Automatically transcribed, so expect the odd wrong name or word.
(upbeat music) - It's too damn hot for a penguin to be just walking around. - Three, two, one, eagle! - Are these two doctors? - I'm afraid so. - And here we go. - Edward. - Good morning. - Do you have any thoughts on bringing back the old intro? - I didn't know that was the old intro. I was about to call in and know how the production value skyrocketed. - Yeah, that was our old intro, but I'm thinking of bringing it back. I missed the start of it though, so. - I like it. Comment. - Talk to me.
- A little bit too long. - Yeah, which is why I cut the start of it out before we actually started, you know, starting. - Yeah, okay. - So we've started now. - You're right. - How are you? - Good, Nate, how are you? - I'm doing very well. - Thank you for having me. - Hey, it's bloody good to have you on. To the people that don't know Ed, he's been around a little while. He's been on the podcast before, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to get him back on and hear his growth and progress over the last couple years.
But in a nutshell, who Ed, who Ed? - Who Ed? (laughing) - Ed Persson. - I was trying to think of something funny. Who is Ed Washer? - I am a filmmaker/photographer, based out of the Morning Peninsula. I merrily work with small businesses at the moment and do a little bit of documentary work. - Beautiful, but it hasn't always been that way. - No. - Where was Ed last time we were on the podcast? Do you remember? - I was still in the glory days of Cadbury. - I'm really upset. - And door-to-door salesmen. - Door-to-door salesmen, just knock it on.
You wanted some twirls? - Pretty much. - And when no one wanted twirls, I got the twirls. - Did you get the twirls? I can't remember. - You gave me a couple of boxes of twirls. - Yeah, okay, that's right. - And then you left, so it was a real like-- - That's right. - I can't remember if you're salty because I didn't get the twirls. - I reckon you catfished me into your friendship by giving me a box of twirls and going, hey, this could be a regular thing and then going-- - Life hacks, everyone.
If someone doesn't like you, love on them. A little bit toxic, but it works. - It works, and hey, you're still hanging around, so. I mean, and the reason I got you on, 'cause I've seen your growth and seen your business growth and your capacity to actually make good content. Not that you weren't good before, but it has skyrocketed over the last few years. So I wanna talk about that, I wanna talk about that process. So when you left Cadbury, what was the main reason you decided to give up a assume well-paying, stable corporate job to shift into being a not well-paid, unstable small business owner?
- Well, truth be told, I hated the job. It was very much a progression of, this is what you should do. And I'm sure a lot of people have had this experience. You know, go get the safe job, go through uni, get the safe job, you know, and then just work away. And that very sort of old school mentality of just get the good job, chip away, do your 40, 50 hours a week, and then hopefully you'll wind up with a nice house by the time you're 65. - Buy a boat when you're 45. - Hate it, and then realize you've wasted the last 20 years of your life, and yeah.
And then I was fortunate enough to fall into photography and just thought like, I really love doing this. And it was very much just a hobby at the start of like something I do on the weekends. And then one person just offered to pay me to do it. And I was like, I literally had zero idea 'cause this was before Instagram was really a big thing. And social media marketing was very like early on. So people weren't really paying for content that I knew of. And I wasn't in social media that much. So I didn't know businesses would pay for photos.
- People were just snapping photos and growing organically that way. - Like I knew there was photographers, but I thought I still had the old school mentality of like, that's your Vogue cover shoot things. And like, I thought it was a very select few people that were actually making money with photography. The sort of money that you could live off anyway. So someone asked me to take some photos for them and they paid me, I remember exactly how much it was, $400, and at the time I was making 650 bucks a week at Cadbury, so I was like, holy shit, I just made, you know, two thirds of my weekly wage from one hour photo shoot.
- Yeah, wow. - Like they pay me very well. Like I look at the photos now, it's fucking dreadful, I don't pay for them. So it was like just this light bulb moment. It was like, I can do what I want to do and do something I love and get paid for it. - From that point in time to when you did pull the pin, how long was it? And what was the process you went through? - It was about a year. And it was honestly just a shitload of work. Like as much, as cheesy as that sounds, it was, I was living with my brother at the time and he can testify to this.
I would do my Cadbury work and honestly, like as soon as I did my like seven hours, I figured it out, it was seven hours and 40 minutes a day I had to do to hit my 38 hours. It would literally be like that and it would just be like, I'm out, like I'm done. And then it would literally be six or seven hours every night and then pretty much all day, Saturday and Sunday, just working, so probably whatever that works out to, like an extra 50 hours on top of my normal job. And that's all I did for a year.
- Yeah, how did you start to get the work? Was it literally just sticking your hand up and saying, I'm taking photos, 400 bucks to photo shoot now. - It wasn't even that, it was all free. I literally like, so I started in cafes and I literally just Google an area of cafes near me or something like that, dropped the Google pin and then I just messaged all of them and email all of them. So I was probably sending about 30 emails and 30 direct messages on Instagram to places. - Yeah, so it wasn't just handed to you, it actually had to go out.
- Like I was genuinely grinding, like part of me looks at me now and goes like, I wish I worked that hard now. - Feels, mate, feels. - So different, but like, yeah, no, I was incredibly hungry for it. And it was like driven by two things, I really want to do it, but I really added my job. And I think you've probably seen this with a lot of things and probably with Virtus as well and with your clients, like negative motivation could be almost more powerful than positive motivation. - Yeah, I mean, it's one
of the really simple bits of advice I give our mentorship students, like you'll find out what you want to do by doing the stuff you hate. I still remember certain parts of my placement that I loved and certain parts of placement I hate and I was just like, well, that one's off the list. And it allows you to, you know, for most people that don't know what they're doing and they don't know what they want to do and I still have days where I'm like that, you would still have days where you're like, what the fuck have I done?
I don't have any twirls in the fridge, et cetera, et cetera. I'm miserable. But like those times are far outweighed by the good stuff. Now, but for most, maybe not most people, but for a fair whack of the population, people don't do what they love to do. What was the thing that, or the, 'cause you'd obviously plan to pull the pin, but planning and doing are two different things. What was the thing that got you over the edge that allowed you to go, yep, I'm done? Was it a certain monetary number? Was it a certain number of clients?
