in with that and then the psychologist I met with was really good, he was more a motivational psychologist so I think it was just by chance that it worked out really well. He was also a psychologist for like AFL footy players and he keeps them motivated and keeps them towards their goals so rather than like a preventative sort of treatment over the

alcoholism he just sort of ignored that and then said why don't you work on this, why don't you work towards something, why don't you give yourself a reason to quit. So rather than the don't do this it was a hey let's replace that with good things? Yeah pretty much because he was also like a professional sort of business psychologist as well so he works with people to try and figure out who you are as a person and what you need out of a career so yeah that was more of the focus on what we did.

We didn't even really talk about the alcohol and that much as well and that was the focus on I think that worked out really well because that was what my core issue was, it wasn't that I have and I think for a lot of people it's not the alcohol that's the issue, it's not the alcohol that is. That's the vice that you're protecting, you're escaping the issue. Yeah that's the habit that you're stuck in that keeps you down from achieving the things that you need to achieve and it's not just alcohol, it can be anything

that you're addicted to that affects you negatively, it can be food, it can be anything really and yeah so we focused on more where I'm going and what I want to do rather than what was holding me back and that made a big difference, that sort of gave me an idea of maybe I can do something, maybe I can do something that's worth doing and one of the analogies he sort of gave me was like you look at all those famous athletes like all those footy players and there's people that are achieving like crazy things like Cam Haynes and Courtney De Walter, I was really big into those sort of things like recently.

What separates those sort of people to us, they're not different, they're not a different species well they might be, there's nothing stopping you from being the best you can possibly be just your mind, just the way you think about it, if you want it enough then you can find a way to get there. So that was a massive, massive help because one of the things he sort of focused on was yeah sort of working, it's this assessment they do, it's called like a Berkman assessment where they give you about 600 questions, it takes a long

time to do it and they ask all these questions in different sort of ways to sort of get who you are as a person and what you need and then they sort of match you up against people that are 100% fulfilled in their career and if you're this sort of person that enjoys these sort of things well this person does this career and they absolutely love it. So that sort of really narrowed it down to where I should put my focus on and one of the things that sort of came up was science so something

I need for myself because I have a sort of obsessive tendency, I need to be continually learning like my issue with working in the supermarket is there's only so much you can learn about putting cereal on a bloody shelf, that's about it and that's why I was never happy there, I just remained stagnant and another thing I needed was a community and I needed to feel like I'm helping people and I'm involved in something worth doing, selling timber was not worth doing in my opinion and being around those sort of, they're not the sort of

people that I want to be around, I don't want to be that person that I was surrounded with in the timber industry and we sort of just after a few sessions just sort of narrowed it down and then you say well have you ever thought about psychology and as soon as you say that oh my god you're kidding me, how did I not figure this out 15 years ago, this makes so much sense so yeah that's sort of how I sort of got onto it. So it was that moment where you're like fuck this is what I should be doing?

Yeah yeah it was pretty much as soon as we sort of talked about for about 10 minutes I'm like yeah this makes perfect sense like I love all that sort of stuff, I'm always reading books about psychology and about how your brain works and all that sort of things just because I enjoy it and yeah I just thought should have figured this out ages ago but I'm glad I didn't in all honesty though because I've been on such a long journey to get to where I am now, if I hadn't have been through everything that I had been through I wouldn't have realised just how perfect it is.

And you wouldn't have appreciated what you're doing now in any way shape or form like you do. Yeah absolutely. So what was that process like from going to seeing the psych for the first time to it's easy to say where you are now because that's effectively where you've gone but talk us through that journey, what it was like, the ups and downs because undoubtedly it wasn't like I want to do psych I'm happy now. Yeah no it was a lot of ups and downs and I think this is what people don't sort of when they

talk about their success stories they don't talk about or highlight as much as how much I failed I struggled so much through the entire process, I tried to lose the weight that's a hard subject to figure out because you can look on the internet and there's a million different ways to do it and then in those million different ways they might be different for you depending on your body type, trying to figure out what I need to do to lose weight was just a nightmare and I got sort of started ticking away at it, remain

consistent get caught up in the stupid fad diets like oh try these don't eat that, try these don't eat that, tried all those and eventually got into a rhythm where I could sort of get the weight down, I think I got to about 110, 105 and then it was just stagnant and then really struggled trying to keep going. Because that motivation would have ebbed and flowed as well. Yeah the motivation goes up and down. When you see the weight coming off and when you see progress it's like sweet I just need to keep doing what I'm doing and then it gets to a point, the law of diminishing returns where that stops, what was that like?

