Automatically transcribed, so expect the odd wrong name or word.
should we do the intro? should we? should we? and in this moment I swear we are infinite. let's do this come on. mounting! it's too damn hot for a penguin to be just walking around three, two, one, eagle. are these two doctors? I'm afraid so. and here we go Simon Cooper what an intro back in the back in the house back in the podcast chair welcome yeah thank you more comfy chairs than we have had previously it's been a hot minute as and I think an ode to the 2020 version of the podcast where you
were co-host and King Dick so to speak well that's the old intro it's a little bit long for this format I think yeah that was a bit fun well sweet memes mmm yeah doing it from home in the midst of lockdowns is this more intimate on a chair next to you it's nice to me you can hear yourself yeah I'm getting used to these these headphones but it's more intimate we can like glorious what's been happening tell the the people have you've been heavily requested to get you back on the podcast and you're going to
be coughing like like just the the throat clear loves the throat clear does Simon Cooper but you've been heavily requested to get you back on the podcast so tell the people what's been happening hmm yeah it's been a it has been a hot minute since we've been on the podcast 2020 what are we ended nearly the end of 2022 crazy spin it's been two years yeah yeah not in the vertice sphere oh you're in spheres fear not in there in the core of it anymore moved into a role with the outdoor education group work was
working within the client delivery space for a while and so working with with schools in in Victoria to develop and deliver at direct programs which is a great a big change it was it was a tough decision to move away that was an interesting kind of decision-making process but ultimately made the decision to move into that that area and then more recently moved into the risk management space head of the risky boys head of the risky boys hashtag it's not fun unless it's safe that's my uh yes my catchphrase whenever I enter a room like
obviously I've been was intimately involved in the decision-making process and kind of seen your growth and the changes you've made over the last couple of years and very proud of you by the way but give give us an insight into that decision-making process and what it was like because effectively you've taken the best job in the world and said no to it shifted to something else yeah but like you know you obviously do a presentation called the power of change which if we get enough thumbs up will will present to the vertice family at some
point again but change is difficult making big life decisions like that don't come along very often so what went into that decision and how did you make it yeah it was it was it was extremely challenging and you know I feel like sometimes I felt that I'd done things in the wrong order you know you hear stories about people who have done the corporate thing and then they get sick of it and then they move into like their passion and you know pursue that and I almost went the other direction and and you know fell
into this role and this environment at vertice where I loved it and I love the people and we're able to build something pretty special when you fit in really well so so do we dropped and then but but at the same time I hadn't explored this other area of of business and my own development so that was but ultimately you know prompted the change and prompted the decision to move away and to you know expand myself into a business and an environment that I wasn't familiar with and maybe not comfortable with so the decision-making process
was very much around what gaps I saw in my own capacity and capability and how can I pursue that in an environment that I hadn't experienced before well gave you the awareness to explore those gaps because it's very easy for a lot of us to put blindsides up around gaps in our capabilities but you almost we didn't you almost you know most you did actively sort out just confirming information and sort out ways to identify what those biases were and then you dove straight into it yeah part of it part of it was drawn from
the business studies that I was doing alongside my work at Virtus and you know in a different business in a different environment you utilize different skill sets and different bases of knowledge so I guess I wanted to explore some of those things that I wasn't exploring here at Virtus and the other part of it around my own personal development was I guess just not having up yet not having opportunity to explore areas of myself that were hidden and also just to I guess throw myself into something a new challenge there's always I mean the work
that we're doing at Virtus was meaningful and there was a lot of space to grow and to develop the team and you and the organization but the it's a different world to what you've shifted into it was a corporate world can tend to be definitely and you know that the shift that I made has meant that I've had to learn not just a new skill set but also learn a completely new industry and you know it means that I'm showing up differently to my work I mean in within a different community now even though you
know they're still heavily involved within the Virtus community but I'm also you know I'm a bit more removed now and trying to show up at OEG in a way that you know I find meaningful and also figuring that out what that looks like yeah within a new team and a new role and you know leadership looks different the work looks different the the processes and systems within the business looks different so you know becoming accustomed to that and then also I guess part of part of the work that I'm really interested in is developing organizations
that high performing so trying to look for improvement within the existing business model at OEG and how can we do better work so my transition into this new role in the risk management department has meant that you know I'm leading a team and quite a young team and a growing team so it's meant that you know I'm able to kind of lead them in a direction that I'm really passionate about and empowering them to do work that they're really find meaningful and interesting and makes ultimately makes it change or makes a difference in you know