Was it just a time period? - To be honest, it was more negative. Like I just got so over the job. I just hated every aspect of it. Like there was no, I was in sales and I just fucking hated sales in the capacity that they do it. I think it's really hard to be good at sales if you don't believe in what you're selling. And I'm like, I'm not a big sweet tooth. I can't say I love chocolate. Like I'll eat it if it's in front of me, but I never go out of my, like it's just not something I care about.
And I just, the general idea of forcing confection down people's throats. And once you learn about the marketing they do and how much they dive into psychology of getting you to eat more, it just felt really slimy. And then I was also in the small business segment. So I was going to these milk bars and these like little corner stores and all this sort of stuff. The people that were like really struggling for money and like trying to do these aggressive sales tactics. Yeah. And I could tell they didn't want them. And like, I remember
going out with my area manager at the time and they just kept on saying, like, you've got to keep pushing, got to keep pushing, like overcome this objection. And for me, it's like, well, if the dude's got five objections to why he doesn't want this product, maybe he just doesn't want it. And like, and it also felt really unsustainable. Cause it's like, so I forced these chocolates down his throat. He buys them, they don't sell. He throws them out and what you want me to come back into next month and be like, hey, there's more objections.
So just, and then there was just a lot of like the corporate bullshit. Like one thing, and my partner can attest to this. I hate being told what to do. Like I hate it. So for me, when I was like, I was ready to take the next jump and progression. And they're like, well, you're going to have to sit on it for nine months to 12 months until a position comes up. I was like, fuck that. Like stuff that, like having someone else be like, this is when you're going to progress rather than me being able to go like, no, I'm ready to go now.
- Yeah. - It's just like, I really didn't like that. - Yeah, I mean, there's something, there's something really powerful about being responsible for your success or your failures. I remember certain times of business where I'm like, fuck, it's all on me now. But then like the flip side of that, same thought process is fucking, it's all on me now. It's like whether you succeed or whether you fall and learn and whatever, it's all on you. And you don't have, like you finish here, you can't finish your seven hour 40 minute day and go, well, I should day to day, like someone else will pick it up.
Someone else will carry the load for me. It's like, oh shit, I've got to do the work and you've got to put in, which is a pretty, I mean, it's pretty, it's confronting and it takes some time. And I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of people don't take the leap. Would you have any like short form, short form advice for anyone who's like, I hate my job, but I don't know what to do like Ed did? - I'd say experiment. 'Cause I think a lot of the people, a lot of people don't even try and suss out the options that they have available to them.
And also like give it a proper crack. I see a lot of people try something for like an hour or two or they do it for a week. And they're like, oh, I don't think it's for me. Like I see that a lot. And I understand there's different mechanisms behind motivation trying to get something done, but you gotta give something a proper crack. Like I wasn't, I didn't take like do two photo shoots and be like, nah, this isn't for me. Like, you'll know obviously if you just, like we said, if you really don't like something, but like really invest into it and see what you can do and then talk to people in the industry as well.
'Cause you might, if you're like looking for a career change, you might talk to people and realize there's no money involved. So talk to people in the industry and see what you can do and see what the legitimacy is of what you're doing. But yeah, I'd say just invest into it. Like I've always, always said this you'd be, and my, I'm gonna correct myself. My partner says this 'cause last time I was on a podcast I said something that she says to me and she was like-- - And you claimed it? - Yep. - Yes. - And she was like, I told you that like the week before.
I was like, oh. So I'm gonna get myself out of the sin bin here. She said to me like, it doesn't, as long as you're doing like an hour a day or something, if you do that every day for a year, you'd be like amazed at how far you could go. And I agree with that completely. - How many hours is it if you do it every an hour a day for a year? - Well, I'd say 365, maybe. - There you go. - Give or take. - It's a couple of weeks of full-time work. - Pretty much.
- Almost 10 of them. - Yeah, but I think there's also like a really amazing feeling and a self-confidence that you get from actually going out and doing something on your own terms, rather than being like someone trying to be like, like with the thing I have with Cabrio, that then sort of directing my progression, all that when you're sort of the master of your own ship and you're driving that change is something incredibly empowering about that. And it will give you the confidence to be like, I don't think I wanna be in this job that I don't really like that much.
- Yeah, well, there's a self-efficacy that comes with just being capable of doing something. And that can only be built by doing the thing consistently and putting in like, it's easy in our environment to use the term reps, but it's putting in reps and whether it be photo shoot or editing or color grading, I still don't know what that is, but whether it be shooting film or taking photos is it's just the reps and the reps and it took you what, nine, 12 months to get to the point where you're like, you know, catch a later 12 bars.
- Yeah. - And you can move on to actually building your business. So to Ed, cheers to you. It's been pleasure seeing it. - Cheers over the soundboard, to be honest. Makes me nervous. - Yeah, no, it's probably a good idea. Drinking delicious common folk coffee at the moment, so cheers to them, sponsorship. So I wanna talk to you, you mentioned sales and you mentioned how you despise sales and this is something that like we've, I've worked on myself, you know, probably towards like 2017, 2018 around like reframing my view of sales and working with Tyler and Mitch and the team about doing it over the last 18 months.
And it's something that I think if you, sales can be the most wonderful thing in the world if you view it the right way and you're doing it for the right reason. So when you look at a sales pitch now, which in effect is you just selling marketing or a video or a documentary or a product that you can produce for someone, how do you approach that and how is it different to when you used to work at Cadbury? Shout out to Cadbury, by the way, sponsorship, all over for it. - I feel like after what I've said, we're probably gonna get sponsorship.