I think because I'd lost the first sort of 15 kilos the obsession ticked in my mind, I was doing some good things, I hadn't done anything good for a long time or what felt like I was doing good for a long time and because I was obsessed with it, I was constantly trying to research and what can I do now, what's the next step and it's that stagnant sort of area where I needed to get past and funnily enough that's when I joined Virtus and I can thank Virtus for the next 30 kilos after that. You're a beautiful man, we facilitated greatness.

Yeah I think I will say Virtus was a big help in being around that community but at the same time it was all me, I did it all. 100%, I think that's the most important part of any behaviour change, you need to one surround yourself with people that want to see you succeed and that will help bring you along and in an environment where you can do so but at the end of the day, it's on you. It's all those little things that you constantly say, just show up, do good things, all those little things that may just be minor comments that you say but they have a significant impact if you take them seriously.

The same for me more than anything and then I hope that spreads a little bit. I think that they have a lot more power and gravity than what people think if you take those little things and then use them in your own development and your own sort of progress. That was always the thing for me, let alone just getting to the gym, the social part of it was always a struggle, I've always been very introverted, I'll only talk when I want to. It's like Lucy at the moment, I don't want to talk to you, alright Lucy.

I wish we as adults could do that right, could just be like hey I don't want to talk to you and everyone would be like yep no worries rather than like you rude piece of shit. It's just the facade that you've got to put on like oh hey how are you, I'm good thanks, what's been going on? Oh not much, same conversation over and over. I don't enjoy that, I never have and I can't even try and pretend to, I'd rather talk on a real in depth sort of basis and it's hard to, I find

it really hard to gauge it with someone else where you go how are you, what do I say, I'm fucking miserable inside, do I tell them that or do I have to give them the socially accepted side? But that's an interesting thing right, it's like well I could argue that if you had that conversation then you're bringing real depth to the conversation straight away but then also there is time and place for small talk and just like the first layer of building connection is that for a lot of people so if we kind of go

and I've been like this in the past and I'm trying to, I've been trying to shift away from it as like I hate small talk, small talk's a waste of time, it's like well no because it allows you to open up and like there's good and bad in everything. Yeah I suppose it's the entry point. Yeah it is the entry point but when you're having the same conversation with the same person that's when it's yeah let's move on. So yeah I think I sort of, that was a big thing I sort of struggled with first coming to Virtus.

Because what had you done training wise prior? I was just at core and I would go and I actually really, I really look fondly back at it, I would go to core about nine, ten o'clock at night just with my brothers. No one was there? No one there, just me and my brothers just mucking around, listening to music, just you know my middle brother he's a personal trainer so he knows, he gave me an idea of what to do and what weights to use and stuff like that and yeah it was just really really good. It only works for so long, doing the same sort of stuff and yeah I had to change it up a bit.

Running? Yeah running, running came down the line at about, I think I got to about 90 kilos. So what do you sit at now? 83. 83 yeah. So you got a 42 kg journey. Yeah I got down to about 76. And then sort of wanted to muscle up a bit and then keep the fat off, put the muscle on. Yeah good. Yeah still haven't figured that out, that's the next goal but yeah got to yeah I think about 90 kilos and then I just needed something different, like I like, I liked the routine of Virtus

and the obsessiveness of Virtus but I sort of, the weight was good but I felt like the physicality was sort of getting stagnant, I just wanted something where I could really really push myself because there's only so much you can do in an hour at Virtus, doing the group training stuff but yeah there was a few sessions where we did a bit of running involved and I liked the mental battle of it, like just the park laps, I think there were a lot of them in the program and I really enjoyed like, I've always had

a competitive streak where I can't, I don't have to be first but I cannot be last and I would just, it's not a good habit to have, you should never compare yourself when you're trying to work in your own development but it's so hard not to do, like I'd see like Big Jordan running around in his legs, just try to, enormous, I'm catching up with him but I'm not going to be miles behind so I'll just try and see how I go around the park lap and just keep up and I really like that battle

in your mind of just keep going because yeah my body's just feels like exhausted but like I can keep going and then I sort of just took that outside of Virtus and sort of did my own accord, started getting into running a bit and then that obsession trigger ticked again, absolutely loved it and then yeah COVID hit and that's what you could really do so I think you were the same, weren't you? Every single one. Every second day I ran during that first lockdown I got the fittest, probably not, yeah probably the fittest I've been