the broader circles that we work in well that what were the main main few differences that you notice and I guess it's what been 18 months now since you shifted into that role it shifted shifted across that faithful day April April 12th I think there you go what were the main differences that you noticed and have noticed over the last 18 months between bigger business developing there's obviously a lot more factors at play in terms of like you know economic factors and size and shape of a business versus small you know small business like Virtus
where you effectively we effectively have control over everything that happens yeah yeah definitely and you know going into OEG when I did was interesting because we're still in the midst of COVID so you know I moved there in April July we we shut down all operations I was working like half my hours maybe yeah that had was there a bit of emotional damn it I was so you know panda to him because he'd love that one I do love that one it's one of my faves moving into the organization for two months and then effectively
being at home working half my hours trying to you know find meaning in the work that I was doing in this new role and trying to connect with the people in my team and within the organization was really challenging and and even in normal times the organization was a lot bigger so there's a lot more that there are more systems at play and there's you know it's a slower moving machine than Virtus which was small and agile and we could as you said we had control everything on the side of a hat seriously we could
pivot into whatever we wanted it's where you know OEG we're a big organization and how many people for context I think we're probably sitting around four hundred four hundred so and vertices shifted between like the five and fourteen fifteen over the years so so there's completely different yeah eyes and shape and so it's becoming it's becoming work for me it was being a becoming accustomed to being a smaller cog in the machine rather than being at the driver's wheel yeah so that was a little bit that was had frustrating moments and you know waiting for
things to happen but as per my last email email politics I do not envy that part of the job yeah but I think also you know it's it's another skill yeah learning how to communicate effectively with different stakeholders and people at different levels within the organization and externally as well with clients so I'm excited now that I'm more removed from the external stuff and looking internally and seeing how we can improve processes and systems and then develop the high-performing teams that I'm really interested in so a lot of and there's a lot of transfer still
you know from what we were doing at vertice into this new endeavor and this new pursuit a lot of the skills a lot of the you know directives I guess well not even directives objectives that we had yeah still carry over and still give me meaning yeah what you use that word a few times meaning like what does that look like both in a personal and professional setting for you at the moment has that adapt has adapted and change of last 18 months yeah I think when I was at vertice the meaning was it was
very heavily focused on community and the people within it and me moving away was in some parts it was like a selfish move you know I moved away from it is better when you're in it maybe the the reason I moved was for my own development and so the meaning kind of shifted away from a collective into more of a self and that's evolved it is evolving continues to evolve as I've transitioned in this new role the meaning has gone more from me becoming competent and capable at my role into how can we develop a
team that is really competent and high-performing and a team of leaders as well so you know developing leadership within the team and within the people that I want to serve and that the focus I guess shifts from the community and the people we want to serve to maybe more insular into a team and those are the people that I'm serving as well as and you know I've talked a lot about already about developing team and less about so that's like the adaptive perspective and less it like the actual technical part of the role which is
risk management yeah so I guess helmets on yeah is no campsites under trees etc that way yeah listen yeah so I'm still learning all those technical technique there's a lot of technical gaps in my knowledge about risk management especially within the operational risk arena that we operate in I guess that's a good place to be you'd rather be going you know you're adaptively capable because of all the work we've done in the past around you know changing changing the business and and building our own capacities whereas the technical stuff and for those that aren't aware
of these two things basically look at problems there's adaptive problems and technical problems and an adaptive problem is one that doesn't have a clear path to us to a solution you have to evolve and adapt to overcome whatever the problem is and then the technical problem is one that has a clear you know step-by-step process to it to a solution so so I think the you'd rather be in a space where you need technical advice and the need adaptive advice and and being capable of solving adaptive problems is all around your own capacities and your
ability to look at a problem in this how we realize and and you know evolve hmm yeah yeah for sure and you know when we at vertice we spoke about when we were hiring people we'd hire people who have leadership capability and you know ability to communicate well and does everyone have capability of being a leader sure yeah yeah that wasn't a way to wait it wasn't meant to be a way to question it's a good question kind of comes back to the you know nature versus nurture can we develop leadership is leadership skill yeah
so is leadership a skill or is it a a trait I think it's probably a bit of both yep hmm yeah I think I mean leaderships a lot about willingness and desire as much as it is around capabilities yep yep and then there's you know technical technical skill leaders who are very good at one thing they're an expert in that technical proficiency but then there's also you know people leaders who are good at empowering others and giving them the abilities and skills to lead kind of leader is Simon Cooper I'm definitely not very good at