I think sales has changed mainly because I'm passionate about what I do and that's like what I said was a big hurdle for me is like I didn't care about the product I was selling. I think it's very hard to be a good salesman with something you don't care about or saleswoman. You've got to believe in what you're selling and I think that just comes across from an authenticity. Sales is really easy to get really slimy really quick. So if you've got someone that's doing your sales and they don't even work in Virtus, they don't do the, they're like, you know, whatever it is, not judging people that are overweight, but they're overweight, they're obviously not a gym person.
They don't associate with his environment at all. It just doesn't come off right. It just, I think people can see into authenticity. So for me, when I was at Cadbury, it was very much just ticking that box and getting those numbers. I know I've got to sell this many cases throughout the week, you know, to get my boss off my back. Whereas now it's like, I genuinely want to invest into these companies and create a partnership with them. So I'm not trying to sell them in the sense that I used to believe. It's just like, you know, here's the reasons you should buy.
It's like-- - It's non-transactional now. - Yeah, it's more of a, here's what I can do for you, not I need to get something out of this transaction. I think once you take that perspective, it just opens everything up. So you realise that you are actually helping them. And then once you can say that, you know, it's not about ticking a box, you're actually trying to help their business and you genuinely stand on that. I think it just shifts your perspective and it makes it much easier 'cause you just believe in it and you can,
they can see that people are very, you know, whether they can put their finger on it or not, people can tell whether you're authentic and whether you actually want to help or whether you're just looking for a buck. - Yeah, for sure. I mean, at the end, like we talk about Virtus and we talk about the gym as like, sure, we're in the exercise, the coaching, the S&C business, but in a nutshell, we're in the people business. Like our job is to cultivate and foster relationships to create a space where people can grow and adapt
and overcome things that they weren't able to do before, whether it be lifting heavy, whether it be their mindset around nutrition, whether it be how they're feeling about themselves or whatever it is. Like your role in a nutshell as videographer isn't just to take pretty pictures and take pretty videos, even though you do that fairly well, it's good for me. It's to cultivate relationships and get a really clear understanding around people's why and why they exist and what they're actually trying to achieve. What's been the biggest, not necessarily the biggest learning, but one of the
most profound learnings around actually, 'cause it gets some pretty cool position to be in for you to be able to go into businesses and most of these businesses you're working with are small, not necessarily small, but small, they're self-owned and ran businesses where you get to see why people do things. So what's been the most profound area of growth or learning from that? I've butchered that question, but you can figure out what I mean. - I'm trying to figure it out. The most profound thing is, from like a business perspective, it's been fascinating to watch how different businesses operate.
'Cause obviously with my niche and my skillset is like I can go into any business really, 'cause it's just a documentation of what's happening. And how you present that in the edit will depend on what sort of content you're gonna get. But for me, it's being able to watch how different models work, like a membership model versus like a transactional model, like a cafe. So from the business point of view, that's been amazing to see how different it is. But from a storytelling and creative process, it's been amazing to see how similar they all are. Like I know what makes a successful business and it is people, 100%.
Maybe not if you're like an e-commerce guy and all you do is like drop shipping or whatever. But like when you're brick and mortar, small business, like it's all about your people. It's about how you treat your community. It's about how you foster your community. And so there's this massive overlaps there about like caring about the people that come into your shop, whatever that is, and fostering those relationships, making people feel appreciated, feel welcome, feel as if that their money is being spent and going towards people that actually care about them. So seeing those overlaps
has been like awesome 'cause there is a huge overlap in terms of how people engage and foster relationships and success from what I can see with small businesses. - Obviously, community is a big part of, it's always one of the pillars of your business. What are the other pillars that help support that, allow you to make sure that the product you deliver at the end of the day is one, what the people are after and two, adds the value that they're after? - Probably the biggest pillar, it's not actually community, is communication. And I think that's something that a lot of creatives can do poorly 'cause they tend to be introverted sort of people.
Like I, as much as I can talk a shitload, I'm pretty introverted. Like I, it kind of goes with the territory 'cause I sit in my room all day editing. I'm not saying anything. I'm sitting there for like eight, 10 hours without saying a word. So for me, it's about communication. Like really, if you can really understand what a company is trying to do, what their why is, what their mission is, then your videos will be a million times better or your creative will be a million times better. Like without having a genuine conversation about
what the business is about and having that sort of discovery of learning who they are and what they do and why they do it, you can't really create effective content. Like I couldn't walk into Virtus without knowing you and just make a, I can make a cool video. - Yeah. - I can make a video that'll get you, you know, lots of likes and all that sort of stuff. You've shot once, you've shot twice, you might get half as many likes. Again, it's just gonna be like-- - There's no deaths to it. - Whereas I
can come in now and like, you know, spoiler alert, we've got something exciting coming, but that sort of stuff that we've been talking about, this in-depth stuff is gonna engage people and foster community more than any sort of flashy sort of video is ever gonna do. - Yeah, I mean-- - So that comes from the understanding of the business and what they do. - Yeah, I mean, there's layers to engagement, right? Like, and this is something that I really wanna talk about is like what you've learned about social media and what you've learned about marketing and how it all fits into your end product and your end result thereafter.
But yeah, for sure, and it's almost, as a business, that's one of the hardest things for yourself is to know and to be clear consistently on why you exist, what you're trying to achieve. And like, in of itself, a business exists to provide value for the people that run it, the people that are a part of it. And usually that value is, oh, sorry, there's many different resources that come from a business, but the main one is money, right? Most people run a business so they can pay their bills and support their families and get from A to B.
But what you've learned and what you mentioned before is businesses are obviously so much more than that. There's so many more dimensions to a business. Have there been businesses where you've had to coax out that why? And what, and has that happened in tandem with you figuring out your why over the years? And follow-up to that is what advice would you have for people starting a business or in a business who aren't completely sure about their why? 'Cause you've had, in a pretty cool position where you get to speak to so many business owners about why they exist in a nutshell.
- I think your why is everything. It's been very trendy to talk about over the last few years, but you gotta understand, it doesn't matter-- - Thank you, Simon. - Simon Zinnick, yep. - Shout out. - Yeah, I think that's probably the most important thing, but that comes into every facet of your life. You need to know why you're doing something. Nobody's gonna stick to anything if they're just doing something 'cause they're told to. And that same is, that was like what it was with Cadbury for me, it was like I was just doing it 'cause I was told to do it.