long distance for a long long time back, I'm probably like 15 kilos heavier than I was when I used to run so I think that was brilliant just from a mental health perspective and escape and outlet like yeah I think Coop and I were talking about it on our podcast, we were thinking about signing up for 50k, 50k trail run and there's part of me that dreads it because it just makes me think of pre-season and thinks of training for it but I'm like I just want to be fitter running-wise so it was, I look

at that part of COVID and it was like it sucked but it was brilliant for how many people went from doing no running to going I actually kind of like running and I think this is a Mitch Rowe quote but if you hate running it's probably because you suck at it because you don't do any running yeah and it just ends up being a negative feedback loop. Yeah it's one of those things that I can see why you might hate it at first but if you're in that mindset oh I hate this I'm gonna do

this but I hate this like you're gonna hate it but if you try and think about it positively like I remember when I was first starting to lose weight and I was I thought oh I'll try apparently running is good I might try some running at 120 k's yeah at 120 I reckon I got about 200 meters I thought oh this is shit yeah but if you're 120 k's and you haven't done any running don't yeah probably not there's other ways to start yeah start a bit easier but yeah definitely during COVID getting into the

running was really good one of the biggest things I really liked about it was you can improve your running so quickly if you're consistent yeah all you gotta do is be consistent you don't have to be good at it you can replace that running word with anything yeah yeah if you are consistent you will improve yeah and I think I think that's running was a really good sort of example I guess to get to help with like the mental health sort of things and the like the alcoholism sort of things is I got good at

running just by doing it once or twice a week yeah and then just seeing if I can go a little bit further each time not putting too much pressure on myself running on my own accord not looking at other people's Strava distances or like kilometers and stuff like that we've got guys in here and friends that have gone through the maybe competing and the triathlon stage and I even do it sometimes it's like I used to be able to run a 1500 in this time and now I'm like two minutes slower yeah and you've got

to remove yourself from that and if deleting Strava is the thing delete Strava yeah it can be good to keep you motivated at the same time it'll it'll cut you down but you can't let it cut you down yeah it's just self-awareness thing I think yeah yeah but then yeah running running was always really good in that improve the fitness but it was just that the biggest part of it I love about running is the the mental component it's not about you know like how good you are at running it's like it's how long can

you like keep your mind going because your mind does all the work like your legs your legs know what to do like your autonomic nervous system sort of just keeps it going yeah you can keep taking it over like you might feel it like you might start getting a stitch or something like that but you can keep going yeah you get into a rhythm it's just around and keeping that ticking over yeah and I loved I loved getting into that rhythm when you get to that like perfect spot where you're tired but your mind's feeling

good and you just keep going and going and going and going yeah and yeah I just got really obsessed with it and I was I was getting to I think when I was getting pretty good I was probably getting on up to about 20 25 k's yeah and then the only thing that would stop me then is time I've been doing this two hours I better go okay it's getting late it's getting dark yeah I should probably turn around soon yeah yeah it was good yeah it was really really good really enjoyed like really pushing

that sort of fire and yeah there'd be some days it'd be harder and you have to put on like a like a Dave Goggins podcast to really push you over the line yeah okay was that around the same time you got into listening or paying attention to what Goggins and and um according to Walter and Cam Haynes and those guys who were doing yeah I think I think yeah those I'm I was talking to you a bit about it as well um well I think he's he's still just started popping up on like Joe Rogan's

podcast a bit and he was being talked about and then Cam Haynes and um Courtney Dwalter as well um and then once you like look into them it just keeps appearing on like your social media feed beautiful pixel yeah it's following around the internet it's only probably the only good thing you can get out of you know those algorithms I mean you can be real tactical right like I was talking to one of the boys this morning he's like yeah I want to buy a couch and I was like I'll just google koala couch and

just watch the discounts follow you around the internet for the next two weeks they'll get you they'll get you they can find a way they will um yeah so that was really good yeah um yeah and that sort of got me under there that just sort of reaffirmed all the stuff I did my yeah what did you learn from those people um I think the the big the big ones Courtney Dwalter she's just the tiny little lady she's like beers and nachos and then she'll run a 240 fucking mile race then she she'll look tired