anything I'm I'm okay at a lot of things but not very good at I so I self-deprecating I definitely self identify as a general there's so much potential in you like potential yeah I'm a self-identified generalist and proud to be a generalist I and I think that might come back to also my inability to know exactly what I wanted to do growing up yeah so you know and one of the considerations that I had when moving into this this new role was do I want to become a risk manager like a risk person but again
the the considerations for me were other skills transferable to different industries to different organizations and will the the role itself will it force me to grow in my Mike forced me to grow my container to be a leader and to to step into leadership and I guess grow some of those softer skills adaptive skills yeah which I think it will and you know I'm already I'm only is four weeks so a month a month a month is head of the risky boys hmm so yeah I'm excited to see where this leads and you know the
change that we can make within the organization yeah you mentioned transferable skills like what transferable skills have you been able to utilize from your travels because obviously spend some time in the UK which is fairly important part of the story you are shifted into doing what was your master's called master of business so it's just a master of business master of business into working at vertice how and what what skills and how have you been able to transfer those to what you're doing now because they have you kind of the similarities but what you're doing
is very different yeah I think again there's adaptive skills and technical skills if we generally bundle them into the two categories then you know the technical skills would be looking like project management which is what I actually specialized in in my degree so that skill set is definitely transferable between you know any but yeah any industry any organization you use your ability to manage projects and then interpersonal skills communication ability to communicate effectively what have you learned about communication since shifting into this role because one of the things that we're very fortunate fortunate with vertice
is everyone that is in this environment wants to be here and and is here for a particular reason you know there's some clear self actualization as a self actualization that they're trying to achieve so relatively easy to communicate with and to help lead towards the result thereafter what did you learn about communication and and this is something that we've worked on a lot over the last few years what's something you learn about communication moving into these couple of roles you've been in an oeg yeah it's an interesting question I think communication is very context driven
so the context of vertice is very different to oeg particularly within because it's an organ bigger organization there's I guess layers of hierarchy so you know seniors there's executives then there's you know heads and then senior managers so being able to deliver messages in an effective way to just two simple senior people yeah but also then transferring that message to people who maybe work working out in the field and there's different types of people in this organization you know there's there's business people it there's business people who you look after the finances and accounting and
HR people and culture and then there's also but we're an outdoor education organization so there's a lot of outdoor headers who you know have grown up in the field leading groups in the outdoors yeah and there's nuances with that and there's a different language and there's a different tone so there's there's definitely dissonance between the two but and one of the challenges has been and will continue to be trying to meet in the middle and deliver messages in a way that is tailored to the different types of people in the organization yeah so like for
example feel the field team would rarely check their emails so there's no point in sending out a group email to people who yeah you know they're out of reception for five days of the week yeah so looking at different different modes or methods of communication has been really important and then I guess within my my realm which is now the risk team that is based out of the head office in Burwood we are still figuring out how to best communicate our messages to people because we look at the whole organization we also look at we're
a national organization so we are based in different states so and the way that you know people operate over in Western Australia is different to how we operate in Victoria so well that's my alarm to drink water well this is a perfect opportunity it's clean it's cold and that's what I call high quality is cool great timing yeah there's a button for it and everything mate I got buttons for everything actually that's not true I got eight buttons we've used five or yeah cool so yeah communication is is you know is a universal skill it's
one that is very context driven there's principles that you come back to regardless of context but there's definitely nuance to it and you know you have to be emotionally intelligent enough to be able to communicate well with others you mentioned before about specialists versus generalists and that you're you're leaning into being a generalist what does that look like and how did you build the self-awareness to go you know what I don't necessarily want to or feel like it's gonna serve me to specialize in something right now I just don't think I've really ever cared enough
about one thing to dive deep enough into it to become a specialist yeah and I've been thinking about a bit lately because I'm reading a book called range by David Epstein which is listening keep writing good things about generalists versus specialists and it definitely makes the case it's biased well not biased but the the findings in the book lend itself to being a generalist there's more kind of carryover and transferable skills and I think for myself yeah never never cared enough about a single thing I have a lot of interests so you know dipping my