There was no why behind it, it was just ticking boxes for the sake of ticking boxes. It wasn't leading me to where I wanna go. - I mean, you got that job because it was the right thing to do post-uni, right? - Yeah. - Or because told was the right thing to do. - Yeah, exactly. So I think if you don't have a reason for what you're doing, I'd be questioning why, well, finding out the why, like why are you doing it? And if you can't find a good reason, it's just like, it's just not gonna work.
I think I'm seeing a massive shift in the market in general. It doesn't matter if you're a huge business, small business, it's everything's going, like small business has always been people-based, but even big business is expected to have some sort of personality beyond, you know, these are our brand colors and this is who we are. And like, you know, this is what we do. It's like, they wanna know who's designing things, who's making things. Like they wanna know, even in businesses with like a hundred thousand employees, they wanna know who's doing what and having some sort of connection.
'Cause the trend I've seen through COVID is people just don't give a shit about polish and models and, you know, chasing trends. They just want to know who people are. And I think that's a ripple effect of being shut off from human connection so much, you know, and realizing, you know, you spend that much time in social media and I knew this before COVID, but, you know, obviously it's like forced people to sit down and spend as much time as I do on social media with my clients and all that. It's sort of made people realize this, like how fake that world is and how curated it is.
So these brands that are just being authentic to who they are and knew who they were, they weren't just chasing trends. They just exploded because they got, people got authenticity. They built a huge amount of trust and they were able to just foster a community even online, which is something that when you're putting this picture perfect polished stuff in front of people, it's like, that's just not how it is. - Who are some of those brands that come to mind? And like, I could name my five in terms of the ones that I buy and the, almost the reasons why I buy from them.
And I'm a repeat customer of certain ones. Who are the brands that come to mind as ones that do that really well? - You guys, 100%. I'm not just saying that. - You are saying that. - That was like potential. (laughing) - Sorry. - Use code Ed10% at checkout. Few of those memberships. - I'll seriously put that on. - I get a kick back. - I'll put that on. I'll make that. - So you guys do it really well. There's a new place in Rosebud that does it really well. A cafe that's just opened up. They do it fantastically.
The Hideout, if you're inside the potential-- - Name 'em, get around 'em. - Yeah, the Hideout. - We want to make more friends. - Amazing. - Laneway-Dramana, my OG clients, they do it really, really well. Places I don't shop at, but I really love what they're doing. Official Vintage up in the city. They do vintage sale, like they refurbish and redo vintage clothing, and like it's just, the owner's always on their social media. He's super engaged, he's super involved. So you feel like you know them. I don't even know if I have five, 'cause there's not a huge amount of people diving into it.
- What about, are there any big businesses that you see and you go, yep, they're authentic, they're genuine around what they're actually trying to do. - Yeah, Wendy's, you've probably seen the meme, Wendy's in the US, because they've got like a sassy fucking 20 year old on their Twitter. So they've just thrown out the handbook of like, the customer's always right and all this sort of stuff. So if this guy being a dick about his order, 'cause he's like, oh, I had four pickles instead of five that I usually have, like they'll literally just reply back and be like, yeah, who gives a shit, Steve?
Like, it's just like so sassy. And so, and it basically, all they're doing is like basically saying what everybody's thinking. It's like, 'cause it's, it's this brand that's meant to be like, yeah, exactly, it's like, what are you expecting? It's like, oh, we're so sorry about that terrible service, by the way, here's a $20 voucher to go to any event Wendy's would want. But it's like, that's just so fake and service level. So it's, yeah, they're-- - It's personality, you know, corporations exist personalityless and faceless and soulless. But I guess that's probably not where we wanna go is be corporations.
- I just think it's sterile. - Having a pretend soul and a pretend face and pretend personality part. - Comes back to like the sales thing in terms of authenticity. Like that's where everything's going at the moment. People just want a little bit authenticity in their life. 'Cause they've just been deprived of it over COVID. And they just wanna, you know, they want something real and they're just sick of the bullshit and that's just where everything's going. And like, it's not just like as we're getting older, 'cause we're like over the hill now, you know? Like young kids are actually driving.
This is Gen Z. They've just seen it, they've grown up with it, just been blasted with advertising messages and they just want something real. They don't need this-- - Double EL or R-E-A-L? - Huh? - Double EL or R-E-A-L? - I got no idea, mate. - I can't keep up. - Yep. Give Lucy 10 years and she'll fill us in on everything. - I hope so. I hope so. That's why I'm getting her on the podcast. Get her good at creating content early so that she can get massive on whatever the next TikTok is. - Bridge the gap.
- Bridge the gap between us and her. I mean, like the business or the company that I think of when you talk about authenticity and real and quality is like Patagonia. It's like a company that's grown and effectively is a big multinational corporation now, but I feel as though they're still, you know, well and truly tied to their roots. Like reading Yvon Chouinard. Chouinard? I don't even know how to say his name. His book is like, if you haven't read it, phenomenal in terms of like brand building and marketing and just values, being a values-based business.
And even like what they do from a sustainability and a climate change perspective is, it's not, you know, it seems like they're doing the best that a big corporation can, which, you know, maybe is still lacking on where they should be, but I look at a company like that and even, I don't know, Nike's like a massive giant company that have done a lot wrong, but, and again, I'm relaying my assumptions of these based off the books of the founders that I've read and what I've listened to in interviews and what the company's trying to do, but I would like to think that the way forward and, you know, Gen Z and the, what's after Gen Z?
What are the next little kidlets called? - Gen A? Does it go back around? - I don't know, maybe. - Do they bridge it with like millennials? - Maybe they just like a number and a letter or something. Get some, yeah, get some different names, but I think that maybe those companies are like leading the way in terms of like what the future looks like. Maybe ExxonMobil and those guys aren't gonna be what they are because we demand change and, you know, change is hard and change, but change is inevitable and I think, if we go the other way, we're fucked.