but she's like you know what just keep going you're crazy it's like like how are we the same species like what makes me that's almost 400 k's it's stupid yeah what demons are in her mind to be able to push herself like that like I just I'm absolutely fascinated like what what does it take yeah to be like that what can keep me going like that like we've all been like when everyone knows what like when you get that running when you get to that stage and running where you're just you're in a lot of

pain and you want to keep going but you just think oh no way I'm done yeah how do you like how does she push past like that because I just I find that absolutely fascinating I've always always been interested in that like even more so than the actual running it's just the you know the mental component of it because it's all it's it's predominantly mental it just keeps it keeps you going but yeah yeah I mean there's a physical capacity that obviously you need to an extent but what we can do external to that is

is crazy yeah you've been following Ned Brockman over the last 25 days no so he's running if you haven't seen this guy it's phenomenal so he's running from Perth to Bondi he's trying to beat the record in 40 days so basically 100 k's a day and just watching watching his stories and his wrap-ups of each day and every day it's just like here's a quote you know get after it you know here's the song of the day and you just see videos of him crying and laughing and and like his feet are mangled and his

shins are blowing up and all this stuff's happening and it's just like it's the epitome of the human spirit to be able to just go this all sucks but I've set myself this goal so I'm gonna get it done and you know look on Strava and he's just clocked up another 100 k's just like fuck what a maniac and I think it's phenomenal because we like even what we were talking about before with school and things like that we create like boxes for us as individuals in terms of what we're capable of and what we're

able to do and what we where we might be able to head and you see these people just go fuck the box and just go bang straight through it and go there's this whole world out there unexplored yeah that each one of us can dive into if we really want to yeah I think that's the biggest thing I've learned is that in constructing that box of your capabilities you're only limiting yourself if you think I'm not that kind of person I'm too old to go back to uni or I don't think I don't think I

can ever stop drinking or I'm not much of a runner I'd like to but it's not for me like you're constructing your own limitations stories to tell ourselves exactly if you you know if you compare yourself to others and where what other people are doing then you're just going to hinder yourself but if you if you really put in everything of your own ability and if it's something you want you you'll get at it and you can achieve like I never thought I'd be able to run 20 for 25 kilometers and then the only thing

that stopped me was getting dark yeah I never thought I'd be able to do that and like I think when I went I got into like cycling as well I think the second bike ride I did I thought oh I'll start early see how far I can go I went to the city and back and I was like oh I'm getting on 100 k's now isn't that crazy that you just like go to the city you're back as someone that hasn't jumped on a bike you would be like fuck that it's never gonna happen yeah

like you could run there and back tomorrow if you really wanted to if you really like yeah you might throw up a few times you might need to fall down you might you have to sit down and yeah cry a little bit but if you really want to you can do it and I think that's that's relevant as well to when you're in the depths of anxiety depression despair if you're in the if you're at rock bottom you still have that capacity it's just a lot harder because you're you know in that negative sort of

mind space and you don't think you can get out of it but you really can um let's talk let's talk about that mental health side of things and anxiety and depression and being through it I assume you still go through it yeah ups ups and downs what was it like and what have you learned from it um yeah I think I think the biggest thing is that it's always gonna happen it doesn't matter how good you think you are there's always gonna be mental health issues you gotta know how to deal with it you'll learn

how to do it I've been seeing a psychologist since I was 14 yeah in 15 I'm 29 now I still see a psychologist I haven't touched alcohol for at least a year um they're good um have my ups and downs with that as well yeah recovery but yeah I haven't touched it I'm probably at a point now where I'm really good I don't need it at all um don't have anxiety I'm pretty confident these days um but I still see a psychologist once a month yeah it's it's the most important like we go to the

gym every day or you know try to go every day every day you know you go to sleep at night yeah um you know you work out your body you rest your body and your mind but you don't work out your mind you don't work out you know what's going on in your head and I find that bizarre that there's not much of an emphasis on it and there's a stigma against it like it's fascinating isn't it I I cannot I cannot believe that you know I can't believe it yeah it's it's still still going

on and especially in like men men it's it's heartbreaking to see that you know people go through all these issues and just because you're a man you shouldn't you shouldn't have to talk about your emotions and you just deal with it or you have a beer and all you get over it yeah this whole macho sort of persona of it and it's and it's that that's a massive driving factor for me to get into psychology zone I've been through that and I I took the hard route and I definitely didn't share as much as I

should have I really struggled by myself and it was horrible yeah and I think if I just had the courage to reach out a little bit and I would have met I would have been where I need to be much sooner yeah um so you made a hard journey harder yeah made it made it horrendously harder um yeah that's it is it is of your own accord to try and move out of that sort of space but if you don't let in let anyone in to help you then it's going to be even harder yeah