toes into lots of different things and seeing how I can apply them to my real world problems and finding that you know having all those different interests will enable me to problem-solve better yeah it gives you more tools in your toolbox gives you more experiential learning it gives you more opportunities to look at the world from diff through different lenses to then better solve problems better communicate better connect sure do you find it because to give you some context we just sat down with the in bunch of the interns and talk through behavior change and
talked about values and and self-awareness and and the understanding of how to make good decisions and things like that do you think there are times where you'll need to lean into being a specialist in certain things or is it just that you're almost like the you lean into learning enough about a thing to best make decisions and you can move on to the next thing yeah I think I think for me it's having a enough knowledge to get by so if we use my current situation as an example where I mean this this risk management
role so I'm going to have to have a base level of knowledge about the principles or the foundations of risk management yeah and pair that with the knowledge that I have of the organization and of outdoor education and again after education not my background so I'm coming in as a person with these this this skill set these this generalist knowledge coming into an organization and having to level up in the context specific knowledge but then also having a team of people around me who are specialists yeah they're there there's people in my team who have
been working in risk management for years or have a really deep understanding of experiential outdoor learning so they're the ones that I'll defer to yeah when I don't have that knowledge and then my role is you know empowering them or enabling them to do their job really well or giving them the tools that they need to do their job really well you're mostly conduit to goodness yeah the human glue to close and distribute you include the human glue stick for me maybe more like what was that glue is sitting price like it was a cool
clag how's that for a flash back drear still exists surely surely remember my music Billy Madison your slippy is just sitting there like gross yeah look gross so what's what is the now that you kind of shifting into that risk management role what is what are your growth areas both personally and professionally that you're looking to level up to continue to be able to contribute not only to your team but then also to to the world yeah I think the the risk management knowledge I'm looking forward to upscaling in that and learning more about the
the base principles of risk management as well as you know the the specific nuances that come with operational risk within the outer ed space yeah and I guess also thinking about how that will transfer to future roles or future organizations and then I'm really passionate and really interested in and again building the team into this high-performance machine which is a desirable place to work within the organization you know we're creating our own culture within the team and I guess also it's because it's a fairly new team in terms of people coming in and there's been
a bit of coming and going so figuring out how we work best together what our what are our principles and our values that we will kind of use as a base to then expand into the organization and and I guess increase oegs risk maturity and and through that one of our projects will be around education and building up the the education of the field teams risk management and so essentially essentially I want to make ourselves redundant in the space yeah what are the what are the frameworks or what are the resources that you like leaning
on to to build that team and to build that team craziness because I guess from my perspective I love the love the nuance and the the context generation that you need to build a team and to create team craziness and to effectively get a group of people with maybe shared interests or shared understanding you know all paddling in the right direction like that fascinates me being part of sporting teams and being part of Virtus here and being part of community they're all iterations of team so yeah what are things that you're doing and have lent
on to help build that and build and and ensure there's gonna be successful long-term it's a good question because there are so many resources and so many people and books and things and front frameworks out there that you can lean on and it's almost just picking one and rolling with it committing to and culture can be so ambiguous right I want I want to build culture it's like okay what does that mean yeah and that's you know we will as a team we will start from that question like what do we want what's our mission
for the team what does winning look like for us questions that you know that we have you and I have used in the past at Virtus and that we've learned from our mentors and coaches in the past so you know I used some questions in a conversation the other day that came from cam Schwab what does it look like how we know yep and you know what does this role expect of me what do I expect of the role so it's almost just me figuring out how I want to show up in the work in
my work and in my team yeah taking bits of inspiration from different different mentors that I've had in the past or books or frameworks and then kind of not just using one but taking inspiration from all of them yeah I mean it's phenomenal like lesson to to be at and for you to be able to share with your team and then for everyone listening to be able to go well everything I learned everything I learned no matter what I'm doing is a usable skill for down the track right like how long ago did we go
to that cam Schwab presentation and obviously we we get his emails and stuff but it would have been three four four you five years ago maybe yeah 2018 probably yeah so we're looking on four years now and like his bookmarks still up on the wall over there and I look at that and and there's still something I come back to but there's almost hundreds of of tools that we now have in our yep in our toolbox to be able to go alright well this is what fits in this situation and one of one of my