- Yeah, we got existential really quick, but if we continue to go-- - Happy Wednesday, by the way, guys. - It'll be Monday when this comes out, but people might listen to it on a Wednesday, so who knows? But I think the progress will come from businesses, big corporations, and then small businesses being values-based and being quality-based and being customer-based so that everything you do is around, all right, how can I do what aligns with my values, 'cause most people's values are around the same things, they're around belonging and around connection and around quality. How
can I do that and deliver my product to a consumer base that actually gets something out of it and actually moves us forward and actually grows? - Yeah, but these market leaders are pushing the shift in the standards that we have as consumers, 'cause I think small businesses have to be value-driven and community-driven. Like you just, you quite frankly can't compete on price and service, service in terms of convenience as a big, 'cause they just have these fucking billions of dollars behind them, like you can't compete with that. And then there's obviously economies of scale and all these things that come into-- - We're actually bringing in a 6.99 membership next week.
- 6.99? - Yeah. - Yeah, really? - Weekly, $6.99. - 6.99 a day, or? - No, you just rock up and for as much as you want, 6.99 a month, thoughts? Race to the bottom. - 100%. - Yeah, no, we're great quality. But, you know, and then, so I think small business has always been value-driven in terms of like, you're gonna get such a better experience here than you'll get at any commercial gym. - I hope so. - Because it is tailored to you, you've got people that are there engaged and they care about you
and the progress you're making, they're monitoring you in the sense of like, hey, I'm seeing that hip's playing up again, or you know, how's your knee going? Oh, it's way better, all right, cool, we're gonna progress and we're gonna keep building on that, whereas like, good life or whatever. - Nah, shut up, get around 'em. - Yeah, so, well, I went to good life and I didn't enjoy the experience, so this is my reflection. - Emotional, dammit! - You know, it's just scan your fob, have you paid your membership and off you go. And that's
great for some people and that's what you want, but you know, I think that's where small business has massive advantages, where you can build that community. But the people like Pannagotia and all that are doing it in a way, they're building community at scale and they're getting people to rally behind a mission, which obviously-- - I mean, that's almost the big asterisk, right? It's like having a mission to rally behind. - Exactly, but then you think that's driving the market to expect and demand more from other companies, 'cause you see people that you can just tell they're just ticking the box, you know?
Oh, we're gonna recycle like 5% of our stuff or whatever, it's like, the fuck are you talking about? Like, you could do so much more, and they know it. Or like, we're gonna be carbon usable by like 2075. Like, you're sick, so we'll all be on fire and underwater by then. - You see all of the big business Twitter accounts change to the rainbow flag in pride month, and then the first of the next month it's gone. It's just like, there's gotta, yeah, finding that, well, it's not even a balance, but being able to pick as a consumer, being able to pick the ones that do it for the almost like the social kudos versus the ones that do it.
- Oh, 100%. - Because it's actually part of what they're trying to achieve. - So, and I think that's just them not realizing that people are buying Patagonia because of their mission, they're not buying, in the sense that they believe in it, they're not buying it just because Patagonia says it, you know? If Patagonia donates, you know, millions of dollars or has their own program to like support the LGBTQI community versus just changing their logo, like people are gonna buy from Patagonia, they're not gonna be like, like some people do, like some people are buying into that marketing, but I think 99% of people can see it, it's just bullshit.
- Most people will sit there and bitch about, you know, the big corporations and what they do and things like that, but, and at the end of the day, it's one of those things that like you'll all vote, you vote with your cash and you vote with how you spend and at the end of the day, it makes no difference really what you do, but if you make values-based decisions of, you know, of how you buy and what you purchase and where you buy from and you decide to shop locally and you decide to spend
a little bit more of the local grocer or you decide to buy locally produced merchandise, shout out, snack, I'll get around them, and local coffee, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you begin to make that shift within your own little ecosystem and then, you know, if you do it, your family's probably gonna do it and your friends are probably gonna do it and this is how progress is made by, you know, one small, one person insignificant in the scheme of things, making a change that then, you know, filters out to everyone and I think that's
what I love about, to, you know, shift back to what we're talking about with you, that's what I love about your work is your work kind of brings people back to that what and the why and the how and then allows us to then look internal community focused and go, all right, well, like, how cool is this stuff that Lame Way are doing or the different businesses that we get to see your content from and how good's Ed, you know, showing how he's learning about all these different things and he's showing in 15, 20 second
reels, love your reels by the way, get around Ed's reels, they're great, this is what allows us to move forward and grow and make, you know, the best of a shitty capitalistic society. Tell me about your growth, we'll shift the conversation a little bit, tell me about your growth from a creative perspective over the last couple of years, what's driven it? How have you made progress? 'Cause I'm not saying your content was shit before, but it's-- - No, there's been a massive leap in the last year. - It's gotten significantly better. - Yeah, look, at
the, I think at the start, I was very focused on just getting better without direction and there's like, there's validity to that, like I was just pretty much shit across the board, so like I had to lift every aspect, but now it's sort of getting to the point, it's like I can properly dissect it and be like, all right, the lighting needs to be better, I need to get better at my color grading, I need to invest a little bit more in learning about pacing and you know, the storytelling, so it's much more, the progress
and the progress moving forward is much more nuanced in terms like here's the weak areas and you know, it's like when you first start training, everything hurts, so you don't know that, you know, I'm gonna have to put a bit more work into my core or whatever 'cause of my lifestyle or you know, we need to work on my balance or you know, you don't know these things when you start training, so it was very much just at the start. It was like monumental progress and then it sort of capped out a bit through COVID
more just 'cause I wasn't, I didn't have the ability to have the volume of work coming through clients and then it's sort of, I feel like in the last year especially for me has been the biggest growth 'cause it's taken me from, I'd say middle, like a pretty average creator to someone that's actually starting to get on the more professional end in terms of I see my stuff now versus what it was before and it's given me the confidence to be like, I actually reckon I could shoot a documentary and it'd be good, not be one of those shitty ones that you see on like Amazon Prime, that's like, you know, a dollar to hire or something.