I've always loved the idea that every problem on earth has a solution if you ask for help no one can help you yeah yeah I think that's the massive that's a massive thing as well and especially with the like the rates of male suicide and like I think everyone everyone would know someone that's you know been through that sort of thing or yeah maybe you know has killed themselves and you just think well what if I said something what are we doing yeah like you know what why didn't you know why didn't ask for help

or you know I could have helped or you know there's all these sort of things where I guess you I just wonder like how do you move forward how do you move forward past this stigma and do you think it's changing I think it is changing there's a lot there's a it's slowly changing um there's a lot more sort of resources out there which is good I think it's easy it's easier now that there's ever been to reach out yeah there's still that stigma there and it still makes it really hard especially not for the

person actually going through the issue but also the people that want to reach out like how do you reach out to someone when they're in the worst place that they could possibly be they just cannot get through the day um they don't they're just not if they're feeling that bad about themselves they probably don't want to admit that you know I'm feeling this bad they don't want other people to know what they're going through um like how do you convince them that it's not wrong for them to feel that way yeah and that that it's

more common than they think and um yeah it's just it's a tough sort of thing to we're obviously not going to fix a mental health crisis in a in a podcast but what what do you think needs to change now you've you've been through it you have that experiential learning from having suffered from depression anxiety for a long time now you're studying psychology and you're seeing different um different elements of society push it forward and different elements of society still holding it back what do you think needs to change slash what would you do I

think I think the stigma of it needs to be addressed I think the stigma of talking about emotions is not a manly thing to do that needs to be addressed and yeah um like I think that can be resolved around community like I think within the Virtus community like I talked to you about a lot of stuff talk to Cooper a lot of stuff and I think it's very open sort of community um where you can share that sort of thing and if it's propagated and people feel welcome within that community they can talk about

it I think I think it happens a lot in footy clubs as well like it's getting infinitely better like we we have a few things that we do at the club and we talk about it and and you know leaders will stand up and share certain things and then we we do it as a group and like I've been playing senior footy for well for 13 14 years now and I've there wasn't any of that back in the day and now it's a very regular thing um and we do it every couple of weeks so

I think it's something that's definitely growing and it's almost like I look at coffee shops and gyms and football clubs as like you know 21st century churches is there there are space for people to to collaborate and connect and do something maybe around a common goal but you know maybe around individual goals like a gym is um and I think the more of these places that we have and the more energy and vulnerability that we can put into them the better the whole society is gonna be yeah yeah I agree especially I think it helps

him that catalyst that you know we're here to work out we're here to go to the gym but let's talk about important shit let's have a chat yeah yeah I think that's really good like footy too you know you can you can involve like one of the most masculine sports and yeah beat each other up out on the field and kick the footy around and then you come and have a chat like what's going on what's actually going on you're right yeah it's it's been pretty phenomenal just to see and share myself but see other

people share and talk about the stuff that's going on yeah and we've got some brilliant local charities starting to grow and build into into organizations that are helping facilitate these things we will have a vertice men's night in a few weeks um make sure you're here but we're gonna be we're gonna be um you know we're about connecting and getting around each other but more so we will open up some opportunities for people to be vulnerable and and kind of create a space where people can where men especially can chat because it's certainly not um

not just a men only issue but it's one that's you know certainly highlighted um in the statistics that men are shit-house at yes expressing themselves and and talking and being vulnerable like they should yeah there's of course issues across the board you know across gender um I think men can help other men with it yeah like I think there's a certain sort of way you can sort of talk about it of course you know the women you can talk to and yeah probably way better than us I find that my friends and girls are way

better at talking issues but yeah um if you can really push and um talk with your guy mates I think that's that's really valuable because you never know what's going on with someone as well and maybe maybe it's just that one day when you ask them you know what's going on you're actually all right like you might get them on a day where they think oh maybe I can open up yeah and even if you don't get them on it if on day where they're like I don't want to talk like a week later when

they're feeling better and they might hit you up say hey let's go let's go for coffee I do need to chat or yeah um I think it's it's one being there oh it's one asking for you know what can I do but it's another thing just people knowing that you're there yeah I think that's a big thing for people that really struggle as well is they don't want to be a burden on someone they don't want to unload all their issues and then for you to not know what to say and go oh that's [