most overused sentences is you need to read this book or like yes this book articulates this brilliantly but how do you I guess how do you package all those things to or how do you order order them so you can lean on them when you need to yeah and this is boy a challenge of mine that I've had in trying to filter through what what I really want to focus on and what I want to use bit of journaling has helped and you know putting my thoughts on on paper to try to identify what my
problem is on and off not not really not really it's something that I have been meaning to you know revisit yeah I've been meditating a bit and a boy what is your meditation practice look like at the moment I use an app called balance good which I think you posted about a while ago I use it about six times I haven't touched it since but guys free is I get random I was I was using it as a initially if this is a few weeks ago I was using it as a tool to get to
sleep because I was struggling to get good sleep so I was using as a tool to get to sleep and then since I've been just doing daily meditations 10 15 minutes not long yeah but it's enough time for me to clean my head a little bit and then come when I come I find that when I come back to the task it enables me to filter things and focus more easily yeah that's been really useful and yeah it's coming back to I guess questions I find that I I was thinking about this the other day
around what I want to be known for and I want to be known as someone who asked really good questions so in the work that I'm doing I'm trying to think what are the best questions that I can ask myself and my team that will help to inform the direction we want to go in and how we want to be as a team so you know and through the journaling that I've done over the past few years and all the development work that we've done questions from Cara Miller and Logan Goldberg they have definitely helped
inform me questions like what does winning look like for the team what does what does it feel like to be a part of the team question how do we want to be useful yeah to others what do you need but don't have what do we need but don't have yep so what constitutes a good question so if you could build a framework into question asking good questions the Simon Cooper question framework what would it look like that's a great question tick I think what constitutes a good question is something that addresses a core belief or
value something that uncovers that and maybe bring shines a spotlight on it and brings it into question or and again questions are context-specific so if I'm asking you know how can I be useful that's a silly question unless it's directed in a specific one I think questions can be context-specific but then always have to be right like sure if you ask someone the question of what do you need but don't have mmm context like avoiding context it's a great way to build self-awareness and to build understanding around who you are what you need so you
can ask someone that and they can say I need a rest or I need I need some food or I need to train or I need to build some consistency or I need some sleep then it kind of takes takes the the work lens out or it takes the training lens out or it takes you away from a particular putting left what do you need you don't have and it allows you to almost figure out what's most important yep and you know we talked we talked about the Maslow's hierarchy of needs before and if we
if the answer is why I need food on the table then we're probably not gonna be able to spend much time building question around questions around self-actualization when really all we need is safety and security no so yeah I think context is really important when we're trying to elicit a specific result but if we're trying to build awareness it's almost like context can can put blinders on yeah it's a great point I think questions help to unpeel layers like an ogre like a nut like an onion or an ogre both a little Colby yeah I
think a good question can be something that well a question is off is not often in isolation right like it's it's then followed up by an additional question so you know there's a I think it's a concept within human centered thinking or design thinking about like the five whys so you ask a question why what why are you doing this or why does this matter whatever and then you ask the why five times and it kind of unpeels layers and gets deeper and deeper to the core reason or belief that you're trying to examine so
the question about you know what do you need that will often bring up the first thought or the first need that someone has but then if you follow up with additional questions then you can get deeper and there might be a hidden desire or hidden belief that is the thing yeah well it's almost like we could always ask you those questions about why you shifted from totally small business corporate right it's like well you wanted to it see what the corporate world was like he's like the first layer and see if I get let's see
if I can peel back some layers for a second layer is like is to be able to to grow and discover who you are and what you need and then third one is to build your capacity outside of that what would the next layer be yeah so then why do I want to have that capacity yeah to you know show up to the people that I love and in a way that is true and meaningful yeah and useful why do you want to show up to people you love in a way that's useful and meaningful
because that is something that I value and believe in I guess and that's probably a value of mine you know yeah connection to people and inherently all layers removed it makes the world a better place it makes your world a better place yeah yeah and that's also you know a question that's a process that we've followed in the past to uncover values values yeah yeah it's true yeah yeah why if this then what if this then what yeah and you peel back yeah we spoke about values isn't a fair bit with the interns before and
I think one of the most impactful things you can do as a human being to uncover meaning and cover purpose is to get really clear on what your values are because then every decision you make every every question you ask yourself every almost every action you take can be can be guided by the things that you value most and that are most important to you sure has have your values changed or evolved over the last 18 months definitely and I was actually just thinking of you when you were saying that because you've gone through over