- I'd fit in a dollar to hire your doc on Amazon Prime. - Thanks, mate. - Yeah, you're welcome. - I reckon it's $2 of sales there, you and mom. - Not $3.99, Jesus, what's driven that? Has it just been your desire to grow and improve or has it kind of been a necessary level of growth to get the work you want and to work with the people you wanna work with? - No, it's just been intrinsically motivated. I don't need to do, I don't need to put the polish on my videos that I do. It's a pride thing.
I would rather do, I'd rather hand something over to someone and be like, I did the best I could with the tools I have at the moment to make this as good as I can but I also am a pretty firm believer in like it's hard, it's hard to take the next step so if someone wants me to shoot like a big production and they're seeing my work now, it's not up to that ability whether I'm getting paid for what I'm doing now to reflect the work that I'm doing in it which in terms of
the color grading in these like more detailed end position, like back end sort of stuff that I'm doing, I'm probably not but I feel like I need to have something to show that but it's also like if I get the opportunity to step into that position, I wanna be ready for it. I don't wanna be walking on there onto set and being like, I don't really know what I'm doing. - Yeah, I mean, and there's gotta be that little bit of, like there's almost gotta be part of it's gotta be anxiety around like why I'm
doing things that challenge me and that I'm forcing myself to grow so that there's a little bit of lack of control or lack of understanding around what you're doing but that like the whole fake it till you make it thing works for like for a tiny little bit but the rest is just competency based, right? And that competency base comes from, watching, reading, learning. So where do you look to learn new skills and to upgrade your current skills and like are there people, are there videos, are there courses, where do you go for your PD?
- At the moment they're courses but it's, so the thing is like you can get a lot of stuff online for free but then it sort of hits a point where your knowledge, you know as much as the people who are teaching these things so then you need to go out and pay someone 'cause if someone's super advanced in their career like they're not gonna give out this information for free. Like if they're a market leader, why would you, you know, give it out for free because it's like I know someone to pay 800 bucks for this six hour course, you know?
And it's not because they're trying to make money, it's just like they might be making $1,000 an hour at you know doing what they do. So why would they invest all this time to make a course and be like oh I'm just gonna release it for free unless there's some sort of ulterior motive. But also you need to go to specialists after a point. Like if you, I don't know that much about the strength world but like if you don't know anything about Olympic lifting but you're good with everything else across the board, you need to go to an Olympic lifting coach to learn how to do that properly.
- You know enough for that example, so good from you. - Yeah so like for me one of the big things I've been focusing on is color grading which is like a huge differentiating between looking at a still or a frame from a movie to going like oh that was shot in a video camera versus that's like from a movie. - Gotcha. - So and there's like a full psychology behind everything that happens there but the actual tools that are extremely complicated. - Yeah. - So that's been a big one but I knew I needed to go find courses from professionals in the industry and invest that money into it.
- Yeah so is that like Vince Gilligan shifting when he's going back in time, shifting it to black and white and when he's in Mexico shifting it to a nice huey yellow. - Yeah, yeah, yeah pretty much. - That's color grading in a nutshell? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - There you go. Actually something that fascinates me is and what's, I'm just assuming this is a misconception. Misconception is around video content is how long it takes to produce content versus how long it takes to edit it. So what would the time frame be? Say you have a one minute video for a minute finished polished product.
How long would it take you to edit it? If it's like top end of what you're doing now? - It's pretty broad. Like if I was going like-- - Give me an answer Ed. - Going all out, like roughly at the moment. For every hour I'm shooting is about four hours at home. - Yeah, so you're like 4X. - Yeah. - That's crazy. - And like people, so when I'm billing I bill just by the hour. It's way easier for you to go like, I'm here for a day so it's gonna be this much and people kind of go like-- - But then you build that into your product.
- Yeah, exactly. Like it's easier for me to go and much more easy to swallow. If I go it's, you know, this is not how much I charge but you know, here's $1,000 for the day and people go oh geez, that's gonna be expensive but you're not realizing if I'm there for eight hours I'm gonna be doing 32 hours on the back end. - Great maths. - Yeah. - Good for you. - Yeah, I have to do it a lot. - What are the misconceptions around your job? 'Cause I guess every industry and every job has things that they would like to clear up with the general population.
What are the things that you're like, I wish all my clients or I wish all the people who consume my videos, what do you wish they knew? - One, you get what you pay for, big time. - Hey, that's true for everything in life. - That is a pretty good rule of thumb. There's some outliers but you definitely, in this industry, you get what you pay for. So if you've got a cousin that can do it cheaper I can guarantee you can't do it as well as me. And it takes a lot more time than you think.
So I don't tell people that little rule of thumb unless they really start and push back on the price but it takes a lot more than you think. And there's a lot more that goes into it. And just in general with service based stuff and this is the same with like, I'm sure you get this, is like, you're not just paying for my time, you're paying for my expertise. You know, and you're paying for me, it's like my gear and you're paying for all that. So the biggest misconception is it takes a lot more time and effort than you think and it's not just, my job isn't finished once I've left the set or your business.
So yeah, I think that's probably the biggest one. But I think it's changed a lot in the time that I've been in it. Like people appreciate it a lot more than they used to. - Well I think people appreciate it because you build those relationships and they get to see behind the curtain a little bit. It's not like you show the hand and send the video and that's it. It's like each time you shoot with someone, you get to know them a little bit better, they get to know you a little bit better and you foster that relationship.
You mentioned gear there, you're a bit of a gear slut. - Yep. - Love it. - Yep. - Tell me about, like, I guess this is something, knowing how much you spend on some things, it blows my mind. But talk to me through your relationship with gear and buying new gear because it's one of those things that it's like never-ending, right? It's like there's always more and better. And this is the thing I love about the gym in a nutshell. Like, sure I can get, we can get new machines and we can get nicer barbells and we can get nicer plates.