__ ] yeah yeah all right well do you want a hug or like yeah like it's hard in that you want to ask you want to be there you want to care for them but you got to know what to say yeah um and I think there is an emphasis on telling people to speak up yeah there's not enough evidence ever yeah there's not a not a sorry not enough emphasis emphasis on um on what to say on what to say and the biggest piece of advice I can say don't say anything just listen yeah

let them say what they need to say and then if they sort of slow down a bit and just tell me more yeah if they're talking about a specific thing yeah ask them questions like show interest yeah and show that you're listening don't don't be on your phone don't look away don't say them in the eye here's what you need to do look at them direct on and like really show that you're engaged don't try and solve their problems like yeah you're not I'm not qualified like you want to qualify to solve their problems for

them you don't you don't know what's going on in their head you don't know how they feel about things you don't know what what else is going on like just listen to them let them vent yeah that's what most people need yeah like a place to be at an event and like express how they feel and then you know you might be able to get to a point where you can sort of say well I've you can sort of relate on sort of similar things and I've been through this like this sort of helped me

but you don't want to you don't want to like direct the conversation to then talking about you and just you like it it is on that person that they've reached out to you you need to be really respectful that they've allowed you in on something that is maybe causing them unbelievable emotional turmoil it's it's yeah it's really it's really hard to be like a good listener I think and that's what you gotta do you listen yeah yeah I think it just needs more emphasis more emphasis on that yeah for sure and I think it's universally

I look at it and kind of there is nothing more universal than struggle and that like and the human suffering like that is it's a human condition so I think yeah if we can understand that for a moment reflect on it and go okay well I know that everyone's gonna struggle it and suffer it at times I want to be a beacon or I want to be a safe place so that people can express that that suffering and that struggle yeah it's really this day and age as well where everyone's everyone's putting up their their

best the best quality picture of like oh my that's perfect I'm good yeah all social media which I think is a poison by the way I think also that's not good for you I think connectedness is good but like Instagram when you're putting up photos it's a lot it's a long conversation right yeah we could do a whole podcast getting away from that and just surrounding yourself in an authentic community of real people that you can be real with that's where you gotta start because when I first when I was you know at Bowen's I

was around people that they weren't mindfulness and you know psychology they're just they're the wrong people to be around if you if that's not you know if they're happy living that sort of way that's good for them but that's not I personally don't think for my for my own benefit I didn't I shouldn't have been around those people coming to Virtus and being around people that are doing good things and being the best that they can that's where you need to start you need to be around good people surround yourself around good people that you

know are gonna be willing and receptive to to listen yeah it's amazing the progress you can make when the people around you want the same things yeah that's one of the things that this place has taught me more than anything it's just you know like this like there's days we made this place but there's days where I'll come be fucked doing anything and I'll just come in and chat to a few people in 20 minutes later I'll be like I'm on and the only thing that shifted was I just ran myself with good people you

know I'm so much of a better version of me when I'm in spaces like this and I you know I'm awake and I'm up and about I'm connecting with people so for the people that are struggling find a space like this doesn't be Virtus but a football club a netball club a sporting club in some way shape or form like I love that the reflection that sport has on life the ups and downs of failure failures the triumphs all that kind of stuff and at the end of the day you do it with a bunch

of people and if you don't play sport it's okay there's you know many other spaces yeah you can do that yes let's talk about your studies because I love how excited you get talking about it yeah what's been and part of this conversation is going from not studying for 10 years not really trying at high school to now doing a bachelor of psychology which you know my sister's gone through it is not the easiest thing in the world what's the last two years of starting stopping and then getting started again what's that taught you and

what have you learned um yeah so it has been a bit of a struggle to get here I've always been I've always been like a creature of habit like I don't I really struggle doing new things and anything that's unknown I've always really struggled with that I get a lot of like anxiety about it but it was just sort of trying I tried at COVID and I did the best I could but I realized I had to pull back you know it's not I wasn't happy with it but I just took what I could from

it and um learned from that um which then you know gave me a bit of a leg up the next time I tried so the um the next time I tried I really good life lesson right there yeah the next time I tried I went in so so COVID I got two weeks in yeah they got shut down all online and then the next time I tried um I was I got I was really struggling with alcohol again so the alcohol came back um um just couldn't stop just constantly drinking and um I was just