the last you know three or four years a an evolution of your identity in your life right becoming a dad and the business has evolved and you know your identity as an athlete has changed and still holding on to it forever and I'm the same you know like I'm going to be a father in Oh catch out of the bag four months maybe fuck window four months exactly today yeah it's so exciting how's that it's crazy so you know and my identity will shift it will definitely shift over the next six to twelve months it's
such a weird change man so excited to watch you guys through it yeah I am as well and I'm excited to see you know Sally Ann evolve into a mother and you know she's going to be late at it so and you know and so my values and our values have will change you know I sure that I will value family a lot more and like I said before connection is such an important thing to me and that's a strong value and you know service is a really strong value of mine you know I want
to be in service to others and to my community and to people so my idea of service will shift it was going to shift from you know service to my work into the broader community and it will I'm sure it will go it will contract to service to my unborn child one little potato yeah yeah so yes I'm excited to see how how it will evolve and change and it will be an interesting you know introspection to go through in another six months it is such a big change and it's such a big shift and
I don't think that we as as man as dads talk about it enough and talk about the show what it what impact it has on our identity and on our on our value system and on our belief system because like I don't I look I look at I've seen how like and this is with my own biases with my blinkers on but I've seen how my thoughts and beliefs and values have adapted and changed over the last few years but I don't think being a dad is necessarily changed me it's just shifted my focus to
certain things and it's kind of elevated the importance of certain parts of my life and and you know priority shift right like so that's a big change so when when you talk talk to me about the process of you you finding out your dad and what those few days were like from a you know from headspace perspective and from a thoughts beliefs like what did it do to you initially yeah I think there was no light bulb or lightning strike moment yeah people talk about that and I haven't felt that at all no anyway it's
just like it's almost like you're building layers of love and connection and stuff yeah and you know with with Sal and I we we've been ready for this for a while and it's a very natural evolution of our relationship and you know I've been together for so long now and we've been married and that shift has probably been bigger that the experience that I've had shifting from a partner or boyfriend to a husband has been pretty significant and you know we've Sal and I have talked about this and you know it's much more meaningful that
it's just a word or a title or it's a yes title of husband but it is so meaningful to both of us and it is so much more it's so powerful in how we show up to one another now and you know so the natural evolution of us falling pregnant and sort of going shifting our focus to being parents has been really natural and yeah we're just super excited and stoked to have a little bit of practice with your first child baby Henry he's one now Oh Banksy to the other day and I did celebrate
her birthday Sal still wants to go to go to the puppy cafe and have a little cake for Henry you all take Banksy to just get around it for a day so well recently minute yeah no Henry's um he's a good boy prior to find it prior to finding out that you guys are pregnant to now has your concept or thought process around being a dad changed and obviously this is a question that we can ask you in six months when you've got a little potato rolling around really I think does it feel it does
it feel real yet does it feel like it's happening I don't think so I mean we're over halfway now so you know and Sal is going through a lot of changes with her body it's um it's a like amazing what the female body can do in all of that yeah and I think you know trying to show up to Sal in a way that is supportive and you know empathetic of what she's experiencing yeah that's probably the more important piece that's probably the the piece that's taken over more from me thinking about being a dad
yeah so that's probably the identity that I identify with at the moment is you know being a husband and showing up to certain for Sal yeah it's like and I asked that question with my own bias of going well to be honest when KP was pregnant with loose like nothing changed for me really and as guys we kind of don't get to experience anything outside of the support and the action that we have with our with our partner and it kind of takes I remember a friend saying to me like I didn't really connect properly
with my daughter until like six ten months old when she could start to talk back and or you know interact and things like that I never really understood what he meant but when we had Lucy like I felt like that connection straightaway but it wasn't like you are the center of my world like you are everything and nothing else matters it was just kind of like a love that is built and built with with interaction and experience and connection over the time and how is that how is that experience been different to Billy has it
been different yeah it's definitely been different it's like I definitely feel like the law well I've known Lucy longest I like it more no but there was there's generally that those moments where can't KP like will will definitely highlight it when I do something that's like Lucy focus first and Billy Billy second but like as a fairly like the way I connect with the girls is like through like chatting and cuddles and playing and all those kind of things and Billy's growing into that now and you see like now I can go home and she's