But at the end of the day, a barbell's a barbell. Unless we're in competition and things like that. So cameras and the tech world is so evolutionary in terms of like every six months there's something new and something better and something more expensive. So one, how do you keep up with that? Two, how do you control yourself if you control yourself? And three, like, do you set process and system around leveling up as you get better? - Look, I definitely, when I start, and a lot of the videographers and photographers I've talked to, when you start you are very heavily involved with the marketing sort of cycle that they have.
'Cause camera companies, you wouldn't know unless you're in the industry. They're so fucking aggressive with their marketing. Like, they are so aggressive. - Cadbury style? - Oh, it's just, it's almost worse. Like I hate it, like I've stopped following creators that are like influencers because like if I go into YouTube on a day that something, a camera's dropped, it's just like a whole thing, like 30 videos. This is the best thing ever, this is the best thing ever. And like, they're all giving this shit. And they're saying like, "Yeah, I'd definitely drop my camera for this."
I was like, "Yeah, I would too if someone dropped "a fucking $8,000 camera in my lap." - Yeah, here you go, try this out. - I'd say whatever you want about it, you know? So, I know I fell for that, and it was only until I got my camera that I've got now, and it wasn't the step up that I thought it was. 'Cause it's fucking expensive, and I thought this is gonna change the game. This is gonna make my videos the best videos ever. And like, this is the difference between me and these other people that I see that are really successful and I got it and my videos were still not what I wanted it to be.
Then I realized like, it's not-- - It's all, yeah. There are people in the industry that say it's not, it doesn't matter what you're shooting on, it's more about your skillset. Like, you'll make an iPhone with expertise look better than a high-end camera with no expertise. - Yeah. - And like, you can't, you don't even have the knowledge and the capability to like execute on what the camera can do in terms of how much it gives you to work with in post until you've got all that knowledge. So, my relationship with gear is much healthier now.
Like, I know from a genuine need. So like, I've just bought a gimbal, but that's because my other one is falling apart. Like, it doesn't balance properly. So, I need that. Like, I know I need that. It's not like, oh yeah, that'll be really cool. - Eat it. - I definitely need it, 100%. And like, I'll only buy things when I think they're actually gonna genuinely bring value to my business. But I've also just set myself a budget every year. So, it's like, if I really want that camera-- - Is it a soft budget? 'Cause I've got a pretty soft budget.
- No, I'm pretty good with it. But it's been the first time ever that I've been really comfortable with my gear set and I can do everything that I need to and a bit more. So, there will be new cameras and all that, but it'll be if the opportunity arises that I have got a massive project and I can budget that in to the point where it's like, yeah, no, my current cameras aren't capable of executing to the level that I want. - Yeah, it allows you to level out. - Yeah, yeah, whereas before it was like, if I get the camera, then I can do the job, you know?
Or that's when the work will come. - So, it almost has to be like a needs analysis, it's like. - Yeah. - Yeah, which, if we build it, they will come. If you buy it, they will come. But then there's also like, eh, we'll buy it when we need it. Which is a good place to be because then you can plan it in and put it in and almost quote it in sometimes for the big ones. Where to now? Where's the growth? Where's the progress for Edwisher Productions? - Well, Edwisher Productions is going. As of start of next year, it's gonna be switching over to a new brand, which I've just finalised, which is cool.
Gonna call it Mango Media. (laughing) I knew you'd laugh. But-- - There's no context here, I'm not telling you anything, but that's good, good for me. Mango Media, great. - Do you wanna know why? - Why, what? - Have I told you why? Have I even told you this? - No, tell me. - I think I told Kurt, I think Kurt's the only one that knows. - Hate that guy. - If you look in all my videos in the background, there is a plush Mango. I don't know where I think my mum got it for me once.
It's just like-- - You're taking a piss. - No, 100%. - 100%. - Or as in your reels. - In my videos, yes, in my reels. - I told you to call it Mango Media. - Did you? - Yeah. - When? - The other day. - When I told you I'm calling it Mango Media? - Yeah, but I called it. - No, it was already called Mango Media, I told you. - Nah, check your messages. - I know, but I thought you were taking the piss 'cause I already told you. - No, I was taking the piss 'cause of something you said that, anyway, not important.
- Ask Coop, I talked to him about this like six weeks ago. Anyway. - Yeah, not important. We'll have this tooth later. (laughing) - Yeah, so moving away from being a freelance into a proper media company. - Perfect. - So I can take on bigger projects. - What does that, yeah, so what does that look like in terms of like the actual nuts and bolts of building that out? Because I imagine it would be along the lines of, and yeah, completely different industry and completely different example, but I know what I know. It would be like going from being a PT at a gym to going, I'm gonna open my own gym.
It would be effectively the same thing. There's so many more layers and so many more things that you have to think about and build out and systemize and build process into. So what does that look like? What does the process of that look like? - Well, the biggest areas that we'll need to change is like my customer intake, how I deliver things. When you're a freelancer, you'll get lots of marketing companies and businesses come and go, I need this 60-second video. We need three promo videos from this event. I want to switch that to being like, let's have a partnership and a creative process where production companies get that, freelancers don't.
Freelancers are like, you're the guy, you execute it. That's how it goes. So it's about changing the process in which customers and clients come in and we discuss what they're doing. So there's a lot of backend boring stuff that I gotta do, but it's more about setting it up. So when you approach me, you're coming with the mindset that we're a partnership. We've got a problem that we think a video can solve or a campaign can solve, and we want you guys to shoot it. So I've got an editor now, so it'll be me and him.
And then it just gives you the flexibility to, you know, we want photography, but it's a really tight timeframe. So like, all right, well, I've got to get another photographer in. Whereas if you're hiring Edward Wish Productions, you just think it's just me. Oh, he'll do both, he'll do both sort of thing. It allows me the flexibility to expand essentially. - Yeah, what process do you think and what change do you think is harder, going from Cadbury to what you were doing or going from what you're doing now to that production company? 'Cause I guess it's like- - I think now.