in a habit of avoiding everything just sticking to this place that I know of being at home drinking yeah not having to deal with anything um so that I really struggled I just couldn't commit to uni and I thought I'm gonna have to put it off again I can't I just can't do this right now I need to sort myself out um so that was really really really difficult because I've struggled with alcohol for so long and it just it never ends yeah recovering alcoholic I'll tell you now it never ends yeah it's never you're

gonna struggle for the rest of your life and I've I still do every now and then but now I've got a good handle on it and yeah I know when the triggers are gonna come up I know what to do when they come up yeah um and the key point is there is persistence like I've been around a lot of other alcoholics that are in recovery as well and you're gonna fall down you're gonna fuck up you're gonna you're gonna drink again it's gonna happen yeah you're gonna know what to do you know how to

get yourself back up don't throw the baby out of the bath water when it does yeah yeah when you fall when you do fall over don't just go and fuck it yeah yeah yeah you gotta yeah keep trying yeah um because you're always gonna fail you're gonna fail at everything you do you're just gonna keep trying um and then yeah 2022 so this year I um so my last my last drink was the 26th of february um which was a couple days before I was gonna start uni so I really left at the last minute

um but I really really put put the emphasis on myself like this is it like if I I don't wanna I'm I'm gonna get really do some damage to myself I feel like I can't commit to this like it's gonna cost me a lot of money again if I'm gonna have to pay for another year I'm not actually doing it because there's only so much you can defer and then they're like well if you do this or not what are you doing yeah um but I really I put in everything this time I reached out

to like the counselors at Swinburne said you know I'm going through you know alcohol withdrawal and yeah um I really need some help and they were really good they're awesome they've got all the facilities there like um had a meeting with this guy named John he's like the guidance counselor and he um yeah helped me through it and you know helped me set up my timetable and made and he kept me accountable and he would email me once a week and tell me how you're going you're good okay and he he got to know me

a little bit in a few weeks and you know don't bullshit me tell me how you're actually going don't give me the face value I want to hear what you're actually going yeah that was really good like I didn't have to pay anything for that he just he just did it it was really good um so that really helped um mostly because I I I took the chance to reached out and I got my it worked out brilliantly and really came back so helped me get into the swing of things and um yeah I've been

all over it since yeah having I think I've got the extra motivation now with the alcohol is that I've made it so far I've done so well I want to see how far I can keep going it's that running analogy again like I'm I'm at 20 k's now how much further can I keep going and it's it's getting easier that's awesome um and that's that's such an important like lesson there is like you reach out for help and they didn't have to help you but they they did and um one of the things I said

to our we had had a chat with our interns the other day about like career and where you're going and and behavior change what you're doing and stuff I'm just like everyone wants to help like in a nutshell you know I like thinking everyone but let's just go with everyone everyone wants to help and if you stick your hand up and say I need help with this and it might be you know reaching out to someone in a job you want to go hey can I spend some time with you or can can I have

a chat about what you're doing or you know if you're starting a business talking to someone that's already started a business or if you're starting a uni degree and you're recovering alcoholic and you go hey I need some help with this people want to help like you know very few people just go like nah fuck yeah um you know at face value I think everyone wants to help so it's a really really important lesson there is just ask for help yeah um let's talk about future so what does the next couple of years look like

from a study perspective and then what are your what are your ambitions for your career now so I'm I'm I've been very confident this year so I've done I've done really well so far um first semester second semester I've gone pretty well um I'm having no issues with it awesome I've always been once I apply myself I can I can really learn quickly and now that I'm comfortable in it like the sky's the limit I can I'm really confident so next year's we're going all full time I'm going to be doing extra in between the

studies um so I'm going to be doing like an extra certificate for and during like the winter period I'm going to try and catch up from this first year as well and then so study all the way through um which would be good because I I really enjoyed it and I actually I actually hated the break between yeah like what am I doing yeah what uni student would say that oh man I remember uni I was like yes seven weeks off and now I look back and like dude you could have gotten the degree done

twice as fast yeah an idiot yeah I absolutely love it so I'm gonna just do as much as I can and we'll stick with it and still a long way to go still got at least three or four years yeah so the goal is to get into clinical psychology so that's three more years of the bachelor yeah honours and two years masters minimum yeah um but that yeah that's all possible and for sure yeah that's that's the plan is there an end goal is there an end game that you want to be um you know