a lot of face lights up and she like what was her way down and gives me a cuddle it's like like she's not speaking yet like really apart from like a few words says taco it's pretty pretty cute but it's definitely different because like there's been more time and experience in connection with loose and it kind of cuz I we're done with two and it kind of makes me more like I just I don't wish the time away but but it just gets better as I get older for my and my experience like some parents
just like I love the baby stage but for me I'm just like like pooey nappies and a potato that doesn't do anything like come on give me some interaction so I'm feeling that build now with Billy as she you know she's just turned one so like I feel like we're developing our relationship more now that we can actually interact and I know Kate like talking to KP it was different that connection with them both early on because they you know they spend so much time with their feeding and and all of those kind of things
as well so and your relationship is going to naturally just be different from KP's because of that that connection that a mother has with their child yeah yeah and I'm like I'm not a biggest softy in the world so like Lucy wants something like I am definitely definitely the yeah it's I did I need to work at it because she'll be like daddy I'm hungry I'm like there's no food in here and she'll be like there's lollies in your drawer and I'll be like no no Adam and she'll like walk over the driver see I
told you and I'll be like alright let's go have something else but it's like I'm genuinely rubber arms with her and yes and you know that's something that I don't want to just enable that as I go and there's you know I don't want to be is that like as parents I think it's important not to be friends with your child you've still got to be a parent and that parent first friend friend second if that makes sense like so yeah I'm I'm fascinated as how to look future as how that relationship will evolve now
that I've got the two girls that both have their own personalities and have their own way of communicating with me and with with us and things like that like Lucy jumping on the podcast has basically been out our highlight from a content creation for a long time and people like she's getting messages like we need more Lucy podcast and I'm like do I do I just say hey Lucy you're a podcast now we can do one a week but she's literally like daddy yes Lucy she's like can I do another podcast and like seeing her
like almost like thrive in that environment where she sits in this chair and she's just like can we talk about trees sure let's talk about tree and just to watch her little brain I've been kind of the way I've been talking about parenting lately it's like the biggest oxymoron in the world because it's like the most wonderful amazing incredible thing but it's so hard and draining and difficult at the same time yep and I think I've spoken about this on the podcast just my focus for the next four years just hang out with the girls
much as possible yeah and to build those connections and to you know just gonna what ride the wave in terms of like difficulties and things like that like my mates I remember him catching up with him one day he's got two kids as well he's couple years ahead of me but he just said he goes dude like we're sitting there last night and I had a crying baby in my arms we had a his wife was like sitting on the ground like leaning against his leg crying and screaming screaming kid in her arms and he's
just like what have we done and I remember hearing that being like fuck that sounds horrible but like even when you have those moments it sucks and it's hard but you're like like this is so wonderful yeah it's it's the contradiction of parenting is just so so strange and it's just unlike anything you experience so yeah I'm hanging out for for you and you and sell to experience that yeah it's gonna be a whole new thing for us and you know yeah like I said we're both super excited and not just for like the the
immediate challenge of having a child but also just building a family and you know building continue to build our community around family and you know being able to I guess a lot of our friends have now had has children not not all of them but a bunch of our friends do so you know have it having that it's weird to shift to that part of our life isn't it yeah it's super strange but also like it makes total sense and you know it's just the natural evolution I love how do you feel about following the
natural evolution right like like I'll I was always very resistant to it kind of you know you go to school you get a job you you know get married you have a kid you buy oh you buy a house you have a kid you know you hang out with them for 30 years and you die like I always was resistant to that yeah that view of of life and progress and things like that yeah but in a natural human condition so what how do you how do you view that now that you're yeah I think
like part of me wants to rebel against it and just not be another like part of the rat race so to speak but also like I just can't wait to be a dad to like have a heart have a home we have something at the moment as well so having a home where we can make our own and like that could be our space to grow into and I am all for it like I've wanted to be a dad for it for you know I've always loved kids and you know wanted to looked to be
a dad one day and so now that it's here it's like yeah like that's just next aggression yeah yeah I think you have the awareness I guess we both worked on a lot of last few years to kind of get really clear on why we're doing these things and what it actually looks like and not maybe not following that natural process blindly it's we're following it with open open eyes full heart clear heart clear eyes can't lose strong back yeah and you know I don't feel like I've missed out on anything yeah I like now
now settling down so to speak I think like we've traveled and we've lived and we've had peak experiences so I yeah I mean there's always more travel new kind of peak experiences yeah there's like there's an infinite amount of places you can visit but yeah it's like what it what adventure they quote like you can have anything you want but not everything you want like you make your decision get on with it like now you've met you guys have made the decision to settle down start a family and it doesn't mean you won't be able