- Yeah, 'cause it's like, it's building a whole thing that didn't exist. Whereas you're creating a role that doesn't exist, but it's just you. So now you've got many different hats you've got to wear and balls in the air and things like that. - Yeah, and it's just how to, for me, it's just like when I was starting out, you just take anything and everything. Whereas like now it's more about niching down, like this is what we're going to do. This is, you know, and what I want to do is blend my documentary filmmaking background with businesses.
So talking about that market trend that we're seeing towards authenticity and like documenting what businesses do, why they do it and deliver these campaigns for six months to a year for these businesses, which is obviously means a lot more work in the short term for me, but it's essentially solving that problem for businesses of like, what are we going to do for the next? So rather than thinking like, well, here's a month of content or like we've got this event on, we need one promo video. It's just like, that's all well and good. And I'll still do that stuff.
'Cause obviously it's money. And like, until we get really established. - And it allows you almost like step in the door to then do the bigger picture stuff. - Exactly, so, but it's more about having more to sink into. And it's more for me, you know, once I've done one event, I've done them all. You know, I've done a couple of weddings. So now I get the gist of it. It's very same samey, you know, I want to- - People's weddings are unique, mate. Everyone's love is unique. You need to know that. - A hundred percent.
- You need to understand that. - Not from a creative point of view. (laughing) - It's the same. I do- - No, but in terms like the delivery is what you want. What they want is virtually the same. So- - Pretty sunsets. - Yeah, and like they run the same. There's everybody, you know, getting ready. Ceremony, drinks, couple photos, you know, reception, speeches, and it's done. - Wow, thanks. Way to take the suck to love right out of a wedding. - Oh, I love them. I love, I love, I absolutely love them. - Did a really good job on the last one you did.
So good for you. - No, I'm just waiting for confirmation to be able to post that, guys. - I cried a little, so. - Yep. That was probably my favorite thing that I've done, but- - Good for you. - Yep, so I can't remember what we're talking about. - Talking about you making the, making the build, the jump to a production company. - Yeah. I think, yeah, the- - What are the landmarks that you, that you've got to build towards to make that happen? - Well, there's financial ones. - Yep. - I'd love to do some 50K months.
- Yep. - And ideally consistently, so I can bring on someone, a second shooter full-time. - Yep. - But the first one would be like a part-time stuff, 'cause my editor's in the Ukraine, love him. And he's a fucking gun, but I want someone in Melbourne. And then in three years, I want a studio space. - Perfect. - So I want to create, the end goal is to create a creative hub within, not, probably not the Moornington Peninsula, 'cause it's a little bit- - Ooh. - Probably more the arc sort of way. I want to create a space, like an open plan office sort of place for creatives with a studio downstairs.
And I've got this whole plan that I want to do. So that's like the, that's the goal at the moment, building up towards that, and building up- - Perfect. - Mango media to the point where it can be. It's great, isn't it? - You actually go to Mango media. - I'm sent. - This is rock me. (laughing) I need it. - All right, see, I've got, all right. I didn't actually get into explaining why I'm calling it Mango media. - Go on. - There's one, the Bango, plush Mango. If you look at any of my reels, he's in the background.
So- - Yep. - He's been there since the start. I need to see our text conversation from the other day. - But Gas Coop, Gas Coop. I was talking to him about this six months ago, six months ago, six weeks ago. And the other thing is, I get really bored with production names 'cause they're all like some sort of camera equipment and productions, film, media on the end. So when it's like Aperture Films or like Iris Productions, it's just like so on the head and just like, there's no personality to it. - Mango media. - It's just like, I don't know.
It's like calling your place like fucking Medicine Ball Gym. It's just like, it's just so, there's nothing to it. - Where were you seven years ago? (laughing) - Virtus is great, but Virtus doesn't scream out of gym. Do you know what I mean? So there's a brand there. - Yeah, that's intentional, right? - But you know me, like I did Mango 'cause it makes people like, it makes them chuckle. And that is me, like I don't take myself that seriously. And I like to be fun with my work. You see my work with like businesses is pretty creative and like I wanna, and it's like lighthearted.
It's not too serious. So I don't want it to be like, I just want it to be unique in the sense it's like, you're gonna remember that. And it's just not like every other production company's name ever. - Yeah, I like it. It's, I mean, it's fruity. - Do you wanna hear my slogan? - Yeah. - It's with a squeeze. It's not actually. - No one squeezes a mango. - You don't know that. - Anyway, good. Hey, so how can people get around Mango Media and Edwisher Productions for now? How can people see your content? How can people book you all of the good stuff?
Go sell yourself. So get grimy, get like. - Instagram, just edward.wisher.productions. If you're having trouble finding me, I'm in Virtus somewhere. On the Virtus page, website is just edward-wisher.com for now. - Wedding stuff, any couples out there, I'll shoot you wedding. - We love love. - Yeah, that's Cadence Wedding Films. Yep, I forgot to mention that. Yep, that's different. - Get around it. - Yep, and yeah, that's pretty much it. Mango Media is yet to be launched 'cause I'm gonna do that properly. So don't worry about that yet. We'll let you know. But hopefully Lockie can have me back in a few months 'cause I'm working on a few cool documentaries towards the end of the year.
- We'll do a documentary pod. - So we are doing something along those lines with Virtus. I don't wanna spoil too much, but what I'm really excited to do is I'm sponsoring, current sponsor of a drug rehab program based out of Hallam, and I'm gonna do a documentary on six people that have gone through their program, basically from more or less selling themselves and everything in their life to being moms, dads, business owners, and there's some really, really cool stuff. So I'm gonna be shooting my first feature documentary towards the end of the year. It's gonna be so phenomenal.
- Hopefully Lockie can have me back on and we can talk about that. - Maybe. We'll give people what they want. - Yep. Well, you know, vote for a good podcast. - Mate, it's been an absolute pleasure. - Thank you so much. Appreciate it, mate. - Have a good day, everybody. - Have a good day!