you want to be clinical practice or you want to be in research or um so I'm it's all pretty much open-ended at the moment because I'm loving all of it at the moment I can't really narrow down where I want to go so I asked you I asked you before your favorite subject I fucking love it all yeah it's the best I just even even the stuff that you think like they I don't know why they do this in uni like the lectures and stuff they're gonna oh you're gonna hate this oh no you're all

about it like don't talk about it like that like yeah like we just pre-frame something and it becomes a self filling yeah and then like I'm the other students I'm around they're like oh yeah I hate it shit I'm like I fucking loved it yeah I don't know what you're talking about even like statistics is one that they don't like in psychology I had a statistics I love it I really enjoyed it I'm not good for statistics yeah I'm it just gives you a framework of how you should be looking at things yeah I actually

really enjoyed it um but yeah I think yeah overall I think yeah down clinical psychology so I'd like to yeah um you know do you know help people um clinically um but I'd also like to get into drug and alcohol rehabilitation yeah um so that's that's that's difficult I'm gonna do it super for mental health it's like a it's normally a six-month course but if you're doing a um undergrad they can dance it down to a six-week yeah um and because there's such a demand out there at the moment yeah they put you in placement

and I've heard that you know once you're in placement you can get a job really quickly so I'd love to get into that and I've got I've got the experience of going through my own sort of um issues with alcohol I think I can really help other people because um that's that's something that unless you've been through it you've got no idea what it is it is the hardest thing you could possibly go through like it's gonna sound it's gonna sound arrogant but losing losing 50 kilos fucking easy yeah like like getting past alcohol it's

just relative yeah yeah it was it was so hard and unless you've been through it like it's you you just cannot explain how bad it is um I think Euphoria season two at the end um Ru's talking to a sponsor there at the diner yeah he does this like two and a half minute monologue of what it's like and he talked about how um like he would steal things and um uh he like um rob people attack people he'd leave his family and like he'd do all these horrible things yeah you know just to continue

the addiction and it's that was really accurate like that like hit a nerve and watch that yeah um that's that's one thing that's really hard is trying to help an addict because you can't you cannot help an addict you can just be there for them when they're ready to address it and try and make it better that's when you can be there for them but it's the hardest thing ever hardest thing to go through it but also to see someone go through it as well like I've seen I've seen some people go through it and

you know I've got you know people around me they're going through it at the moment because you want help but you you know that it's it's on them it's on them um and yeah it's it's such a hard thing to do and I'd like to be there to be able to help other people because right it's this sort of camaraderie you can you can sort of gain with people um I didn't go to as many meetings as I should have but I did go to a few and it's that that catalyst of the meeting you

build that trust you open up yeah like the footy club like vertice you can talk to people um like-minded people that are going through something similar and you can work on it together I mean I'd love to I'd do that for other people awesome even yeah I'm I cannot wait for placement yeah it's just really exciting really exciting love your work we've taken almost an hour so mate welcome welcome thank you so much um for sharing for coming on um I'm stoked we finally got to have this chat um is there any resources or anything

you would like to share that you think would be helpful I think in terms of like the mental health and you know alcohol addiction is just talk about it yeah like if you've got a close mate talk to them about a pull my side like saying I'm really struggling and even especially the alcohol side of things maybe just have a think about your own use of alcohol like it can creep up on you and like you won't know until when you cannot stop like have a think about your own drinking even call out your other

mates on drinking don't go don't be aggressive about it but just get them to think about it like yeah it's we want it to be a choice we want it to yeah have the space to be able to go now I don't want to drink today yeah it's such a insidious thing that can sort of and it's crept into culture and it's coming out of it now so many non-alcoholic sort of versions coming out now but it's yeah it can be a huge sort of detriment and you know it's obviously everyone's choice yeah um everyone

can you know choose a drink if you can you know that that word's most control though you need it to be a choice yeah yeah but it's not for me um and I think if you if you're in the similar sort of mindset of like you can't keep it under control maybe it's not for you I can tell you the best thing I've ever done is not drinking the amount I've been able to achieve not drinking um and yeah just the other thing as well um being really respectful if someone reaches out to you just

don't talk over them just listen to what they're going to say keep them talking keep them you know keep them on the subject and let them vent as much as they need to and yeah I think that's the biggest important part as well and yeah you can't do it on your own love your work more people you let in the better you're a star thanks thanks Cohen no worries