to do the others other things it just means for now you know like if I go hey KP I'm going to Japan for a few weeks in you know in February just to jump on a snowboard it's like I currently do that no KP if I can just I mean I just dropping dropping hints but but it I guess it's just that like well I'd love to do that but also I would love you know I would love to spend two weeks with the girls more yeah and it doesn't mean I don't want to do
that and but it means that I almost have we almost have to be content with the decisions we've made that have yeah led to these our current yeah and it's all just part of like decision making and motivation around why we make decisions like you see we see people who are overseas now and like we have friends who are there and like oh it'd be wonderful to be in Turkey right now sitting in France drinking wine slowly oh but also like love baguettes but also like the challenges that are right in front of us like
they're incredibly motivating and yeah meaningful to us and you know we wouldn't want to be out anywhere other than you know with our girls and with the work that we find challenging and meaningful and you know without I was looking at lately I've looked at parenting like it's like like I'm a big movie but I love it love movies I love cinema and when you watch a movie where you're like everyone needs to see this movie like and you talk to people that haven't seen the movie or read the book or whatever it's like you
need to do this it's life-changing parenting is just like watching the best movie on earth and being like kids the first yeah I'm excited for you to see that movie me too five stars yes five stars but there's some there's some heartbreak in there they're like some character arcs a rollercoaster a lot of growth and developments like an emotional roller coaster it's like emotional right of some sort love it it's actually I'm excited mmm outside of being a dad is there is there and we'll wrap this up in the next minute or two but is
there anything that you're actively excited for outside being a dad now outside um being head of the risky boys being king risk chief risk captain risk worst superhero ever maybe there has been a lot of movement in our and I say our Sally out of my life in the last six months even you know we've got we're house hunting we like you know I've transitioned to this new role three nine three one made yourself in yeah maybe it would be nice to walk straight here so I'm very excited for those things to you know for
the house to happen and for the you know for us to start our family and then you know for me to settle into this this what you work space and you know start uncovering some new challenges and new problems to solve I think I want to do something hard so there's the we've spoken about this the oh yeah we signing up or what the 50k trial run in February I'll have a four-week old then so I'm completely go for ledge I think I want to sign up I want to do it if you do it
I'll do I'm excited I just want to have something physically demanding that I can bit of resilience focus into resilience training yeah something to give you a little bit of a nudge bit of positive pressure mmm bit of accountability because if I do it if you do it I do it yeah yeah that's it that we've got here it's related into that and leaning to that pretty heavily so you know I guess my feet my physical well-being has been a little bit of a focus as well you know I mentioned trying to get my sleep
under control which has been yeah been a focus been trying to drink a lot of h2o and yeah so having having the base you know we talk about capacity a lot and being a capable of doing things that you want to do and not having physical limitations on that because you haven't been looking after yourself for sure and you know the more physically capable I am the more cable I am to show up as a dad and in my work and so I've been trying to build a father figure rather than the dad bod make
a sticker next to go make some stickers so that has been a little bit of a focus I'm trying to build that capacity again because my training is falling off a ledge so I'm trying to build some consistency there trying to expose myself to some hot and cold stimulus to build that resilience as well as you know the health benefits that come with those things drink lots of water trying to eat some good food stuff that you know you should be doing that you haven't been exactly so it's the things that you know they're the
first things to fall away when you get busy or when you start to it's a nice reminder that the answer isn't some you know crazy concoction or some like fishin' off magic bullets just like simple simple simple shit yeah they're the simple things well yeah and that's where the like the transferability comes through because of you know I'm super grateful that I've got this background and understanding of well-being so it enables me to you know show up in the in the world that I am in now with this with this you know base level capacity
to do things little observation is the last podcast that I did by myself was with Ed good friend of ours and the conversation with Ed was around his progression from corporate job to to like small business and building his own thing and you're like I was just thinking about it then like your your journey has been effectively flip of that and I think it's really cool to be able to look at you both and look you've both done it because you're following about what you value and you're challenging yourself and you're looking at long-term growth
and you're playing long-term games hmm it's like an infinite game for both of you but you've done it backwards and I think it's a nice reminder that there is no path totally the path is made by walking took the words out of my mother and you know if we're for those listening who maybe aren't doing what they want to do or aren't content and love and fulfilled in what they're doing like there is power in change one more question before we finish up is it true that you have to risk it to get the biscuit
depends how bit tasty the biscuit is and on that note some Cooper it's been an absolute pleasure thanks mate have a good day
